World Update 14: Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia + more

[Tom Clayton]

I just came close to closing this thread due to all the negativity. Thankfully, there are still a few civil voices that have kept the thread from flushing itself down the toilet. Consider this the wet asbestos blanket. If the balance tips any more negative, I'll just pull the handle for the hangar-filling foam generators...

[LostPilot]

You know, I used to be extremely unforgiving with textures. It was Black Box that changed my mind and made me realize that an addon can be amazing even if the textures are lacking. I do my best to consider the addon as a whole. I can fall victim to being annoyed with one specific thing or another. The only thing that I think I'm still always going to be a stickler about is flight modeling, and even then I'm not so much going to nitpick every little inconsistency with the POH, I'm more worried about whether or not it feels like I'm flying a plane at all. But there are even a couple addons that I'll forgive a middling flight model on if everything else is on point.

With the Ae-45/145, I feel like I can look right past the lower res textures because unless I've got my forehead up against the panel, I really don't need Carenado-level details on everything. Would I take it? Sure. Is it worth discussing and pointing out texture quality on public forums? Yes, I think so. But I think for sanity's sake, the healthiest way to approach addons is to use the oft-abused term in corporate spheres, holistically. This addon makes me happy. There are things about it I might wish were different or a bit better, but overall I cannot complain with what I just paid for. I'm not everyone obviously. I have been known to speak ill of AH, even. I'm trying to change that by just saying what I do and don't like without the sharp edge, and while still calling out what I like.

I shared some screenshots on the forums of what I thought was a pretty darn nice looking plane, despite not being up to the Carenado level of visual fidelity. I realize now that there were people already primed and ready to tear it apart. Despite having many times been one of those people, I am finding myself today suddenly tired of it all, and wanting to just go back to enjoying the hobby and taking a little disappointment with the jubilation sometimes. I've been a simmer for around 30 years which makes me practically young around some parts, but I think most of those 3 decades were spent just being happy to partake. Something changed a few years back that made a lot of us pick up pitchforks a bit too easily. I hope to be the first of many to throw them away.

[dvj]

I bet your trimotor that AH got a sweet contract with Microsoft to provide exclusive aircraft. Gripes are just par for the course with these offerings, AH or others. In particular was the recent Pilots flying boat sold in a pre-release without telling us it was pre-release. Pilots turned pretty quickly to make improvements. AH also corrected the nose on the Trimotor and audio set. How many users of MSFS now? 10 million at last count? That's a lot of sales opportunity for any developer. I'd do everything possible to grab my share. -d

[DennyA]

I'm going to bow out of this because I now see that *I* am the old man shouting at the wind as far as the self-appointed defenders of quality are concerned. Totally missed every point I made, and hey, if other people also want to focus on finding the 3 things wrong in the pile of 1,037 things that are right, it must be justified, right?

Sigh.

Back to enjoying Czechia...

[IanHenry]

I just came close to closing this thread due to all the negativity. Thankfully, there are still a few civil voices that have kept the thread from flushing itself down the toilet. Consider this the wet asbestos blanket. If the balance tips any more negative, I'll just pull the handle for the hangar-filling foam generators...

I wouldn't normally be as blunt as I maybe came across and I apologise if I've offended anyone, that certainly wasn't my intension, I jut felt that lately some criticism of developers products have been a little harsh.
I wish everyone well and will now bow out of this discussion.

[blanston12]

The negativity has gotten to me also, especially toward AH. There was a comment about the new JF F-28 where someone commented.

Trying not offend anyone, but is this Justflight itself and I hope not Aeroplane heaven?

To which I was offended, but I kept my mouth shut. Now that person has not been involved in this thread, but it was just uncalled for. Personally I have been a great fan of AH and there products, and over the last decade+ I have purchased most of them. I don't have much to add which is not repeating what I said earlier, which I stand by. So I will not comment on this topic more.

[William Njurmi]

The negativity has gotten to me also, especially toward AH. There was a comment about the new JF F-28 where someone commented.



To which I was offended, but I kept my mouth shut. Now that person has not been involved in this thread, but it was just uncalled for. Personally I have been a great fan of AH and there products, and over the last decade+ I have purchased most of them. I don't have much to add which is not repeating what I said earlier, which I stand by. So I will not comment on this topic more.

I want to believe that we are changing opinions which sometimes are worth some money. So closing discussions just because there are differing opinions is a bit undemocratic don´t you think. I dare to say that I have invested quite a sum to flightsim addons and yes, I´m a demanding customer and I don´t want to spend money in certain products/addon makers. Through above mentioned question I could have saved 70 euro if answer would have been "yes" to which I would have been most thankful to this community.

[dvj]

I'm going to bow out of this because I now see that *I* am the old man shouting at the wind as far as the self-appointed defenders of quality are concerned. Totally missed every point I made, and hey, if other people also want to focus on finding the 3 things wrong in the pile of 1,037 things that are right, it must be justified, right?Sigh.Back to enjoying Czechia...

I'm finding the AE-45 a challenge to land and take off. Even with tail wheel lock, it slips and slides all over the runway. Are you finding the same thing?

[blanston12]

William what I gathered of your opinion from your post is that you think AH sucks, which I would not consider a constructive criticism. I have purchased a number of products from JF and JF + AH and I have enjoyed those where AH is involved more than those where they were not. I am not sure if everyone saw it, but Baz posted this on facebook.

A word on sounds, I wish people wouldn't keep beating us up over sounds in the Microsoft releases. A) WE DON"T DO THEM and B) Microsoft have extremely strict regulations on sound performance and decibel levels which ALL contributing devs have to abide by.

Our first project, the DC-3 had sounds produced by Mike Maarse at Sim Acoustics who is the best in the business. We "broke some rules" with the sound pack for the DC-3 which were a little frowned upon.

We have not been able to acquire Mike's services on later projects because he is just too busy which is not surprising. So we use another excellent supplier but they are, to a certain extent, hamstrung also by the rules. We have no control over that.

For our upcoming Lancaster we have been able to acquire Mike's services again so we can promise a real Merlin treat for you. And because this ia our release, there are no rules.

Finally, we have read some pretty depressing comments from people who we thought were our friends on sites like Sim-Outhouse and others. As you can imagine, being accused of "not caring any more" and "having dual standards" for us is just disappointing and is the reason why you won't see us around these sites anymore.

You will get news of updates like the forthcoming and significant Spitfire upgrade and news of new releases like the Lancaster, here on our Facebook pages. But no, not the sites, not anymore.

I feel we have driven him away by not treating him as a friend, and it makes me quite sad and frustrated.

[William Njurmi]

William what I gathered of your opinion from your post is that you think AH sucks, which I would not consider a constructive criticism. I have purchased a number of products from JF and JF + AH and I have enjoyed those where AH is involved more than those where they were not. I am not sure if everyone saw it, but Baz posted this on facebook.



I feel we have driven him away by not treating him as a friend, and it makes me quite sad and frustrated.

Again different point of view, I see business not friendship.

[JohnC]

I downloaded the WU14 last night, and had an overall pleasant experience. After watching the WU preview, and the preview/background on the AE-45, decided to purchase the aircraft as well. I will admit it was an easy sell for me; an aircraft designed by a group of engineers without their company's knowledge is almost always a good story. Usually it means there is a new idea or concept, and they don't have the confidence or top-down support to make it happen. Expectations are set by the price ($10), which should be painless and enjoyable to fly. The following is my own personal experience, I am not claiming that my own perspective is definitive.

- I have a fairly complex setup at home, and route most control inputs through Spad.neXt. I have come to expect there is a 50% chance that levers associated with power settings will need to be remapped with every new add-on. However; throttle, mixture, and prop were all working with my default profile and I am free to fly (good start).

- I love how the AE-45 flies, it's a spot-on 'plausible' flight model. "Plausible" meaning that I know quite a lot about flight mechanics, but ****** all about this aircraft. Long wings with twin engines means static yaw stability should be lacking, and expect significant control coupling at low speeds. True! You must coordinate inputs to fly smooth. However, the aircraft tightens up neatly at cruising speeds. Loving it and the new scenery with WU14.


....uh, the end. It cost less than when my wife and son go to Starbucks for a couple of drinks, and I am pretty sure I got more enjoyment out of it even if I never fly it again. Which isn't fair, because I definitely will fly it again.

[ak416]

Adhering to loudness standards is a good thing and I don't really understand how that could possibly contribute to the quality of the sound package but regardless, putting the blame on Microsoft and third parties seems like it's just sort of passing the buck. If you are hiring developers to contribute to your product and putting your name on it, you can't just throw your partners under the bus and absolve yourself of all criticism and responsibility. You hired them, you take responsibility for the quality of their work.

It's a shame that some people got personal but AH also seems to take some criticisms of their products as personal attacks when that's really not the case and people shouldn't feel discouraged to post negative feedback or criticism or be ridiculed when they do so. As the old saying goes, never mix business with pleasure. You can't be friends with your customers. But as customers it's important for us to remember to criticize the product, not the person. Implying people don't care about the quality of their work or that they are lazy or doing something the wrong way just isn't helpful. Keep it to yourself, stop buying their products and move on if that's really how you feel. We all have our favourites, but nobody likes that annoying guy who always shows up to say how they don't like something in the most passive aggressive way.

[DennyA]

I see at least one person here who's been super-negative on anything AH posting the same criticisms over on the official forum under a different name. (I've been an editor for decades, I can recognize writing styles. ) Sigh. What looks like a stream of negativity is mostly a few guys, some of whom don't even have the plane, posting back and forth between each other.

Not saying there shouldn't be valid pointing out of issues. But this is a $9.99 plane (if you own Deluxe), it's a rare plane that if anyone else but Jorg was running the MSFS show would never have even been made ("Do another Cessna! Those sell best!)), and, amusingly, it has a wonderful sound package recorded from the real plane's engines. But people complain about textures and completely unrelated planes. (The texture mafia kills me. I sit in the pilot seat and fly the plane, I don't stick my nose up to the panel to determine the detail in the on the vynil covering the top.)

I'm finding the AE-45 a challenge to land and take off. Even with tail wheel lock, it slips and slides all over the runway. Are you finding the same thing?

I haven't had that issue in my few flights. Do you have a crosswind going? Crosswind modeling in MSFS is still wackily overdone with taildraggers.

[blanston12]

The criticism about sound kill me the most, as as far as I am concerned, its the really far down on the list of my priorates. If after the model, textures, systems, flight dynamics your biggest complaint is the sounds, I would say that is a pretty good model. Its also the most subjective, someone may have recorded the actual sound with a microphone right next to a real engine. But to the pilot in the cockpit with their headphones on, its going to sound different.

Give me a choice between the same product, one with high quality sound recorded of an actual aircraft and one where they just patched in sounds from a default aircraft that is plausibly close in configuration and is $5 cheaper, I will choose the later.

There is an attitude amongst some that if we are not getting a super detailed study level aircraft with super accurate systems, hyper detailed sounds and the correct count of rivets in the textures its ok to flame it with criticism and do everything possible to make sure it does not succeed in the market, and it bugs me.

[jmig]

There is an attitude amongst some that if we are not getting a super detailed study level aircraft with super accurate systems, hyper detailed sounds and the correct count of rivets in the textures its ok to flame it with criticism and do everything possible to make sure it does not succeed in the market, and it bugs me.

I agree with Joe's statement. However, when the cost of a single airplane approaches and in some cases surpasses $50.00, I as a consumer feel that I have a right to expect more from the developer.

I can’t help comparing a DCS aircraft model to the same model in MSFS. I believe I get more for my money with most DCS models than MSFS models. Full transparency forces me to admit that I rarely pay full price for a DCS model. I either buy it at the early discount phase or wait for one of the sales. However, the comparison of model quality between the two sims, I feel is accurate.

I also agree with you on the sound. Most of us would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the sound of two different engines of similar size and make up in a blind real life test. Yet, we claim to know the difference between the sounds of two simulated engines. I hardly think so. Just like flight models, which will never be the same as a real airplane, engine sounds, to me, merely need to sound reasonably correct.

[ak416]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but most of my complaints with audio are not with the quality of the sound library itself, but it's implementation. Non seamless loops, lack of attenuation, no soundai package, poorly mixed, missing sounds etc. Sound is one of the most immersive aspects of flying for me, I can look past flaws or inaccuracies with textures or modeling or lack of systems depth if the sound is good but a noticeably poor sound package really pulls me out of the experience.

[Tom Clayton]

<Soapbox>
Negative comments in and of themselves will rarely get a thread closed. It's the way they're presented. Without naming names (mostly because I don't remember and don't feel like going back through the entire thread and/or several others), here are a few generic examples of things that will eventually get a thread closed:

Saying something is crap, especially without offering a way to correct it.
Demanding A2A/PMDG quality on a model with a much lower price point.
Personal attacks.
Airing out dirty laundry in public.

And one thing that is always welcome - constructive criticism, especially if you've already identified a potential fix.

A few things to think about...
Should I really expect 4K ultra-detailed textures, jillion-polygon parts in the far back of the cabin, and a flushing toilet in the lav on a model that's only $9.99?
Before bashing the sounds, have you ever heard the real plane in-person and up-close? Hint - YouTube does NOT count.
Before you say the flight dynamics are off, have you flown one? Yes, I know there are pilots here, and their opinions DO count when they have stick time in the same type. But an arm-chair pilot doesn't get to say something's not "believable" about an addon developed by a team led by someone that actually owns and flies the type they're offering, of have recruited actual pilots that have flown them.

Now... With all that said, if a developer makes a claim that doesn't hold up in the release, then you do have a right to bring it up. But remember - keep it constructive, and if at all possible, propose a way to fix the issue. A missed claim still doesn't give you the right to toss manners and courtesy out the window.
</Soapbox>

[DennyA]

Sound can definitely add to immersion, and obvious issues like noticeable loops can be distracting and annoying.

That said, quality of sound that doesn't have technical issues is highly subjective, and there are lots of folks who complain when the sound package is indeed fine if you're not looking specifically for things to complain about online.

For example. I saw someone complaining about the sounds on the OrbX Blackwing being totally wrong -- sounds that Orbx recorded on a real plane with the assistance of the manufacturer. People who complain about using stock sounds even if the real plane has the same engine and configuration. People who complain about excellent sounds because they're able to detect they're not using WWise with the "open the window" test. Etc.

Anyway, it's just wonderful that the Ae-45 sounds turned out to be among the best out there, given all the discussion above. Perhaps devs do listen to feedback that's presented without rudeness and antagonism.

Jmig, DCS planes are amazing. But if we had DCS levels of detail/systems/etc, we'd still only 12 planes available for MSFS. Also, half my DCS fleet is gathering dust because of the time investment to learn that level of system detail for every plane. I'm good with a few study-level planes and let the rest be accessible quickly, please!

Tom Clayton, well-said. I'd say they should make you the moderator, but you already are.

[Paul K]

My tuppence worth - based on my own experience over the years, I agree with much that SeanTK said. Not liking something shouldn't be dismissed as 'hate' or toxicity; there's not much point in having a forum if people can't express the full range of opinions.

On the flip side of the coin, I'm enjoying the DC-3 in MSFS. Polished up by the Duckworks mod, it is the first AH release I've really liked. Clearly a lot of work went into it. Same goes for the Trimotor, especially with the new modified nose. I got it while it was free, not thinking it would get much use ( a bit too vintage for me ) but after a few flights, it's really grabbed me.

As for sounds, they tend to be a bit down my list of priorities. I don't really need 'sound cones' and such when I'm panning round the exterior. Little things like volume changes with open windows are very nice, but broadly speaking, as long as a Liberator doesn't sound like a Cessna, I'm happy. That said, the sound set for the DC-3 is excellent.

[IanHenry]

Ok, I said I'd bow out of this discussion, but having kicked this thing off I feel maybe I should clarify what my point was.

I was merely asking that members get a little perspective when giving opinions on addons, particularly when their comments have the capacity to effect people's livelihoods. Yes those developers, for the most part are professionals and with that comes a certain level of accountability but at the same time I believe building those model's is a passion and trivial negative comments must hurt, and if it was only about the revenue stream there are far more profitable opportunity's in the wider gaming industry.

I wasn't jumping to the defence of any one developer in particular, over the years I've enjoyed products from AH, Justflight, Milviz, A2A the list could go on and on.

It is noticeable to me that many developers are now absent form this forum, Martin from Justflight springs to mind and I wonder why, is it just because with the way the flight sim market has gone it's no longer worthwhile talking to us or is there another reason?

[DC1973]

It is noticeable to me that many developers are now absent form this forum, Martin from Justflight springs to mind and I wonder why, is it just because with the way the flight sim market has gone it's no longer worthwhile talking to us or is there another reason?

If it's anything like my reasons, it's the minority spoiling it for the majority, as it ever was in any hobby or industry really. Developers don't need to be everywhere any more, the FS audience is now large enough to supply us with custom and we don't have to reach out across social media for it - the in-game Marketplace has seen to that.

Remaining only within our own social media channels such as YouTube, Discord and Facebook allows us to shut out rude, condescending or troublesome commentators, as well as those who treat anybody who doesn't use / build the same kinds of aircraft that they want as some kind of idiot, and focus on what the audience that we build for wants. I can tell you personally that cutting off all other social media channels has been the best thing that I've ever done, and I'm afraid that Sim Outhouse will likely go the same way, even though I like talking to most of you - I can get the same communication on my own channels these days.

The only reason I'm here typing this now is because my company, DC Designs, is so successful that recently I've been able to retire at the age of 50 and have a lot more time on my hands. The rivet-counters can pop that in their pipe and smoke it

[blanston12]

The only reason I'm here typing this now is because my company, DC Designs, is so successful that recently I've been able to retire at the age of 50 and have a lot more time on my hands. The rivet-counters can pop that in their pipe and smoke it

Thats awesome Dean, congratulations, its great you could turn something you love doing into a profession.

[jmig]

...
Jmig, DCS planes are amazing. But if we had DCS levels of detail/systems/etc, we'd still only 12 planes available for MSFS. Also, half my DCS fleet is gathering dust because of the time investment to learn that level of system detail for every plane. I'm good with a few study-level planes and let the rest be accessible quickly, please! ...

I fully agree. The only reason I brought up DCS is that if a MSFS developer is expecting me to pay DCS prices, I expect DCS quality. DCS, with a couple exceptions, are combat aircraft. Weapons systems are complex and require a lot of study. I went through a six-month program learning to fly the F-4. That was eight hours a day focusing on one airplane. MSFS aircraft must be simpler.

The closest I have seen in the FXS/P3D/MSFS world were the Milviz F-15 & F-16 models I helped beta test. These models were never released to the FXS/P3D/MSFS world. They were for military use only. They were very close to the DCS models and used VRS TackPack for weapons. I don’t expect to see anything like them in MSFS for a long time, if ever.

That is why I tend to fly GA aircraft in MSFS and combat fighters in DCS.

[dvj]

I'd like to see the hard evidence that a few compaints are killing sales of products to the point that developers are going out of business. Carenado has been building aircraft for many years now with lots of complaints about their flight models. Yet, they continue to offer some very nice eye candy and fun flyers. Same for AH and Just Flight too. Even Captain Sim with all of the really bad press lately is still around. And we have seen new develpers like Got Friends enter the market with very interesting aircraft with compelling flight models. MSFS has a huge player base now compared to FSX. Xbox use has got to be a big gateway for sales. So I really don't belive that developer's are dieing because of a minority of poor reviews.

[Bomber_12th]

More payware aircraft developers than ever (and this list isn't complete) - I haven't heard about any of them going out of business:

- A1R Design Bureau
- A2A Simulations
- Aeroplane Heaven
- Aerosoft
- Ant's Airplanes
- AT Simulations
- Azurpoly
- Bear Studios
- Big Radials
- Big Tires Studios
- Blackbird Simulations
- Blackbox Simulations
- Bluemesh
- BRsim Designs
- Carenado
- CowanSim
- DC Designs
- Flight Replicas
- FlyingIron Simulations
- Flyinside
- Flysimware
- HCG Digital Arts
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Indiafoxtecho
- Inibuilds
- Iris Simulations
- Just Flight
- Got Friends
- Lionheart Creations
- Mario Noriega Designs
- Nemeth Designs
- Oliver Moser
- PMDG
- Rara-Avis Sims
- RealPhysics
- Redwing
- Sim Skunk Works
- Simwork Studios
- Swissmilsim
- Taog's Hangar
- Top Mach Studios
- Wing42

And some really excellent MSFS-native freeware-released aircraft by (examples of the work done by each of these individuals or groups gets quite a bit of use in my sim):

- Dave Garwood
- Deejing
- Got Friends
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Radek Koterbski
- Rara-Avis Sims
- Rotorsimpilot
- Sergey Golosov
- Shepbur
- Technotech
- Tyler Gladman
- Top Mach Studios
- VrilleAPlat