DP Question
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Thread: DP Question

  1. #1

    DP Question

    So I have JU-88's that I use for my BOB campaign. Two versions of the exact same aircraft, a level bomber version (Unit 2/Catagory 2) and a dive bomber version (Unit 2/ Catagory 3). The dive bomber version works perfectly and destroys ships almost at will. However, the level bomber version will go on the bomb run as indicated by the red "Bombers Beginning Bomb Run" text, fly level over the target, the radio will say "Bomben Abgewarfen" but no bombs ever drop ANYWHERE hit or miss and explode. Now, here's the oddest part. If I use the same JU-88 level bomber in Free Flight or in QC with the same bomb load I can destroy targets and see them explode. Even if I miss the target they at least explode. I checked the DP files and they use the same bomb loads (with all bombs being present in the Object DP folder) as my HE-111's that work perfectly as level bombers. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    So I have JU-88's that I use for my BOB campaign. Two versions of the exact same aircraft, a level bomber version (Unit 2/Catagory 2) and a dive bomber version (Unit 2/ Catagory 3). The dive bomber version works perfectly and destroys ships almost at will. However, the level bomber version will go on the bomb run as indicated by the red "Bombers Beginning Bomb Run" text, fly level over the target, the radio will say "Bomben Abgewarfen" but no bombs ever drop ANYWHERE hit or miss and explode. Now, here's the oddest part. If I use the same JU-88 level bomber in Free Flight or in QC with the same bomb load I can destroy targets and see them explode. Even if I miss the target they at least explode. I checked the DP files and they use the same bomb loads (with all bombs being present in the Object DP folder) as my HE-111's that work perfectly as level bombers. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?

    If you compare the JU-88 with the stock game then the equivalent of this plane would be the b25 or G4M2 all three are medium bombers. Both the b25 and the G4m2 are set at unit 1 cantagory 5 so try that with your level bomb missions. it's obviously not working at 2 and three if no bombs are released.

  3. #3
    DW,

    That does make sense and I will definitely experiment with it however, according to the red "Bomber Formation Starting Bomb Run" and the audio over the radio of "Bomben Abgewahrfen" it indicates that the bombs are being released. Also, knowing that certain bomber types work better with their "Attack with" Waypoints set to specific altitudes, is there a recommended altitude for the "Attack With" waypoint for these bombers once the catagory change has been made?

  4. #4
    AI only drops a single (visible) bomb. That's the reason Tango & others made their "AI bomb weapons".

    Level Bombers (Cat 2) will strike static targets only, so no good for attacking moving ships. If you're trying to simulate the early-war level bombing/pattern bombing attacks you're better asking them to attack a particular point & then using the "do not evade" option for shipping & to get them into the bomb-drop zone.

    With cat 3, 4, 5, 10 the AI will attack moving targets, but the default approach for anything other than dive bombers (cat 3 & 10) when attacking shipping is to get behind the target at about 6000ft & then carry out a shallow diving attack (reminiscent of the glide-bombing attack paths used by TBFs).

    Lot's of trial & error required to sort out a convincing looking attack path for shipping attacks - that's why even Rami hated creating maritime raids on convoys!!!

  5. #5
    UT,

    If I use the dive bomber version of the JU88 (category 3) or the Stuka (category 10), they attack moving ships with great accuracy. Never had a problem with these even if the ships are told to evade. The problem here is the level bomber version of the JU88 (category 2) attacking static targets like ports or airfields. They commence the run, apparently drop bombs (indicated by the radio call "bomben abgewarfen) but no bombs explode anywhere hit or miss. I did notice that if I fly the level bomber version of the JU88 in Free Flight or QC and drop from 7-10,000 Ft. the bombs do explode on target or on the ground if I miss but if viewed from the outside they seem to drop a long time appearing as if they're falling from much higher before they hit. Maybe this is a clue regarding altitude and category. I think DW might be right as far as using cat 5 for tactical bombers. I'll experiment with this soon. But that just opens more questions:

    Does a level bomber (4 engine heavy bomber cat 2) attack static targets better at high alt ex 10-25,000 Ft. remaining level throughout the run
    Does a tactical bomber (2 engine med bomber cat 5) attack static targets better at mid to low level alt's 7-15000 Ft. gliding in, descending slowly then dropping over the target
    Does a dive bomber (1 or 2 engine cat 3 or 10) attack moving or static targets better from low level alt's 5-7000 Ft. rolling over and going straight down at the target

    Trial and error may be the only way to find out. And, by doing this, come up with an altitude list/chart for attack waypoint for best category results.

  6. #6

    Lightbulb Hmm... A VERY interesting thread!

    I too have a similar problem with my AI ALPHA Douglas Boston MkIII and Pe-2series115. In one mission the Pe-2s are supposed to attack a road convoy, but never dive in or drop their bombs. I just changed them to 2//3 (as _486_Col_Wolf has his dive bombers) and will try the mission again to see how they behave. BTW: Rami once told me that dive bombers work best between 10,000 and 8,000 feet. My own experience with Wolfi's SB2C, Donation-ware SBDs and opposing Ju-87s bears this out.

    The Bostons, set to level bomb an airfield at night from 5-6000 ft give the same message - "Bomber formation starting bomb run." but there are no explosions or hit messages, not even from my flight - wingmen! I have a dedicated Boston AI in my folder, but it does not show in the drop-down menu. On examination, I found it has no sound file, I'm gonna put into it the same one as my non-AI version, swap in the Soviet texture, and substitute it in place of the currently used planes in the 2 AI flights. And I will make their fam=2 and cat=5, like the B-25 and test the mission again. .

    Again, this thread is a gem! Thanks for the ideas!

    Cheers:

    Shadow Wolf 07
    "De Oppresso Liber"

  7. #7
    SW,

    The difference in the dive bomber altitudes might be whether you're using cat 3 or 10. Mine, both the JU-87 cat 3 and the JU-88 cat 3, work best from 6-8000 Ft.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    SW,

    The difference in the dive bomber altitudes might be whether you're using cat 3 or 10. Mine, both the JU-87 cat 3 and the JU-88 cat 3, work best from 6-8000 Ft.
    Thank you, sir!
    "De Oppresso Liber"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleTgt View Post
    AI only drops a single (visible) bomb. That's the reason Tango & others made their "AI bomb weapons".

    Level Bombers (Cat 2) will strike static targets only, so no good for attacking moving ships. If you're trying to simulate the early-war level bombing/pattern bombing attacks you're better asking them to attack a particular point & then using the "do not evade" option for shipping & to get them into the bomb-drop zone.

    With cat 3, 4, 5, 10 the AI will attack moving targets, but the default approach for anything other than dive bombers (cat 3 & 10) when attacking shipping is to get behind the target at about 6000ft & then carry out a shallow diving attack (reminiscent of the glide-bombing attack paths used by TBFs).

    Lot's of trial & error required to sort out a convincing looking attack path for shipping attacks - that's why even Rami hated creating maritime raids on convoys!!!
    Best I can tell those AI Bombs were mainly visual rather than multi bombs. A single bomb was made to look like a stack . The Dp file is the same as one 2000lb but why not drop one 2000lb bomb itís the same thing.

  10. #10
    And now, the evening news from the BBC Home Service... JU-88's now listed as category 5 inflicted serious damage to the docks at the port of Dover with bombs that now explode as they should. Mr. Churchill, stated that this was due to corrections made to the the aircraft DP files in the German High Command by a stratagist known only as "Deathwind". Give that man a CEEEGAR! Thanks for all your help gentlemen. This also seems to put to rest any questions regarding altitude. These JU-88' dropped their ordinance from 10,000 Ft.

  11. #11
    Happy itís working for you.

  12. #12
    Ummm did someone call me a Nazi? Just teasing I donít care what Iím called Iím just here to have fun like the rest of you and Iím happy your bomber is doing itís job.

  13. #13
    Very interesting topic. I'm having the same problem with the OH B-24 and FDG B-17E and F. At the target waypoint the message "Bomber formation starting bomb run" appears, but no bomb is dropped. I confirmed this by making a quick test mission where I flew next to the bombers during their run, and they didn't drop anything.
    With the B-17 it is hit and miss, sometimes they drop, more often not, but the B-24 always refused to drop.

    Now it is interesting that with the Ju-88 changing the category to 5 apparently solved the issue. I might try that with the 4engine bombers, maybe it helps... Won't have time until the second half of the week, though.

    BTW, I would be careful with changing the unit family to 1, as suggested by Deathwind. This could make the bombers act like fighters when intercepted.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by skylane View Post
    Very interesting topic. I'm having the same problem with the OH B-24 and FDG B-17E and F. At the target waypoint the message "Bomber formation starting bomb run" appears, but no bomb is dropped. I confirmed this by making a quick test mission where I flew next to the bombers during their run, and they didn't drop anything.
    With the B-17 it is hit and miss, sometimes they drop, more often not, but the B-24 always refused to drop.

    Now it is interesting that with the Ju-88 changing the category to 5 apparently solved the issue. I might try that with the 4engine bombers, maybe it helps... Won't have time until the second half of the week, though.

    BTW, I would be careful with changing the unit family to 1, as suggested by Deathwind. This could make the bombers act like fighters when intercepted.
    Did you not ever play the original game with the original dp files and had Betty's trying to dog fight you as well as b-25's? I'm not saying changing it to 1 is necessary or even the best but also it wasn't me who chose it. Microsoft did. My opinion is the 5 was what did the trick but no I'm not buying the thoughts of being intercepted by a fighter squadron of Betty's just yet because it is set at one. You can think that if you want. No problem. The Betty's chief complaint with the stock dp which is set at 1 and five is the guns are too deadly. They don't appear to be breaking formation and trying to move in behind you and blast you out of sky. That's all Folks until next time.

  15. #15
    Skylane,

    I only changed the catagory to 5. I left the unit as 2 (bomber) for the JU-88's. As far as the B-17's, I use the FDG B-17's with AI bombs and they always drop. I think Rami created the AI bomb package but I can't seem to locate them here or in my D/L's.

  16. #16
    Col. Wolf, that's what I was trying to suggest with my post, use Family 2 for bomber and Category 5.
    You will probably know this, but it is also a good idea to open the finished mission file with notepad and check in the list of aircraft near the end of the file if the unit family of the bombers is indeed a 2. Sometimes it happens that this is set correctly in the DP but shows as a 1 in the mis file anyway, again causing the plane to behave unrealistically.

    Thanks for suggesting the ai bombs, I do use these with all bombers for which they are available.

    Deathwind, I didn't want to criticize you with my post. It was merely an observation that bombers with a Unit Family 1in the DP don't behave like bombers are supposed to.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by skylane View Post
    Col. Wolf, that's what I was trying to suggest with my post, use Family 2 for bomber and Category 5.
    You will probably know this, but it is also a good idea to open the finished mission file with notepad and check in the list of aircraft near the end of the file if the unit family of the bombers is indeed a 2. Sometimes it happens that this is set correctly in the DP but shows as a 1 in the mis file anyway, again causing the plane to behave unrealistically.

    Thanks for suggesting the ai bombs, I do use these with all bombers for which they are available.

    Deathwind, I didn't want to criticize you with my post. It was merely an observation that bombers with a Unit Family 1in the DP don't behave like bombers are supposed to.
    itís all good. I donít care about being criticized since Iím use to that that everyday from being married to someone who doesnít like me any more than I like her. Thatís bad I know. Anyway they may not behave the way you want in certain missions if you had it on one but they certainly arenít going to go spreading out and doing maneuvers to get on your tail. Has anybody tried to make the Corsair or Zero a bomber and see what happens? Anyway I have the AI bombs if you canít find them. Itís either here or Simavaition. Best I remember you get one bgl file that looks like a stack of 8 or something like that when dropped. So one bgl, one texture, one object dp of the same as one US 2000lb bomb. So with that being said you have one bomb the same shape as a stack and thatís all you got. You could just drop one 2900 bomb and it would be the same. Of course itís eye candy but a single bgl and one object dp canít make many bombs or too me they didnít look like they were all working. I know a bgl you can place a tree here and one there and they share the same bgl and dp but but here your only dropping the one tree not the others. It just looks like a forest but thatís about it.

  18. #18
    Seems like there may have been more than one AI bomb I know one you had to download a British bomber Halifax or something to get them and the other I forgot but anyway if you want AI bombs fast you can download my Liberator mod and get them from that. Iím on my phone now so thatís the best I can do without having a means to dig through my stuff to find them. You can toss the mod in the wast can if you want but the bombs can be gotten from the upload because I included them so people wouldnít have to go to China and back to get what they need just plug in and play thatís my style. Thatís all folks Iím gonna fly up to the roost pole and Iíll crow at you later I worked hard today and Iím a bit sleepy. Be good or good at it Iím outta hear said the deer who drank my beer.

  19. #19

    Lightbulb

    Skylane,

    I had no idea that the MB would/could randomly change the Unit Family from the A/C DP from 2 to 1! This might explain why my dive bomber version of the DO-17 that I use tries to dogfight you after it attacks ships that you're defending. I'll be sure to check this after writing missions. Thanks!

  20. #20
    OK, I've taken a look into many of my mission Dyn files with wordpad. It seems only Unit Family 2 bombers with a Catagory 3 or 10 (dive bombers) and Catagory 5 (tactical bombers) were switched to Unit Family 1 after editing with MB. Bombers with Unit Family 2, Catagory 2 (level bombers) remain as Unit Family 2 after editing with MB. Any guesses as to why MB changes them to Unit Family 1 after editing? Is it possible that MB considers anything other than level bombers to be fighter bombers and tries to correct what it thinks is a DP mistake?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    OK, I've taken a look into many of my mission Dyn files with wordpad. It seems only Unit Family 2 bombers with a Catagory 3 or 10 (dive bombers) and Catagory 5 (tactical bombers) were switched to Unit Family 1 after editing with MB. Bombers with Unit Family 2, Catagory 2 (level bombers) remain as Unit Family 2 after editing with MB. Any guesses as to why MB changes them to Unit Family 1 after editing? Is it possible that MB considers anything other than level bombers to be fighter bombers and tries to correct what it thinks is a DP mistake?
    Only Microsoft knows but maybe play them both ways by leaving their corrections as is and make another one read only so only you can edit it. It might crash if it canít edit it who knows but if you donít try new things and study nothing is gonna make any sense.

  22. #22
    All the things in this thread have been discussed and addressed over the years,even about calming down the AI guns on the bombers.

    I remember threads on- why to use 3 instead of 10 for dive bombers-how to glide bomb moving ships-why to use unit_family=2 for bombers and category=2,3,4 or 5 and how it effects the bombers.

    The alt for each type is also explained.

    Maybe you should look at the perma stickie thread for CFS2,it answers a lot of your questions and was done by some people with knowledge of the sim and shared it over the last 22 or more years.

    But what do I know?In some people's minds I'm just woman that knows nothing about flight sims and flying.

    Hiede

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by _486_Col_Wolf View Post
    OK, I've taken a look into many of my mission Dyn files with wordpad. It seems only Unit Family 2 bombers with a Catagory 3 or 10 (dive bombers) and Catagory 5 (tactical bombers) were switched to Unit Family 1 after editing with MB. Bombers with Unit Family 2, Catagory 2 (level bombers) remain as Unit Family 2 after editing with MB. Any guesses as to why MB changes them to Unit Family 1 after editing? Is it possible that MB considers anything other than level bombers to be fighter bombers and tries to correct what it thinks is a DP mistake?
    I think the idea is that often smaller and more agile bombers did actually engage in combat with fighters, especially after dropping their bombs, especially if they were not fast enough to run away. The air and cfg file also play an important part in the AI behaviour, and there are plenty of nicely made aircraft that have unrealistic weight or inertia values, or control surface movement/effectiveness etc that affect their behaviour. The aircraft category is only a part of what determines the AI behaviour. There is also clearly a build tin random element that affects behaviour and can often be misleading and lead to false conclusions .

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RWILLS View Post
    I think the idea is that often smaller and more agile bombers did actually engage in combat with fighters, especially after dropping their bombs, especially if they were not fast enough to run away. The air and cfg file also play an important part in the AI behaviour, and there are plenty of nicely made aircraft that have unrealistic weight or inertia values, or control surface movement/effectiveness etc that affect their behaviour. The aircraft category is only a part of what determines the AI behaviour. There is also clearly a build tin random element that affects behaviour and can often be misleading and lead to false conclusions .
    People forget this is still just a game and some compromises have to be made for the aircraft to do their job the right way.

    The 1% planes were supposed to be as close as could be to the real thing,but the dive bombers and other bombers had problems attacking targets.

    The Beaufighter by Bismark 13 in 2009 would just gain alt.when it was supposed to attack .It was set at Cat 4.The problem was the air file and the MOI.The person that made the air file said it was to specs and that is was a dp file problem.Well in 30 minutes Talon put in a new air file and it worked and just needed some fine tuning.Pen32Win made the adjustments and by the end of that day all worked fine.

    I just looked at the thread by Talon from March 2009 when the Beaufighter was released,it explains a lot.

    I've been around CFS2 since 2002 and know more about it then you think,I just don't say much.

    Hiede
    Last edited by Hiede; March 20th, 2023 at 15:22.

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