Taking David and Mick's B-47 out for a spin. Part 1.

[Sbob]

To be honest, I tried to stay away from the B-47. Its a beauty of an airplane but I had already burned out logging hours in Alphasim's B-52 and I really didn't want to get into another Boeing "flat flier". Still, this is one heck of a download and my curiosity got the best of me.

What you get is split between two main folders, early models/prototypes and the later "meat and potatoes" models that SAC relied on while the B-52's were being built.
Boeing churned out a ton of these aircraft (2,047) in Wichita , SAC based them across the USA and at "reflex" bases overseas, and Jimmy Stewart made a movie with one of them. From the early 1950's to the mid 1960's they were everywhere. David included a slew of the main models, from the early prototypes and "test" birds to the recon variants with their longer noses and antenna pods and just about everything in between. Mick did the texture work and really knocked it out of the park. You'll find a favorite, eventually.

The flight dynamics feel "right" and there's more than enough reading material included to get the bird sorted. Taxi characteristics are great with a minimal "elephant walk" feel. Just be sure you do two things prior to take off, set the flaps to "down" (they have two positions, which is accurate) and make certain you zero that "cheater bug" on your attitude/bank gauge. If you forget to center the bug, you're basically S-O-L until you get back on the ground.
The way the plane sits on the ramp is the way it flies and lands, try not to vary the nose up/down attitude too much (+/- five degrees or less MAX) so you don't get in trouble. Line up and open the throttles, expect a long take off roll and the plane will, basically, fly itself off the runway at around 155 kts (or is it MPH? This a VERY early jet). Again, keep the "cheater bug" centered when climbing or on the glide slope and use the throttles (easy now..) to control altitude and descents, and you've mostly got it. If you need to slow down fast, just remember that you don't have spoilers. Well, you do in a way, they are called Landing Gear and a quick check of the docs shows you can drop the gear almost up to the max speed.

Getting into the pattern for landing isn't too hard. Drop the gear and bring the throttles back to idle. Drop the flaps around 200 to 250 "what-evers" and aim for a pattern speed around "165-170". Again, keep the attitude bug happy and use slight throttle adjustments to stay on the glide slope. Cut the throttles and try to stall the bird about one or two feet above the runway and you should touch down on the two main gear at the same time. All it takes is practice and time and the B-47 will reward you with some great flights. Make sure to read the docs, you'll find out that drag chute is more of a stability chute and it gets deployed earlier than you'd think. Over-all, remember that the B-47 was the best solution for its time. These were very early jet engines and they took forever to spool up and down. The reality was that Curtis LeMay liked the B-47 about as much as he liked the B-58 Hustler. Both planes were beautiful but both planes could be called, at best, medium range bombers with limited payloads.

In Part 2 I'll get into some small edits you may want to do to make finding the right bases a little easier as well as fixing one of the strobe lights and adding cockpit lights for night flying. I'll also cover some Easter Eggs like changing the colors of the crew flight suits (and why) and adding a "Talking George the Nav" effect.

[Mick]

Great report!

I haven’t flown the B-47 so I was really pleased to read your pilot report.

I’ve never flown anything nearly as big or complicated as the ‘47.

Actually I’ve never had much time to fly anything, but never a big multi-engine jet. So I found the B-47 rather intimidating.

The B-45 was simpler, though it had a few oddities of its own. I might take it for a few circuits and bumps to get some big jet time.

[ViperPilot2]

Your 'report' was so informative and interesting to read that I couldn't resist, and downloaded the package.

I also cut and pasted your Flying Tips to a Notepad file on my tablet so I can have them at my fingertips when I take the Stratojet for a spin.

Thanks again!

[Mick]

Your 'report' was so informative and interesting to read that I couldn't resist, and downloaded the package.
I also cut and pasted your Flying Tips to a Notepad file on my tablet so I can have them at my fingertips when I take the Stratojet for a spin.
Thanks again!

Here’s a suggestion. There are flying tips (not all the same as those slob posted) in the kneeboard reference (or is it the checklist - I still can’t access my FS stuff to check.) You might want to add your tips to that, to make a combined file with everything in it that you can pull up within the sim from the kneeboard.

[this4dave2]

Thank you, Bob, for the report on our aircraft. when i do a model, I try to make it as near as possible to the real aircraft. I am not always successful, but I try. I think the hardest part was figuring out the Flaperon operation which was with the flaps down and an aileron defect upward the flaperon needed to spill (move from down to the horizontal position) which on the real aircraft was to reduce lift on that wing to assist with banking. As you said the aircraft did not have spoilers. But the real aircraft did have a landing gear function called drag. The rear main and both outrigger gears were lowered to assist in slowing the aircraft down when speed was reduced to about 175 the nose gear would lower, I was able to recreate the operation in the contact points.

I hope everyone likes the B-47's

David

[Sbob]

Part 2, and its a doozie..
Shessi, I know its a long post but it is what it is.


These are edits to the aircraft.cfg files to give a better understanding of where these birds flew from. Just copy and paste the lines into your CFG files and it will be easier to start or set up flights. The stuff between the {}s is info only and should not be copied or pasted.

I promise I'll get to the lighting edits and a small panel mod later.


EARLY TYPES


ui_variation=XB-47, 1st Prototype KBFI KMWH


ui_variation=B-47A, Service Test KBFI KMWH KEDW


{The early prototypes and test aircraft were built in Seattle and tested mostly at Moses Lake aka Grant CO Int'l in Washington before heading to Muroc/Edwards AFB. Fly into Grant CO. sometime and you'll understand why (its also fairly rural).}


ui_variation=B-47B early, SAC Movie KMCF


{The B-47 scenes in the SAC movie were filmed at MacDill AFB, Fl.}


ui_variation=B-47B early, 306th BW KMCF


ui_variation=B-47B early, ECM Test KVPS

{Eglin AFB.}


ui_variation=TB-47B, 35206th FTW, KIAB 010


{The TB-47's were all based at McConnell AFB near Wichita. All crews who flew or maintained the B-47 got their start here, so should you. Just be careful in the pattern, there are a LOT of airports where you can land by accident. Smokey Hill is a bombing and gunnery range just north-east from Tinker AFB and makes for a fine waypoint.}


ui_variation=TB-47B, 35206th FTW, KIAB 042


ui_variation=JTB-47B, KFFO Wright Air Dev. Ctr.


{Wright Patterson AFB, the air force home of all things logistical.}


ui_variation=XB-47D, 2nd Prototype KBFI KMWH KEDW




LATER TYPES


ui_variation=B-47B updated, 19th BW KMCO


{McCoy/Pinecastle AFB, Orlando, Fl.}


ui_variation=B-47B updated, 320th BW KRIV


{March AFB, Riverside, Ca.}


ui_variation=B-47B updated, AFCS KBLV


{Scott AFB, Illinois.}


ui_variation=B-47E early, Bomb Toss Test


{Probably KMWH, KEDW, or KIAB? Could also be in Fla. so I haven't added a base.}


ui_variation=WB-47B, 9th WRW, Earlier KBLV


ui_variation=B-47B updated, AACS KBLV


ui_variation=WB-47B, 9th WRW, Later KBLV


ui_variation=B-47E early, 98th BW KLNK


{Lincoln AFB, Ne.}


ui_variation=B-47E early, 509th BW KPSM


{Pease AFB, Portsmouth N.H. Callsign "Tiger". The 509th deployed to an RAF base, possibly Diego Garcia, where they found an entire stuffed tiger in an immaculate display case. Somehow, the tiger went AWOL and wound up in New Hampshire.. The 509th currently flies the B-2 out of Whiteman AFB.}


ui_variation=B-47E updated, 307th BW KLNK


ui_variation=B-47E updated, 380th BW KPBG


{Plattsburg AFB, NY (Vermont) The 380th and 509th BWs were the only BWs to later fly the FB-111 where they dominated USAF Bomb Comps for many years.}


ui_variation=EB-47E, 301st BW KLCK


{Lockbourne Air Force Base, Oh. The EB's would typically forward deploy to AFBs in Alaska, the UK, Japan, and Northern Africa. See "Reflex Bases" for more info.}


ui_variation=EB-47E, Navy KNTD


{Pt. Mugu NAS, Ca.}


ui_variation=JB-47E, Flight Test Ctr., 221 KEDW


ui_variation=QB-47E, Drone


{Drones can be weird. I don't list a base because they moved around, as needed.}


ui_variation=RB-47E early, 91st SRW KFOE


{Forbes AFB, Ks. Callsign "RAVEN". See the earlier B-50 thread.}


ui_variation=RB-47E late, 55th SRW KFOE


ui_variation=NRB-47E, Flight Test Ctr. KEDW


ui_variation=NRB-47E, Wright Air Dev. Ctr. KFFO


ui_variation=WB-47E, 55th WRS KMCC


{McClellan AFB, Sacramento, Ca.}


ui_variation=RB-47H, 55th SRW, 53-4296 KFOE


ui_variation=RB-47H, 55th SRW, 53-4288 KFOE


ui_variation=RB-47K, 338th SRS KFOE

[Sbob]

Part 2A, this one is a quickie and its a "down and dirty" way to add a small Easter Egg to your aircraft.
You'll need a basic graphics prog (PSP, GIMP, etc.) and Martin Wright's DXTBMP program.

You'll be doing a really fast and painless edit to the crew coveralls found in each texture folder in the file named "air crew.BMP".

Open this file in your graphics program. Mick did a great job in labeling everything and you'll only need to "flood fill" the box named "FLIGHT SUIT".

Chane your fill color to one of the following RGB values:

88, 120, 152 - Boeing or Civilian blue/gray. Great for the prototype birds.

206, 85, 13 - Orange, used for long over-water flights, "more hairy" flight testing, or flights in the Arctic.

0, 0, 66 - "Old SAC" dark blue. Jimmy's flight suit from the movie or the really early SAC flight suits.

57, 63, 46 - New flight suit darker green, newbies and Academy Grads/Ring Knockers. For when you want to look your best on the flight line.

..and then save your work. I told you this was easy.

Now, all you need to do is start DXTBMP and open the file you just edited. Its actually easier to do everything in DXTBMP, but you get the idea..
"Save as" DXT1 (no alpha), DXT3, or Extended 32-bit 888-8 (your choice) and you're done.

If your pilots look like concrete statues, you probably saved them as standard Win 24 bit BMPs.

If you can't run DXTBMP or you don't have a prog that shows RGB values, I can zip something up and post it here or at Flightsim.com. Or, shoot me a PM with an e-mail addy and I'll send them out.

[Mick]

Sorry sbob! No insult intended in my earlier post. Autocorrect changed sbob to slob.

When I wrote this post it tried to turn it into snob.

I hate this infernal device!

It reminds me of a joke. A priest, a minister and a rabbit walk into a bar. The barkeep asks the rabbit what he wants and the rabbit says, “I dunno, I’m only here because of Autocorrect.”

[Sbob]

Your autocorrect is pretty astute.

[this4dave2]

[QUOTE=Sbob;1297354]Part 2, and its a doozie..

ui_variation=TB-47B, 35206th FTW, KIAB 010


{The TB-47's were all based at McConnell AFB near Wichita. All crews who flew or maintained the B-47 got their start here, so should you. Just be careful in the pattern, there are a LOT of airports where you can land by accident. Smokey Hill is a bombing and gunnery range just north-east from Tinker AFB and makes for a fine waypoint.}


ui_variation=TB-47B, 35206th FTW, KIAB 042


Bob the above portion of #6 is incorrect.

I was stationed at McConnell AFB from 1958 till 1961 and the FTW was the 3520th not 35206th. in July 1958 it became the 4347th Combat Crew Training Wing and became part of SAC at the same time. most of the B-47s but not all were given the SAC emblem and the Stars with blue background sash on the nose. Infact, I worked on the TB-47B 50-0010 when it was retired and sent to the bone yard in late 1959 it still had the air training command emblem on its nose however it was hardly visible.

Smokey hill also was a B-47 combat wing base but in March 1957 Smokey Hill Air Force Base was redesignated Schilling Air Force Base. Smokey hill AFB AKA Shilling AFB was located at Salina, Kansas which is north of Wichita Kansas


David

[Sbob]

Ahhh, OK.
I always associate "Smokey Hill" with the bombing range (located at approx. 38 37 N and 98 01 W).
I looked it up and the old AFB is now "Salina" or KSLN.

I grew up in Maine, really close to the IP for the Ashland Bomb Plot.
It was normal to see B-52s out of Loring and FB-111s out of Plattsburg and Pease heading north between the two lakes.
I remember seeing pretty much every plane from the 42nd BW heading back to Loring one afternoon and I told my folks we really needed to watch the news that night.
That was when the Pan Am plane blew up over Lockerbie, Scotland.

[Wingnut172N]

Where can I snag this B-47?!

[anels9]

@wingnut

library section under FS2004 Military jets

[Mick]

BTW, the air base the planes were based at is given in the Description section of the UI entries in the aircraft.cfg file, except for a few that I forgot to put it in there.

[Sbob]

Yeah, all I did was add the four letter Airport ID code for the base (or what used to be the base).
It makes it easier to just use the four letters than to go hunting in the State and City sections.

Mick, since you did the research, were the "bomb toss" and "drone" variations located at a specific AFB?
Roswell and Cannon AFB (New Mexico) are starting to sound plausible but it takes a lot of digging to find the answers.

David, I want to finish putting together the "Reflex" bases list. Any chance you would know about Morocco?
I know the base at Sidi Slimane (try saying that three times fast) or GMSL was used but what about Nouasseur (LFOE)?
It seems like LFOE could handle bombers but was used more for fighters? Wiki also lists "Boulhaut" but its un-documented, much like "Ben Guerir".

For Japan, I'm leaning more on Misawa and Kadena but were there others like Yokota?
This was before Japan "cracked down" on US bombers in the mid-1960s.
I was homeported in Sasebo on my first sub in the late 1980's and its a tricky (and delicate) subject.
Japan wanted us there, but they also didn't in a way.

[this4dave2]

Bob
Sorry I don't know about any reflex bases except the ones I was at which isn't much it was a long time ago. They were RAF Greenham Common and RAF Brize Norton both in England don't remember dates but was between 1961 and 1963
David

[Mick]

The drones were based at Eglin AFB in Florida.

I don’t know about the bomb toss plane. Possibly Edwards but that’s a guess. Possibly Elgin. Maybe Edwards because that’s the test center, or maybe Elgin because that’s the Air Proving Command base where most weapons delivery testing is done. If the plane ever joined the Air Force we could figure it out from the unit assignment, but it belonged to Boeing during testing and then it was scrapped without ever being turned over to the Air Force. I don’t think that Boeing had a place for that sort of work, at least not if actual bombs or practice shapes were dropped. I don’t know for certain if they actually dropped or tossed anything, but it would seem that they must have.

I agree that Roswell and Cannon seem plausible.

[Mick]

Ok, I dug out my references and at least some of the testing was done at Eglin. So probably all of it was.

There’s a photo of the Boeing crew posed in front of the striped bird and the photo says it was taken at Eglin, and the text mentions that plane and a couple others doing the bomb toss testing there.

A couple USAF planes were also used, but I don’t think they had the red and white stripes.

[Sbob]

David, don't be sorry. That told me a LOT more than I knew.

I was thinking more along the lines of RAF Fairford and Mildenhall.

Morocco is turning into a pain in (stock) FS.
GMSL ("Sidi") is there but it could use some work.
The airport code I used for Nouasseur is wrong but I'm pretty sure its there.
Ben Guerir was a bust and the airport code may as well be "NADA". There's a small town near by and a power line, eventually you'll find a road.
Unless the co-ordinates I found were wrong.


To give you folks an idea of what its like to find these old bases, let me give you an easy one to find. Ramey AFB. I'll give you a hint, its still there and its in Puerto Rico.

[Sbob]

Well, we're getting there.

I found some info about that "bomb toss" stuff. You can find stock footage on YouTube in black and white, but it looks like they filmed a plane with the regular SAC paint.
That isn't saying your version is wrong in any way, but it does pull up a bunch of questions.
The written documentation is pretty thin. I've seen sources that listed it as a "steady 2 G climb" or "steady 4 G climb" until the plane was on its back then followed by a "Dutch roll" until the plane was level again. The bomb bay doors were opened at about 45 degrees attitude and the "gadget" was kicked out just before it got to 90 degrees. The drop itself was basically automatic and the "K System" bomb/nav "computer" did the grunt work.

What makes sense to me so far- The 2G climb sounds more plausible. You would come in low and as fast as you dared. Execute the climb and the bomb drop (keeping the throttles pinned) then roll level at the top of the loop and dive back down to pick up more speed. Where ever the "gadget" landed was going to have a bad day and you really wanted to get the heck out of there ASAP. If your exit course wasn't exactly 180 degrees to the bomb run course, no big deal. Just get the heck OUT of there.

My next question is, was this more of a stunt or more like SAC doctrine? Meaning, did EVERY air crew have to practice it at least once? One thing I did find, doing that maneuver ONCE put a huge strain on the wings and fuse.

[this4dave2]

Well, we're getting there.


My next question is, was this more of a stunt or more like SAC doctrine? Meaning, did EVERY air crew have to practice it at least once? One thing I did find, doing that maneuver ONCE put a huge strain on the wings and fuse.

Yes it did put a strain on the wing roots So, in 1958 to strengthen the wing mountings. The program was known as "Milk Bottle", named after the big connecting pins, that were replaced in the wing roots. I believe every crew had to do it at least once in training until that maneuver was done away with whenever that was, I don't know.

David

[Sbob]

I believe every crew had to do it at least once in training until that maneuver was done away with whenever that was, I don't know.

David, what came next was (and still is) known as a "lay down". The bomb has a timer that can run somewhere between 15 minutes to 6 hours. The aircraft flies in low and fairly fast and also drops the bomb at low altitude. The bomb is equipped with either a parachute or a "ballute" (basically a balloon) to keep it steady and slow it down. Once the bomb makes contact with the ground, the timer starts.

There is de-classified footage of Lay Down testing on YouTube with the B-61 bomb (aka The Silver Bullet).

[Mick]

Well, we're getting there.

I found some info about that "bomb toss" stuff. You can find stock footage on YouTube in black and white, but it looks like they filmed a plane with the regular SAC paint.
That isn't saying your version is wrong in any way, but it does pull up a bunch of questions.
The written documentation is pretty thin. I've seen sources that listed it as a "steady 2 G climb" or "steady 4 G climb" until the plane was on its back then followed by a "Dutch roll" until the plane was level again. The bomb bay doors were opened at about 45 degrees attitude and the "gadget" was kicked out just before it got to 90 degrees. The drop itself was basically automatic and the "K System" bomb/nav "computer" did the grunt work.

What makes sense to me so far- The 2G climb sounds more plausible. You would come in low and as fast as you dared. Execute the climb and the bomb drop (keeping the throttles pinned) then roll level at the top of the loop and dive back down to pick up more speed. Where ever the "gadget" landed was going to have a bad day and you really wanted to get the heck out of there ASAP. If your exit course wasn't exactly 180 degrees to the bomb run course, no big deal. Just get the heck OUT of there.

My next question is, was this more of a stunt or more like SAC doctrine? Meaning, did EVERY air crew have to practice it at least once? One thing I did find, doing that maneuver ONCE put a huge strain on the wings and fuse.

That may confirm what I’d suspected, that only the Boeing plane had the fancy colors and the two USAF planes used in testing didn’t get the stripes. The Habermehl & Hopkins book has nice color photos of the Boeing plane but only black & white shots of the other two. One appears to have white wing tops with no markings on them and the other one looks like it had a black top on the fuselage. No fancy strips on either one. The video might not have been shot during the tests; it may have been shot during SAC crew training or practice; must’ve been if the plane in it has standard SAC markings.

My references agree with David’s recollection that all SAC crews had to learn the technique, and for a while it was standard operational procedure. Despite special inspections to make sure the strongest and most agile airframes practice the maneuver, several planes were lost. After a while SAC adopted the lay down tactic the low altitude flying still wore out airframes and the B-47’s service life came to an end. But by then SAC had the B-58 for its medium bomber (and still would’ve preferred that the money was spent on more B-52s.)

The H&H book says that fighter pilots drafted into SAC were more comfortable with the maneuver than experienced bomber pilots (are we surprised?) and that all B-47 pilots were given basic aerobatic training. The B-47 was aerobatic but most SAC pilots were not, and while the airplane was happy doing loops and rolls, it wasn’t strong enough to stand up to high speed maneuvering in turbulent low level air.

The book says the pull-up was at 2.5G.

Long ago I read somewhere that the US scored a victory over the USSR in an arms control agreement by trading away the worn-out B-47 fleet in exchange for something of greater value, but I don’t recall any details and there’s nothing like that in any of my references.

[Sbob]

The book says the pull-up was at 2.5G.

Sometimes, I scare myself.

Before I forget, some quick edits you may want to add. We'll fix a wonky tail strobe and add some cockpit lighting for those night flights.
These edits are quick and easy.

Let's start with the strobe.

Open the aircraft.cfg file for both folders and find the [lights] section. Copy the line below and change the "light.0=" line to:


light.0=1, -69.96, 0.01, 22.85, fx_beacon , //aft


Save and, boom, you're done.

To add cockpit lights, stick with that [lights] section and add the following lines:

light.X=4, 21.00, 0.00, 4.50, fx_dsb_vclight_red, //AC
light.Y=4, 16.00, 0.00, 4.50, fx_dsb_vclight_red, //CO

The [lights] sections are different in the two folders, make sure you change the X and Y values to sequential numbers.
In the Early folder's .cfg file, X is 3 and Y is 4. In the Late folder's .cfg, X is 8 and Y is 9.

You should also check both .cfg files and make sure there is ONLY ONE [lights] section.
I think I found a second, duplicate, [lights] section in the Late folder's .cfg file. Go ahead and remove it, you don't need it.

One quick note, I used the deep red cockpit lights you can find in those DSB freeware aircraft. Feel free to use whatever cockpit light fx file you like. When in doubt, check the [lights] section of a plane you like and look for "light.X=4", the 4 tells you its a cockpit light.

We're almost done. Now, let's put the cherry on top.
We're going to make the 2D panel match the VC at night and its super easy.

You'll want to go into your main EFFECTS folder and find your VC light fx file.
Right-click on it and COPY it to your desktop.
Highlight the copy and right click. Use the OPEN WITH>NOTEPAD option.
You should see a bunch of text.

Look near the bottom of the file in the last section and you'll see lines like this:

Color Start=70, 70, 70, 1
Color End=142, 130, 130, 0

Those first three sets of numbers are the RGB values.
What we want are these:


Color End=142, 130, 130, 0

Write them down somewhere or highlight all three and COPY them. Don't worry about that fourth 0, its just an alpha value and we don't need it.
You can dump that copy you made of the FX file now, we're done using it.

Now, we need to open the panel.cfg files for both B-47 folders (not at the same time, jeeze..).
Down near the bottom again, you'll see this:

[Color]
Day=192,192,192
Night=102,102,102
Luminous=148,136,107

Retype these lines just below but add two "/" characters at the start of each line. You should wind up with something that looks like this:




[Color]
Day=192,192,192
Night=102,102,102
Luminous=148,136,107

//[Color]
//Day=192,192,192
//Night=102,102,102
//Luminous=148,136,107



You want to save some kind of copy or at least a reminder of what the original numbers were. The // part tells FS to ignore everything to the right on that line.
For us, it says that its the original copy and we shouldn't goof with it if we want to try some color combos out. It is VERY handy if you come back to an old project after a couple of years.

Now, lets add the new night lighting that matches the VC. All we need to change is the Night= line to the RGB values we found in the FX file.

[Color]
Day=192,192,192
Night=155,0,0
Luminous=148,136,107

Now, one little problem with this edit is that everything is red and nothing is blue or green. This can cause problems with how the gauges get displayed (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't). I have my own personal favorite settings that add some blue and green for the gauges with this deep red color, so what we finally wind up with is this:

[Color]
Day-192,192,192
Night=120,4,4
Luminous=148,136,107

Oh, one extra bonus. Due to how the canopy looks shiny from the inside of the VC, we now have some extra night vision.
It might look like you ate enough carrots to feed a herd of rabbits but remember that FS9 tends to make night time look like its coal black.
Try it for a while and you'll start to appreciate the effect, its a rush and a half to fly through clouds at night.

My only other suggestion for the VC is your view angle. I have FS set up so my VC view is always set to ".5". With the B-47, I kick up one notch to ".75" (I hit the + key once) and the 2D and VC views look almost identical.

[Mick]

Hmmmmm…

Did they have strobe lights back in the days when the B-47 was in service?

I don’t know when they came in, but I’m suspicious that they came in that early. I was just a kid in those days and I have no direct recollection. I have the idea that they came along in the sixties but I’m really unsure about that.

I do know that I didn’t see anything that looked like a strobe light in any of the gazillion photos I perused during the project but that doesn’t prove anything. I wasn’t looking for that kind of details.

Maybe David will chime in. He spent years up close and personal with B-47s. I’ll bet he remembers.