Tubeliner Suggestions.
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Thread: Tubeliner Suggestions.

  1. #1

    Tubeliner Suggestions.

    Good evening all.

    I have always preferred piston engine aircraft and VFR flying for my flight sim enjoyment.
    That said I’ve recently done some turbo prop flying for the VA I belong to.
    I definitely enjoy the challenge of IFR flying though I usually keep it old school.
    I’m interested in learning some more up to date methods.
    I would like to find something more modern using an FMS and GPS that uses a realistic autopilot and procedures.
    I don’t really want to spend $100 plus for a tubeliner if that isn’t necessary.
    Looking for suggestions and experiences good or otherwise.

    Cheers!
    I7-6700K @ 4.3, ASUS Z170-P, 32GB DDR4 2133, RTX 2070 8GB, Windows 10 Pro, P3Dv5.3 HF2

  2. #2
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Well not exactly a tubeliner but I would suggest a mini biz jet such as the Carenado Hawker XP850 (HS125) or similar smaller GA size aeroplane with jet performance and no props. The Hawker XP850 has a very nice glass cockpit with the FMS GPS stuff, reasonably simply aeroplane with simple systems but they have a collection of very good online video tutorials for the systems to get you used to the button pushing business! Works fine in P3DV5.

  3. #3
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Thunderstreak - it may help you to appreciate that there is a wide variety of aeroplanes (tubeliners) out there reflecting differing design and system and eras. The quality or otherwise of the model and systems leads to much debate about the so called ' study level' sim model vs the 'lite' which effectively means the depth and complexity of the modelling of the aircraft and its systems. So that is a good starting point to think about your choices.

    All sim models try to recreate -simulate-the real aeroplane (they way it flew and handled the way it looked, the way it sounded, its cockpit, its instrumentation and last but most importantly the quite complex real life mechanical and electrical systems of an aeroplane. I think it would be safe to say that can be accomplished using computer programming skills and the simulator program in an astonishingly effective way particularly with P3D. So lets say flight simulation is sufficiently sophisticated for you to now be able to experience on your desktop PC the experience of flying a real tubeliner or any other aeroplane you can think of - IF the modeller or developers have the skill set to make this happen.

    Now you have been experiencing what I call basic aeroplanes that is simulated aeroplanes that were relatively simple mechanically and electrically - nothing wrong with that - it is the reality of aviation and aviation design history that all aeroplanes were simple and followed basic concepts and demands of engineering and design to do what they had to do fly! So that means as technology advanced, systems design improved etc etc the aeroplanes changed in other words they became bigger, faster and more complicated. The degree of complexity varied according to the solution or technology of the time of what was possible but the general direction especially since about the 1940's on has been on the increasing use of automated systems made possible by the marriage of electrics and electronics. This has been applied in varying degrees over time to various aeroplanes. This is where what you want becomes difficult because in real life aeroplanes went from being shall we borrow Boeings description here of being first generation, then classics then New Generation or NG. At each point there was a significant shift up in the use of automated systems and electronics - so that is the major clue how complex that will be or what it is will depend on the aeroplane designers and builders, and when it was built or used.

    So depending on the era of flight of an aeroplane it will be mostly electro-mechanical (analogue) in its operation and systems (think your average GA aircraft or older piston engined airliner. Then the next generation or classics will begin to have a mix of electro-mechanical or analoque systems and some electronics (radio and navaids and autopilot and maybe even engine controls) then the generation after that become digital that is all the systems (mechanics, hydraulics and electrics are now being run by digital electronic systems (FMC's EFIS ETC) and you end up with one or two monitor screens capable of displaying all the information and capable of controlling all those systems via a few buttons or even touch screen capacity)

    So think of your choice this way - the old FSX had a couple of good examples the Cessna 172 and the Beech Baron, you could fly the old analoque style version with its typical instruments and navaids or you could fly the hybrid or next generation with the Glass screen replacing the instruments and some basic capacity to manipulate your sim flight via navigation and systems though those controls (ala FMC and GPS). You could get an idea of a 747-400 but it was basic and very lite if you wanted the closest approximation to the simulated model of the real thing then you paid out the $$$ and got yourself a PMDG 747 for example. Now when you do that your confronted with a 'study level' simulator model that is all those real world systems are recreated and controllable via the mouse or key or whatever and you have to learn them and know them to be able to use them otherwise your in for a whole world of extreme frustration. So you don't get a 5 page manual you get a 500 page manual just like the real thing and of course you now need some serious PC grunt to make it all work! Then of course you are now in another world altogether where keeping this show on the road PC wise can be a real pain! No shortage of forum discussions (and numerous websites) on various models and systems etc etc that illustrate this journey and these issues. Now of course this is another dimension with simulation, once you go to this level of 'tubeliner', you find you have to have a grasp or real world ATC procedures and Instrument Flight rules and procedures etc PLUS how the model works with or interprets this stuff for you in the sim (Your FMC and GPS for example).

    Now we come to the final point aeroplanes ain't aeroplanes so the way Airbuses work and operate is very different to the way say Boeings work and operate and I always find it amusing to read various threads on other forums discussing why X is better than Y or why Y is broken or X needs an update etc etc. In the real world there is a very good reason why you do what is called a type endorsement very few pilot are multiple type endorsed because you have to get to know the idiosyncrasies and systems of each type and they are different even if the aerodynamics of flight is not.

    Thats why I think the Carenado XP850 is good start - it is in real life a simple aeroplane with simple engines and systems but nicely brought into the digital age with glass screens and electronic controls as the real world aeroplane was and so while you battling with learning all about that complex IFR stuff Carenado support you with good online video tutorials about how to do this or do that!

    Whatever you choose there will be a model or aeroplane available to do it - it is what makes Flight Simulation such an enjoyable pastime - you can be as serious as you want or as simple as you want - you can bush bash in a simple piston, get dragged about in a WW2 piston monstrosity or go the whole hog in a tubeliner with all the bells and whistles! Have fun!
    Last edited by BendyFlyer; January 18th, 2022 at 02:41. Reason: general edit

  4. #4
    BendyFlyer, I have to thank you for putting forth such a detailed and well thought out explanation. I think you managed to cover all of the points needed to make an educated decision on my “tubeliner” purchase.

    This is my fault totally, I kept my original post pretty short and perhaps vague. Perhaps I should have offered a little about my experience in the flight sim world. I’ve been at this regularly since FS9 and CFS2.

    I have and enjoy a number of “study level” or somewhat complex sim aircraft as I prefer realistic aircraft and systems management. I just never got into modern airliners. I did though, back in the FS9/FSX days fly the CS 707, my one and only jet airliner!

    I have the full catalogue of A2A planes, most of the Milviz piston aircraft (and turbine Otter), PMDG DC-6, etc.
    I also have a bunch from the Carenado/Alabeo line but have retired most of them. I still use the C90 King Air and AC690 but find Carenado’s flight models, systems and avionics aren’t always accurate or true to the real world.

    I am also a recreational pilot in the real world and own my own aircraft. I have a little real world IFR training. I am also fortunate to have many close friends in aviation that I can learn from. Airline pilots, warbird pilots and airshow pilots.

    That said, I am comfortable with ATC, VFR and IFR flight planning, aircraft systems and avionics. By no means an expert, but I do ok. If I get stuck, my 25,000 + hour 787 Captain friend is only a text or call away!

    So what I am looking for is something that has accurate and realistic avionics for IFR flying, could be full glass panel or partial. I like realism in the other systems as well but also appreciate having some flight crew assistance like the PMDG DC-6, A2A Connie, B377 and B-17 have. I can then delegate some of the systems management if I so choose.

    BendyFlyer, I’m looking forward to any further suggestions or insights you may have, as well as anyone else who’d like to weigh in on this.

    Cheers and thanks very much!
    I7-6700K @ 4.3, ASUS Z170-P, 32GB DDR4 2133, RTX 2070 8GB, Windows 10 Pro, P3Dv5.3 HF2

  5. #5
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Thunderchief - Good to hear that. Yes we all have a weird and wonderful collection from full blown study level to not so. Realistic navaid systems? hmmm I have to confess my interests have been in the classic jets as opposed to the modern all glass tubes. Captain Sim used to be the pick of the bunch in FSX but the 707 and 727 did not make it across the 64 bit divide into P3D so they are history for me!

    I do think the Coolsky DC-9 now sold as a package with the Super 80 and 80 professional by Flight 1 is about the best unless you go down the PMDG route. The issue with the DC9 family is that no help in the right hand seat you can get them to preconfigure to a point but you have to do all the work alas! But for complete systems fidelity, great VC and superb handling as per the real DC9s they win every time for me! The package is a bargain from Flight 1 given you get three types that basically covers the DC9 family apart from the 717.

    The older AH DC-8 collection is also pretty good (a couple of mods here and there to fix a few things up) and you can shift from old style systems to a more modern FMC system with them but the FMC is a bit of job to get to work properly because you need to install a TAMIL font for it to even display properly (I guess some of the programming was done in that part of the world - I don't know). I have the Aerosoft DC-8 but prefer the AH one actually, I find the guages in the Aerosoft DC-8 hard to read and the overall cockpit layout hard on my ageing eyes especially on a PC screen.

    I have the TDI 717 which is a full glass aeroplane very complex to get your head around because of the level of automation but again no AI to help out.

    I am now giving the Capt Sim 737-300 a go as I could not be bothered paying again for the 200 to get it into P3D the P3D package seems quite good and is a mix of EFIS and Old School to it is the pre NG generation tube, so far seems ok and probably worth a look at too. I have numerous discussions with others about it and so far so good even though a lot of people bag Captain Sim (and quite rightly in some aspects).

    Others may have a view about PMDG stuff (I only ever got the DC-6 from them) or FSL's Airbuses and the IFLY 737 NG 800 which is pure P3D model and one of the few new ones may be worth considering as well. Just Flight did the CLS DC10 a HD version but it needs extensive mods to be done to get it up to a realistic outcome (There is a long and detailed thread on AVSIM on it and how to do it) but with these mods it is very good too and genuine widebody of the era.

    I do miss the Captain Sim 727 which was a gem and very very good but not for P3D and the Ruth 727 which can do the job is not in the same class! Ok if you want a 727 fix but primitive in the pop up and systems area.

  6. #6
    If you like me miss the CS 707 classic and its immersive VC I do recommend the Aerosoft DC-8-50 as it has a great VC with engineer's panel and systems to play with. If I can't read a gauge (happening more and more!) I just use the keyboard to quickly zoom in closer.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  7. #7
    Looks like I have some homework! Thanks for all of the suggestions! Will report back when I’ve taken the plunge!
    I7-6700K @ 4.3, ASUS Z170-P, 32GB DDR4 2133, RTX 2070 8GB, Windows 10 Pro, P3Dv5.3 HF2

  8. #8
    BendyFlyer, I’d be interested in your thoughts on the CS 737 after you’ve had some seat time with it.
    I really enjoyed their 707 back in the day, but have read a lot of negativity regarding CS so I’m hesitant.
    I’ve been researching all the different models that were suggested here, so far leaning toward the TFDI 717.
    Unfortunately my flight sim budget this week was spent at Reality XP after the developers pulled their support for the Flight1 GNS and GTN GPS add-ons.
    The latest P3D update rendered them useless and no further updates are forthcoming.
    Also spent a few dollars at Milviz since they are also dropping P3D support, I wanted to pick up Beale AFB and the Skyraider before they disappear!
    Everything P3D/FSX is half price over there!
    I7-6700K @ 4.3, ASUS Z170-P, 32GB DDR4 2133, RTX 2070 8GB, Windows 10 Pro, P3Dv5.3 HF2

  9. #9
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Thunderstreak I now have the 737-300 seems fine to me, their ACE stuff and install was completely painless and I have not come across any major glitches so far. There are a heap of good paints for it easily installed by the Capt Sim automated installer. I did not bother with the 737 200 although I have it. Yes shame about the 707 and the 727 but until if ever Capt Sim does anything with all the 32 bit guages probably not going to happen. All said I have been spending most of my time on the Flight 1 or ex Coolsky DC9- which is a delight (and coming to grips with the arcane mysteries of the Super 80 and Pro 80 DC-9s - the AP and FMC systems which were faithfully recreated are lets say weird.

    Need to spend some time in the 737 but the arrival of the latest P3D Condor FW200 diverted me even further away from it for the time being. I don't think you will be disappointed I get good feedback from regular users/drivers of the 737-300 in the sim.

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