So....I guess Tacpack is dead?

[Navy Chief]

Is Tacpack a dead addon for anything past P3DV.5? Sure does appear so. NC

[dhazelgrove]

According to the website, P3Dv4.5 HF3 is the last version supported -- and that's supposedly a beta.

There's nothing anywhere (that I can find) to suggest that much is going on, but we have to consider that the global pandemic may have knocked things back.
I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Dave

[Mach3DS]

As far as I can tell VRS is basically non-existent on the entertainment side. Their ultra-long development times mean that they've missed opportunities as software improvements and features are made available in P3D. It's a shame. Even PBR...which would have been amazing to see. I hope that they eventually come to MSFS...but that sim is a mess, and their coding wouldn't be supported at this point. I fact, even PMDG has stated that it's going to be LONG time before any of their stuff will make it to MSFS...and that's just civil aviation stuff and standard systems, let alone military systems. I wish VRS all the best if they are still actively going behind the scenes...

[Scorch00]

In all honestly, as much as I loved VRS products. I think their time is slowly dwindling. Even if they move to MSFS, most people that want full fidelity military aircraft or hardcore combat simulation have moved to DCS for that. I'm one of them. P3D, MSFS2020, just will not come close to DCS in that regard. Even with TacPack. The value on the DCS platform is also better than what VRS are offering. $100+ (US) for a marginal fidelity Super Hornet + TacPack. On DCS you can pay $70 or less when it's on sale and get a dang near full fidelity Legacy Hornet. VRS had the market for a bit, but I think as people mentioned, their long development times for things has put them very behind tech and other platforms advancements. The F Super Bug model was teased for example as far back as 2010 I believe. And it's just now coming out for V4.5 I think of P3D at the end of this year. I parted ways with VRS' products early in 2019 for DCS. Haven't looked back. Only military stuff I fly in P3D now are transport stuff on rare instances. Not knocking VRS, I owned their stuff from FS2004 all the way until my late FSX days. Was always happy with what I had. I've just moved on.

[RobM]

According to their web site:


VRS Rhino for P3D now Preordering!
Coming December 2020 for P3D v4+

VRS F/A-18F Rhino is the culmination of many years of research, modeling, texturing and state of the art developmental techniques. This is a 2-seat variant of the Super Hornet with selectable rear-seat configurations for trainer and RIO stations. Rhino is destined to be our finest work yet and will feature meticulously crafted PBR materials throughout.
Rhino requires TacPack for P3D v4+. Please read system specs carefully before purchase.

So I guess we wait and see what happens in December. Pre-order purchase price is $54.99 US. Mind you, I'm not
certain how long that announcement has been there.

-RobM

[Mach3DS]

Yeah, I hear you Scorch00, I'm not knocking them either. I can tell you I've moved on from VRS as well. Supported them from about 2010 until 2018 FSX/P3D version of bug and TP. But with no new features and an empty world, became boring fast. Development times are far too long and DCS is Superior in every single facet imaginable for combat fast movers. Including Carrier ops and AAR. There's nothing that comes close. There's absolutely no way I would pay for a product at this stage that was not 100% PBR compliant as a visual standard baseline. If they do come to MSFS at some point, I will probably snatch up the F model.

[Scorch00]

According to their web site:


VRS Rhino for P3D now Preordering!
Coming December 2020 for P3D v4+

VRS F/A-18F Rhino is the culmination of many years of research, modeling, texturing and state of the art developmental techniques. This is a 2-seat variant of the Super Hornet with selectable rear-seat configurations for trainer and RIO stations. Rhino is destined to be our finest work yet and will feature meticulously crafted PBR materials throughout.
Rhino requires TacPack for P3D v4+. Please read system specs carefully before purchase.

So I guess we wait and see what happens in December. Pre-order purchase price is $54.99 US. Mind you, I'm not
certain how long that announcement has been there.

-RobM

I mean if you already have TacPack I feel that's a more than fair price for their level of work. But for people who have to buy the Bug and TacPack on top of it. You're really pushing it in my opinion for the value. A single aircraft and an additional utility. You're talking about over $100 at that point for the pair. (at least it was) I'm not sure what their pricing looks like now. But that was one of a few reasons I never bothered moving things over from FSX when I went to P3Dv4. Plus all the people I talked to had all said that their updates for P3D were painfully slow and you'd have to update ALL your VRS products, Terrain, Super Bug, and TacPack or they wouldn't work. You could literally update nearly all your other aircraft to a new version in V4 before VRS would release a fix. I think that's another reason why a lot of people have also gone without their products in P3D. I decided against even bothering with it as a result. People also complained of no customer loyalty discounts etc, I guess. I did end up buying DC Designs Super Hornet pack and it was pretty decent I felt for the price. Obviously nothing like VRS' work, but it wasn't supposed to be. Filled that need for the Rhino and Growler until my full blown use of the Hornet in DCS. This was after I paid $39.99 for the DCS F/A-18C though. Which, is as close to the real Hornet as you can possibly get without sitting in the jet. As far as the F model goes though. It was one of the oldest threads on their forum before I left and their recent redesign of the forum. Which was started around 2013 I think when the first posted screenshots appeared of the landing gear. 2015 they teased a full body shot of it. And from what I've heard the F model wont have PBR either. As much as it pains me to say, it's too little too late for me.

But without hijacking the thread off topic more with the Hornet talk. Could they be shifting focus to MSFS2020? Perhaps. But man it's almost painful to go back and look at stuff that's sat in their old forums for so long. Great bunch of guys on that team. But unfortunately. Unless they split between MSFS2020 and making an even higher fidelity Super Hornet for DCS. I don't see it or TacPack really being much of a relevant product anymore with DCS as the dominant platform in that genre of military aircraft simulation. Value and realism in DCS in terms of all the aircraft, weapons systems, radar, subsystems, etc. are unmatched. Going off tangent again, it's likely why a lot of military AFs are actually working with Eagle Dynamics to set up flight training/familiarization with DCS and not going to Lockheed Martin for P3D.

[Daube]

DCS is a very cool military combat simulation.
The planes in DCS are very complete, very realistic, fully functionnal.
We got it.

From my side, I don't care about DCS.
I want to be able to pilot high quality military planes in the "FS" (includes FSX, P3D and MSFS) environment, which means ANYWHERE in the world, with good scenery and good weather.
The DCS world is not matching my needs AT ALL.
I'm a little bit sick of people always mentioning DCS as a "suitable" alternative to FS . It's not. Not at all.

Concerning the strategic choices of VRS regarding their lineup, I don't know what to think about this.
From what I understood, they spent all these years in trying to create a two-seater version of the F/A-18, which would have a greater quality/realism than the single-seater ?
I would have preferred them to produced other planes, with same quality/realism level instead.
Maybe this would have helped to make the FS environment more "legit" for military stuff, in the head of potential addon makers ?...
IRIS made a nice try with their A-10, but sadly they stopped improving it...
Aerosoft also made a nice try with their Tomcat...
And... that's all :/

I wish we got more planes like that F/A-18... Waiting all these years, just for a two-seater F/A-18 ? I don't feel so happy about that...

[Scorch00]

DCS is a very cool military combat simulation.
The planes in DCS are very complete, very realistic, fully functionnal.
We got it.

From my side, I don't care about DCS.
I want to be able to pilot high quality military planes in the "FS" (includes FSX, P3D and MSFS) environment, which means ANYWHERE in the world, with good scenery and good weather.
The DCS world is not matching my needs AT ALL.
I'm a little bit sick of people always mentioning DCS as a "suitable" alternative to FS . It's not. Not at all.

Concerning the strategic choices of VRS regarding their lineup, I don't know what to think about this.
From what I understood, they spent all these years in trying to create a two-seater version of the F/A-18, which would have a greater quality/realism than the single-seater ?
I would have preferred them to produced other planes, with same quality/realism level instead.
Maybe this would have helped to make the FS environment more "legit" for military stuff, in the head of potential addon makers ?...
IRIS made a nice try with their A-10, but sadly they stopped improving it...
Aerosoft also made a nice try with their Tomcat...
And... that's all :/

I wish we got more planes like that F/A-18... Waiting all these years, just for a two-seater F/A-18 ? I don't feel so happy about that...

The allure of DCS is honestly the High Fidelity realism of the combat aircraft and the aircraft's combat abilities itself. Admittedly, the tradeoff in DCS is maps focused more on "theater" sized maps and it's weather engine is dated (for now). But that's again, because it's combat. I too am also sick of the comparisons. Mainly because of the incorrect generalization people have that the two sims are somehow the same genre. They are both completely different animals and have no business really being compared as "alternatives," to one another. Only similarity is that you fly aircraft in them. It's apples to oranges outside of that simplicity. No fighter aircraft in the FS world is as accurate as the combat aircraft in DCS, nor can the FS aircraft perform all of the combat aircraft's capabilities, aside from take off, navigate, and land. It's not possible in FS due to it's constraints (as of this time in 2020). It's also why most developers give up on improving military models more than they do in those sims. They make more money on the high fidelity civilian platforms (PMDG, etc), since that's what the FS platforms are built around to handle.

TacPack at one point attempted to do SOME of the combat stuff, but it's so far away in comparison it's not in the same ball park anymore since DCS has advanced so much. In terms of what my example being was. In this discussion, the only reason I brought TacPack up with DCS is because of it's attempt at trying to make FS a platform it wasn't built to be. If you want the highest fidelity combat models, that's found in DCS, it wont be in FS. And why DCS is the go to for that type of flying and not any of the FS civilian related sims. It's a different genre, different flying. And why things like TacPack will likely slowly fade away more than likely as DCS continues to advance. Military aircraft do have a place in FS, but it's not to simulate what they were built for with only marginal realism honestly, at best. Airshows, fun flights/formations, hops, and things like that are things I always enjoyed doing in FS9, FSX, and P3D. But other than that, that's really all the military aircraft are for in FS, is to look pretty and have fun in. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone wants to spend the time and study work it takes to operate the cockpit and subsystems on an F/A-18 or an F-16. Just like some people don't want to sit and know the intimate differences in programing FMCs in a 737 or an A320. I'm guilty of that in both respects. Sometimes I just want to jump in FS and fly quick. In DCS, that's not a thing really. But, DCS is for using the aircraft for how they were made. Like FS is for it's Commercial/GA aircraft. DCS is a Combat Flight Simulator. FS, X-Plane, P3D are General Aviation and Commercial/Transport Flight Simulators. They aren't the same thing, nor are they interchangeable alternatives of one another.

I'm with you though, it's disappointing it took this long for the Rhino to come out. I understand software development times, etc. But 5+ years is quite long development cycle. Like you though, my frustration in the lack of higher fidelity military aircraft was disappointing. But for a time, as I've said. I've moved on once I realized you can't make a sim what it isn't. There are military gems out there in FS though. Cera Sim's Blackhawk is a perfect example of that, literally dozens of others. Just saying. I'm one of the people that can appreciate both sims for what they are. And understand they are different and shouldn't be held to the same flame.

[Mach3DS]

This. For now DCS is maps. They are moving to a whole world environment. They also have said they were waiting for MSFS to release so they could see how they did their weather in order to do their wx engine update better. Having flown both and P3D with TacPack, and an online squadron, re enacting combat oops in this platform has been painful and less than satisfying. As was mentioned above. Apples and oranges. I think the development timelines are long because the team is so small and because It's not their actual jobs. And I believe that Jon has some family care stuff that takes up a lot of his time. That he gets anything produced is actually amazing and at the quality level is stupendous! A real achievement. I applaud them. Sorry to offend anyone with the DCS talk. I too like military jets in the FS world for non-combat stuff. So it's important to me also, that we see good quality stuff in the FS world as well.

[Priller]

DCS is a very cool military combat simulation.
The planes in DCS are very complete, very realistic, fully functionnal.
We got it.

From my side, I don't care about DCS.
I want to be able to pilot high quality military planes in the "FS" (includes FSX, P3D and MSFS) environment, which means ANYWHERE in the world, with good scenery and good weather.
The DCS world is not matching my needs AT ALL.
I'm a little bit sick of people always mentioning DCS as a "suitable" alternative to FS . It's not. Not at all.

Concerning the strategic choices of VRS regarding their lineup, I don't know what to think about this.
From what I understood, they spent all these years in trying to create a two-seater version of the F/A-18, which would have a greater quality/realism than the single-seater ?
I would have preferred them to produced other planes, with same quality/realism level instead.
Maybe this would have helped to make the FS environment more "legit" for military stuff, in the head of potential addon makers ?...
IRIS made a nice try with their A-10, but sadly they stopped improving it...
Aerosoft also made a nice try with their Tomcat...
And... that's all :/

I wish we got more planes like that F/A-18... Waiting all these years, just for a two-seater F/A-18 ? I don't feel so happy about that...

It's a new day, a new era even. i'm not saying that because it is November 3rd, but because of the advent of MSFS 2020.

it's still being developed, and soon(ish) new planes will come.

We only have to be patient, as the new kid in town is a different beast alltogether. But the (military and vintage) planes will come. it's just a matter of time.

Kind regards,

Priller

[Daube]

Yes Priller, you pretty much summarized my state of mind in your message above.
However, as long as some members will keep saying nonsense such as "if you want to fly military airplanes, just go to DCS", there are great chances that no serious addon makers will ever consider or find the motivation to make a serious military plane for the FS environment. That's what I fear. Because of these comments, we might not get anything but "CTRL-EZY" military addons, and that would be TERRIBLE.

[dhazelgrove]

Relax. Breathe.

SSW and SWS are still producing for P3D.
SSW also has vACMI where TacPack isn't available.

Dave

[awstub]

Relax. Breathe.

SSW and SWS are still producing for P3D.
SSW also has vACMI where TacPack isn't available.

Dave

There is also FSCAI (beta) ...which I think should work with P3Dv5....that allows FSX and P3D AI (and scenery objects) to become combat capable.
FSCAI also has the ability to allow non-tacpacked aircraft to fire/drop weapons....although, unlike Tacpack, the ordnance is invisible.

I've been testing FSCAI while also testing the RFN Crusader Tacpack beta and it's been quite interesting.
Sometimes I get on station only to find that other AI in the vicinity has already destroyed my intended target.....sometimes all my wingmen get shot down by ground fire....and sometimes I get shot down by it as well.
So far, the MiG's I have gone after have been destroyed by AI Phantoms in the area before I could get close enough to launch my Sidewinders.

Anyway, it's something that might tide some of you over until Tacpack for v5 comes out.

[Priller]

Yes Priller, you pretty much summarized my state of mind in your message above.
However, as long as some members will keep saying nonsense such as "if you want to fly military airplanes, just go to DCS", there are great chances that no serious addon makers will ever consider or find the motivation to make a serious military plane for the FS environment. That's what I fear. Because of these comments, we might not get anything but "CTRL-EZY" military addons, and that would be TERRIBLE.

Hahaha, just look at the difference in stock scenery, weather and the likes. MSFS is a VASTLY superior flightsim than anything else on the market. ORBX in MSFS? You don't need it. REX? you don't need it.

And I think that we should give devs some credit, cut them some slack. The SDK still isn't where it should be and the sim is still in full development. But graphics wise? Nothing can touch it.

And honestly? I just don't like DCS. Tried it, wasted money on it. Ditched it, not looking back.

I recently reinstalled P3Dv5.1 on my machine, but as MSFS evolves, the survival chances of P3D diminish.

Take care y'all!

Priller

[DC1973]

Yes Priller, you pretty much summarized my state of mind in your message above.
However, as long as some members will keep saying nonsense such as "if you want to fly military airplanes, just go to DCS", there are great chances that no serious addon makers will ever consider or find the motivation to make a serious military plane for the FS environment. That's what I fear. Because of these comments, we might not get anything but "CTRL-EZY" military addons, and that would be TERRIBLE.

You're right about the nonsense spouted by DCS fans who think that their way is the only way, and that anybody who buys military for MSFS is wasting their time - it's just the usual ignorance. But it's also nonsense to say that having only CTRL-EZY style military adds would be "terrible" - that's actually what the vast majority of users prefer; entertainment-level aircraft. At the risk of stating the obvious, it's called flight simulation and not combat simulation for a reason, same reason DCS World is what it is. Each to their own - the debate is just so much hot air.

As for weapons, there is just a tiny hint of a rumour that they're coming to MSFS in some form - can't really confirm anything as I honestly don't know, but it's not the first time I've heard of the possibility. I suspect that even if true, they won't be DCS or TacPack level though, true to form for the majority of the MSFS market which isn't into that kind of complexity for military aircraft.

[Daube]

But it's also nonsense to say that having only CTRL-EZY style military adds would be "terrible" - that's actually what the vast majority of users prefer; entertainment-level aircraft. At the risk of stating the obvious, it's called flight simulation and not combat simulation for a reason, same reason DCS World is what it is. Each to their own - the debate is just so much hot air.

You must be right.
Let's hope we get only CTRL-EZY planes, that's what we all deserve after all these years of simulation evolution.
Ooooh, I hope we can get some Abacus planes too, that would be neat.
Also, I want to die.

[pilto von pilto]

You must be right.
Let's hope we get only CTRL-EZY planes, that's what we all deserve after all these years of simulation evolution.
Ooooh, I hope we can get some Abacus planes too, that would be neat.
Also, I want to die.

Luckily for you the SDK's exist. 3dsmax costs 295 USD a year, access to the military-industrial complex is readily available ( ) and the community is full of people wanting exactly what you want ( and willing to pay ) which is why there is such a large target market for such addons. Go forth and make your addon.

For everyone else who just wants to have some fun in this otherwise pretty messed up time we find ourselves, then cheap, readily available, interesting collection of planes are being made by hard working and enthusiastic developers who despite comments like Daube's will continue to make things for this simulator.

[Priller]

You must be right.
Let's hope we get only CTRL-EZY planes, that's what we all deserve after all these years of simulation evolution.
Ooooh, I hope we can get some Abacus planes too, that would be neat.
Also, I want to die.

Don't exaggerate Daube! Come on!

Personally, I would love to have the "non-study" level military aircraft to come asap to MSFS. Not everybody is into study level. For me those are when I have time. I have a busy job and a life, so those moments are rare.

Thinking about the upcoming Pucara and Jaguar for MSFS, I'm feeling very excited! After all the frustration that FSX and P3D caused, that is something to look forward to.

And if Dean could throw in his Eagle and Thunderbolt, HELLO!!

Priller

[Daube]

Yes Priller, don't get me wrong: of course the simpler addons are legit in this sim, and totally welcome. There IS a market for these, even though I'm not part of it.
My comments / complains / depression were *only* about the perspective of having simple addons *only*
In the end, there's nothing I can do about this, excepted waiting to see if any serious military plane appears for MSFS.