Milviz Phantom F-4E (ADV) - hard to fly....
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Thread: Milviz Phantom F-4E (ADV) - hard to fly....

  1. #1

    Milviz Phantom F-4E (ADV) - hard to fly....

    Hi everybody,

    just noticed in my P3Dv4.5 that my F-4E (Advanced version...) shows a bad behaviour after take off. She is shying like a startled horse and I am not able to get her back into a smooth flight.
    Anybody else who noticed this behaviour?
    It's the first time that I want to fly her in P3Dv4.5 and I am a little shocked about this....

    The non-advanced version in 4.2 was a trusty workhorse, but not this one....
    Best regards, Manfred.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Manschy View Post
    Hi everybody,

    just noticed in my P3Dv4.5 that my F-4E (Advanced version...) shows a bad behaviour after take off. She is shying like a startled horse and I am not able to get her back into a smooth flight.
    Anybody else who noticed this behaviour?
    It's the first time that I want to fly her in P3Dv4.5 and I am a little shocked about this....

    The non-advanced version in 4.2 was a trusty workhorse, but not this one....
    This issue has been noted by many others, including myself. It's uninstalled on my system and considered lost money.
    It's known to Milviz, but I've given up any hope they'll correct it.

    Gary

  3. #3
    Milviz has taken, in my opinion, a lot of undeserved grief for the flying characteristics of their F-4 Adv. I have seen, for example, folks complaining about how they can't stay on speed in an approach when the fuel tanks are full. Additionally, stall speed is unrealistically high when the pilot is clearly not in the proper weight envelope.

    Other examples include, how the aircraft flips side to side in pre-stall condition. Finally, the example of how on take off, the front of the jet rears up and creates a stall. I have even heard the complain that the Milviz model does not have a parking brake.

    Frankly, all of these examples mentioned, and a few more reported, were real world characteristics of the jet. I will leave you with this quote and this link.

    "Naval aviators were rudely initiated into an F-4 idiosyncrasy: As airplane and deck parted company, the Phantom’s nose initially rose slowly. And with a bit of speed, the nose could over-rotate to a near-stall attitude if not controlled. “It got pretty wild,” says Chesire. “It was always lots of fun to watch new guys take off.”"

    https://www.airspacemag.com/military...-do-180953944/

  4. #4
    Trust me
    henrystreet , I've tried every combination, every user fix and every suggestion offered.
    This bird doesn't fly …...


  5. #5
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I haven't had any problems flying it by the NATOPS manual.

    I have seen many folks complain about the flight model, but did not properly set up their controls per Milviz instruction.

  6. #6
    Maybe I have to voice self-critism at this point....

    I have to say I am not able to fly the F-4 like a real jet pilot.
    Yes, of course, in most case due to my spare free time I do start aircraft with control+E and want to enjoy "flying" jets but as a hobby.
    That's not MILVIZ' mistake...
    If "Advanced" means to study manuals for weeks, learning flying skills for months and getting flying routine for years, I completely did a wrong purchase.
    But that's not MILVIZ' mistake.
    If their product is that real that normal flightsim pilots are not able to fly it, it's not MILVIZ' mistake.

    But in this case, MILVIZ' is under the duty to warn users like me of buying this addon or has to advert users to the high demand of using this F-4 at least....

    In my opinion, that's MILVIZ' mistake.

    Why is it not possible using the fantastic aircraft furthermore like under P3Dv4 - v4.2? If you are reading this, please take stock of yourself and enable this beloved aircraft again to all of us who purchased it.

    We also can appreciate your great work and spirit in this jet even if we are no real pilots!
    You don't will lose any respect if you make this aircraft (again...) more easy to fly....but you will probably win more customers and fans (back)....
    Best regards, Manfred.

  7. #7
    I have all Milviz Phantoms including ADV package. I flew them a lot in the past and their behavior changed quite a bit recently, no idea why. The evelator sensitivity became somehow much higher indeed.
    This is in P3Dv4.3 by the way.

    Anyways, after takeoff the Phantom E (just like the J) does indeed want to raise the nose dramatically, like dreaming of being a Su-27 performing a cobra
    From what I understood, the Phantom needs a lot of nose-down trim for takeoff. if trim is neutral, when flying half flaps (even worse on full flaps), the tail is too heavy and any pull on the stick results in an exaggerated raising of the nose. However, once the trim is adjusted to give some nose-down, then the plane starts to behave nicely again.
    Then, when retracting gears and flaps, some serious nose-up trim needs to be added again.
    Finally, on approach, some nose-down trim should be added again prior to deploying the flaps again.

    These Phantoms may actually be the first planes to force me to be careful about the numbers and the weight of the aircraft.
    The following constraints did apply:
    - you shouldn't deploy the flaps at too high speed. During the approach, you'll have to bleed your speed enough to get below 250 knots. This will be quite difficult with an heavy aircraft, because it will stall quite fast. Much easier with a light (low fuel) aircraft in fact.
    - Once reached say 240 knots, you can deploy half flaps or so, but before that, add some nose down trim. It will be easier later.
    - prepare for some more trim adjusting when deploying the gears
    - After takeoff, after raising gears and flaps, the aircraft controls should be more "easy" (or normal?) around 300 knots.

  8. #8
    Also all three dampers ( yaw-roll-pitch ) must be ON - ( at least I've the Milviz F4J and for sure also the F4E has them )

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails F4J.jpg  
    The more you do, the less you dream

  9. #9
    I manage to take off using the AFCS and fly well enough, but as soon as I set up the plane for landing by lowering the landing gear, the flaps extended and the nose points downwards in an unrecoverable dive.

  10. #10
    The Phantom has such a pitch change when deploying flaps, Particularly the J, that I have a mnemonic for what to expect when ever I am going to change the gear or flaps state. Flaps down nose down, flaps up nose up.

    I have found it helps to lead the trim as soon as you are reaching for the flap control. The J is one of those aircraft that I have to "get current" in if I am going to fly it again.

    As was mentioned earlier, things from the manual have to be done. Not many, but it is basic to flying. Take the max landing weight seriously, dump fuel if you have to.
    Trim nose down 2 to 3 units before takeoff from a ground runway.That sets you up for being in trim with flaps up and 300 knots
    Understanding that you are going to be a little nose heavy at rotation and then transition to a pitch up tendency as you accelerate past 300 knot is key to not being behind the airplane.

    If you still feel like you are struggling when established in the climb. tap the Autopilot. that will get you trimmed up for the speed you are at. (don't try this with gear and flaps down though!)

    There is a trim chart for carrier takeoffs, it is not complex but it is important to use it. The trim for that is different than a field takeoff.

    250 knots is the the max flap speed, if you are faster the flaps are going to blow up and you get the big pitch change again.
    Fly on speed on the downwind and beyond it is the way it is really done and you won't have any flap issues

    Rolling out on downwind I have a count that I do for nose up trim, usually a count of 8 if I remember correctly, that gets me in the ballpark. I don't wait till the flaps complete their transition.

    All of this is critical for the blown flaps J, the E and S then seem like docile sweet hearts if you master the J.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fulvio_61 View Post
    I manage to take off using the AFCS and fly well enough, but as soon as I set up the plane for landing by lowering the landing gear, the flaps extended and the nose points downwards in an unrecoverable dive.
    It could be that you are still too heavy and fast to deploy your flaps.
    The Phantom also dramatically nosed down on my side when I deployed flaps on my first try. But after I reduced the fuel levels and payload, the nose down was much more manageable.

  12. #12
    I appreciate all your explanations here and this give me a lot of confidence to maybe get used to riding her (sometime...) yet still.
    Your suggestions regarding trim sounds more than argumentative. So how is her behaviour when I do trim her like Daube's and Menef's advices while doing turns? Will I be permanently be busy with trimming or do I trim her once at Take Off and finally again while approaching?
    Best regards, Manfred.

  13. #13
    If you change speed you will need to trim, if your weight changes, such as after ordinance release, you will have to re-trim
    As I mentioned, a fast way to get back in trim is to tap the autopilot on for a moment.
    I would not recommend ever engaging the autopilot when in the landing config though.
    Phantom pilots were known to have the thumbs of their gloves worn because they were constantly trimming.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by joe bob View Post
    Phantom pilots were known to have the thumbs of their gloves worn because they were constantly trimming.
    I had heard something similar as well.

    The plane, after all, was a "brick" with very powerful engines.

  15. #15
    Jesus - how will I be able to just do this with only a mouse?
    How do you get managed this? Do you have a configuration on your joystick? This might be better to handle this "brick".... innit?
    Best regards, Manfred.

  16. #16
    As a phormer Phantom Phixer this is correct

    I have even heard the complain that the Milviz model does not have a parking brake.
    The F-4 did not have a dedicated parking brake, you would set the emergency brake lever, then hold it in position by looping one of seat belts around it.

    Ttfn

    Pete

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Manschy View Post
    Jesus - how will I be able to just do this with only a mouse?
    How do you get managed this? Do you have a configuration on your joystick? This might be better to handle this "brick".... innit?
    I have a very old Microsoft Sidewinder FFB2 joystick, and there are a few buttons on it. I have simply assigned one button to trim up and another one to trim down.

  18. #18
    On Milviz's webpage for the J Adv it states (and then has a link to setup instructions):

    Important:
    All MilViz products require a functioning gaming controller such as a joystick for proper operation.

    For maximum functionality and pilot joy, Milviz recommends Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog & Flight Rudders.


  19. #19
    The Num pad 1 and 7 are trim on mine (I can't remember if I assigned it or if it is default)
    I find the num pad moves the trim slower so I generally use joy stick buttons for most trimming but when I need to make small adjustments I use the Num pad.
    I would thing that would work fine if your joystick does not have spare buttons.

  20. #20
    Okay, hope to all who are despairing of this bird:

    IT IS FLYABLE - and stable in any way.....if you take one to two hours time to really understand how it is working. Control+E is not the solution, I have to respect this.

    If you abide by the manual, watching carefully the startup and flying tutorial, this bird is fun - even if you are such an inexperienced user like me!
    I now use 2 buttons on my joystick for the elevator trimming and I do control this aircraft (almost...) the complete flight.

    I needed three trials to get her in a (halfway) nice pattern, first time my left engine did catch fire suddenly, second time I got no oil pressure and some generator failed, but last but not least she did as I want....

    IT IS SUCH IMPORTANT TO DO EACH PROCEDURE STEP BY STEP. Doing this, it will work. Doing it superficial, it will fail....
    Am I enthusiastic? Yes, indeed. Because several days ago I was frustrated and had no hope to bond with her.
    But two things solved my problem:

    1. Trimming, trimming, trimming....(no problem using the joystick buttons...)
    2. And finally this tutorial which made my day:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CC6VMv14oo

    So I have to apologize for my impatience.
    Best regards, Manfred.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Manschy View Post
    Okay, hope to all who are despairing of this bird: IT IS FLYABLE -
    Super glad you stuck with it!! Lots of great advice in this thread too.

    The real world bird was not for the faint of heart either :-)

  22. #22
    I have a local EAA member who flew the F-4C in Vietnam, and shot down a MiG-21. Listening to his stories about flying the Phantom match the info posted here by the people who have learned to fly her. He was present for the maiden flight of the F-4 in my avatar picture, which is done in the scheme of the aircraft he flew. By the way, that R/C aircraft is just as trim sensitive as the real one! I have not yet learned to fly the MilVis ADV F-4 yet, either, but that is due to R/L time constraints. I will learn it, eventually.
    Don H

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  23. #23
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    All fine and dandy but when the aircraft CTDs the sim every single time mere minutes into a session before engine start is even complete, notwithstanding all the MVAMS settings were gone over, a point that at least in my case MV never addressed, then platitudes around "it was hard to fly in real life" are pretty empty.

  24. #24
    DL, can understand those annoying things a lot!
    Same to me with the JF Tornado, just when I install any upgrades regarding any shaders, the Tonka will show up almost completely transparent and I have to shut down the P3D, delete any shaders, restart etc etc.
    Not good solution and an issue that has to be more discussed over there in the forums....
    My opinion:
    The deeper the system of a high technique aircraft addon, the higher the chance to get issues. That's caused by a highly needed sensible balance between each users system and the addon.
    Is there any chance to get a solution for your strong problem over there at MV forums?
    Best regards, Manfred.

  25. #25
    I have followed each thread about the MV ADV Phantom and occasionally tried to assist people, especially with trim settings. I had the pleasure of testing this beast and at first I was also frustrated but managed to get the hang of it eventually.

    In my opinion, study level sims like this one may not be for everyone but managing to make them work, both in terms of systems use and flying brings a huge satisfaction in the end. I get the same from DCS birds that are of similar of larger level of complexity. Of course there are the times where one just needs to fly around and enjoy the scenery. There are many great planes to do that. Personally I am glad for this variety as I do have varying needs from simming that depend on my mood at the time and I can chose from the wide selection of options, knowing what each of them offer.

    Manfred, I am glad that you are getting the hang of the Phantom. A good joystick (even better a HOTAS) is really important to have.

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