large formations in campaign spawns

[rince33]

Ive never really been a fan of Cfs3 campaigns in the past because of the small and very loose formations, but after browsing through 33lima's Bob campaign report I decided as an experiment, to increase formation size and tightness in the bob era spawns.

I started a Bob campaign and this is a screenshot of the first mission, an intercept off the Isle of Wight with rather large and reasonably tight formations of stukas.

I'm just wondering if anybody has tried this before and what effect it had on the campaign or other.

[Daiwilletti]

Ive never really been a fan of Cfs3 campaigns in the past because of the small and very loose formations, but after browsing through 33lima's Bob campaign report I decided as an experiment, to increase formation size and tightness in the bob era spawns.

I started a Bob campaign and this is a screenshot of the first mission, an intercept off the Isle of Wight with rather large and reasonably tight formations of stukas.

I'm just wondering if anybody has tried this before and what effect it had on the campaign or other.

Hi Rince33, that sounds very interesting! From what I gather, you have increased the number of aircraft in some of the campaign spawns (eg. the intercept_spawns). And you have decreased the offset of the formations. When you ask if it will have any effect on the campaign, all I can think of is that your damage percent goal should be reduced. Eg. if success was measured by 20 % damage to a small formation, it could be achieved by 5% damage to a larger formation.

Another thing you can try is to have different formations called in the spawns file for the one spawning event. So in the same spawning event in a spawn file, you can call two or more formations. For example, call a Bomber formation separated by a comma from an escort formation. There are examples in some of the ETO spawn tables. There should be no white spaces just the name of the spawn formation and a comma before the next formation.

EG within one line of a .spawns file: <Spawn ID="1" FormationType="air_eub,air_euf"/>. Give some thought to what directive to be given to the fighters, and also whether to set an altitude for both formations.

[MajorMagee]

House Hobbit did some large formation development (Group size combat boxes) not long before he got taken out of the game...

[rince33]

Thanks for the info Daiwilletti

From what I gather, you have increased the number of aircraft in some of the campaign spawns (eg. the intercept_spawns). And you have decreased the offset of the formations

Thats pretty much what I've done. I have the Bob campaign for eto installed and I've reworked all of the spawns associated with that campaign.

So in the same spawning event in a spawn file, you can call two or more formations. For example, call a Bomber formation separated by a comma from an escort formation.

I've noticed this in some of the spawn files I've reworked, I'm sure that there were two stuka formations in the that first mission.

Give some thought to what directive to be given to the fighters, and also whether to set an altitude for both formations.

Maybe have set altitudes for different directives so that you know where to find the enemy instead of being at the wrong altitude and having to use visual aids. An ideal situation would be to have altitude indicated in the briefing though I suppose that would have to be coded.

Ill do some research into spawn creation just to see what is possible.



This is probably a silly question but there any way to set the campaign to fly as a wingman ?

[rince33]

House Hobbit did some large formation development (Group size combat boxes) not long before he got taken out of the game...

I've played some of those missions and really enjoyed them.

Ive created some of my own missions and had to manually edit them to get large single tight formations.

[33lima]

Rince33, I feel like the Monty Python King Arthur on his quest for the Holy Grail and you're the Frenchman taunting me from the ramparts that you've already got one!

Seriously, this is a big thing for any CFS3 BoB campaign (if not any campaign, period) and assuming it plays out reasonably well, should be a must have. Even tighter formations all round - fighters as well as bombers, and definitely RAF fighters up to about 1941 - would be a lot better than what we have now, everything in very wide finger fours. Would be delighted to try it out. Bigger formations, too...yummy, drool &c &c.

I remember tinkering with formation spacing years back but I think that was in individual mission files for the Memphis Belle add-on, and finding that B17s tended to fall out of the tighter formation more easily and dramatically, if I went beyond a certain point. Since when I've forgotten what little I knew about CFS3's innards. Never occurred to me to look in the spawn files, though I was reading up on them after realising I wasn't using the right ones for MrJMaint's BoB campaign, ETO version. But now am I think.

These would be great!

PS I for one dislike flying as a wingman. Formation flying is a chore, and I prefer the extra tactical dimension from playing as a leader, even though I'm now having to re-learn CFS3's approach to it.

[rince33]

Flying as a wingman enables me to view my flight's aircraft skins and models up close, something that you can't really do as flight leader. As leader it feels like you are flying solo with spawns set up as they were, with formations a bit too loose. At some stage do I get bored with formation flying and warp closer to the action, but you are right, flying as a wing leader gives you that tactical dimension that is vital when attacking large formations of bombers as they are now set up with the spawn rework .
I must say was not very successful on that first mission.

I'll do some further testing and tweaking and will release the spawns as a submod for the Bob ETO campaign mod.

[33lima]

Sounds great!

PS I'm assuming/hoping this is the campaign whose spawns we're dealing with here: http://www.mrjmaint.com/cfs3/BoBCampaigns.html

Anyway, looking forward to getting stuck in!

[Daiwilletti]

Sounds great!

PS I'm assuming/hoping this is the campaign whose spawns we're dealing with here: http://www.mrjmaint.com/cfs3/BoBCampaigns.html

Anyway, looking forward to getting stuck in!

Hi 33lima, just a reminder that mrjmaint did campaign and spawn sets for the stand-alone BoB install by Pat Pattle, as well as the ETO Era 2 Bob. Its easy to mix them up when downloading. Also he did a V2 for both installs, making corrections and improvements. Don't use the Version 1.

Great screenshot as always!

[rince33]

There are two versions of the campaign, stock/pattles Bob alpha and an eto version. Look for the ETO version under mrjmaints eto campaigns. Its been a while since I installed it. Ive always kept a backup for my eto setup so that I wouldn't have to go through that whole tedious installation process again, so I suggest that you do the same just in case.

If I remember correctly the campaign replaces the current Bob campaign. It's mrjmaint's spawns that I reworked, well, whatever spawns came with the install.


I have the Bob Alpha /stock install as well, It has some nice aircraft models, though I have a ctd problem on campaign mission start. I tried to re-install the bob alpha setup from the sticky threads post, but the update link is broken.

I used the aircraft from the alpha install in my eto campaign. I obviously copied the aircraft, pylons and weapons to my eto setup and replaced eto aircraft with bob alpha's in the campaign xml's, surprised it all works.


EDIT: OOPS, Daiwilletti replied before I could. I probably have campaign version one installed, thats why my alpha version campaign is ctd. I'll download version 2. I assume mrjmaint has updated his links to v2.

[33lima]

I had downloaded both versions but have only ever installed the ETO version - now I know what the other version is for!

I have an unused CFS3 3.1a install (intended for Firepower and my Just Flight add-ons, at some point) and might use it for Pat's BoB campaign and MjJMaint's version.

I used the ETO's included backup utility in 2014(!) and should probably do another un, but looks like it saves only selected key files. So the full re-installation ritual would likely need performed if something went seriously amiss. Would zipping the whole CFS3 ETO folder to an archive, copying to DVD or external HDD, and restoring from that work, assuming the registry entry and appdata files will still ok if I restore to the same location?

[rince33]

A while back I set up a second harddrive as a backup. I installed the main game, copied the eto install folder and the AppData files across and it worked perfectly, so back up your install folder to an external harddrive or dvd. Its always a good idea to back up your appdata files as well as they contain your saved profile with your controls setup.
As long as you have the stock game registered on your system your eto install folder will work. Eto installation does not affect the registry as far as I know.

[mongoose]

I have multiple installs' copies on 3 Hard drives plus the latest work on a back up hard drive!

[rince33]

I have just re-installed a stock/ Pattles bob setup that I downloaded from the bob alpha sticky thread. It contains the campaign as well. I think the "update to the main passage link" was removed because the content was causing ctd at campaign mission start. On the Wix site it says that the update download is coming soon. The campaign seems to be working ok now.

[Snaker]

Here are some large formation screenshots from a while back using House Hobbit's missions. If you do not want set up the campaign these are easily installed and ready to go!

[33lima]

Flying as a wingman enables me to view my flight's aircraft skins and models up close, something that you can't really do as flight leader. As leader it feels like you are flying solo with spawns set up as they were, with formations a bit too loose. At some stage do I get bored with formation flying and warp closer to the action, but you are right, flying as a wing leader gives you that tactical dimension that is vital when attacking large formations of bombers as they are now set up with the spawn rework .
I must say was not very successful on that first mission.

I'll do some further testing and tweaking and will release the spawns as a submod for the Bob ETO campaign mod.

Any joy with this? Looking forward to giving it a try in my BoB campaign!

[rince33]

I haven't spent much time testing these, maybe you can do the me honour. This is the second version that I reworked just this morning. I tried the first mission twice this evening and got my a--e handed to me on both occasions. In this version I put a bit more thought into individual spawn numbers, they are reduced somewhat. I've multiplied most of the larger spawns by three otherwise it can get a bit messy. In one of the missions I faced 16 stukas and 12 bf110s with 8 hurricanes in the bad light of early morning. I look forward to your feedback and I hope that they work. http://www.mediafire.com/file/gre91m..._%252B.7z/file I want to further experiment with altitude values so that you don't warp to 17000 feet and then have to drop to 5000 feet to confront the enemy. ###These were reworked for Pattles Bob alpha install.### I copied over the eto asset folder and eto bob gsl and global layer files because I prefer the Eto terrain.

[33lima]

Many thanks, downloading now though it will be tomorrow before I get a chance to try it. Fixing it so you don't add thousands of feet needlessly in warp before running into a larger formation would be icing on a rather large and tasty ('piece of') cake!

[rince33]

You posted while I was editing the last post because I forgot to mention that the spawns were for pattles stock version. Hope you see this in time.

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Rince33, did you edit the spawn table files? eg. Intercept.spans, sweep.spawns and cap.spawns. That is the only way to tell if all necessary .xml files are edited. Also it is where you can add a top cover fighter escort linked to the bomber formations so that the campaign missions intercepting bombers are not just a turkey shoot!

I like the way you have added an altitude for the tactical bombers, 33lima keeps encountering solo bomber formations at suicidal altitude - you'd think the Luftwaffe would learn!

[rince33]

Hi Daiwilletti, I read through the spawn table files but did not feel the need to edit them right now. Almost all of the air spawns have been tweaked for higher aircraft numbers. This is a wip, and for now I just wanted to check the effects of larger spawn numbers in the campaign . Those altitude settings in the tactical bomber spawn files already existed and I want to use them as an example to experiment further.

[rince33]

This morning I thought about reworking spawns for the Eto bob campaign. Most of the bobalpha spawn files will work except for a file that contains aircraft info dedicated only to that install. I don't have a clean Eto install so I cant properly test the rework. If you want to give it a try you need to first backup your existing Eto campaign and spawn folders, install the Bob Eto campaign, "copy and replace" my reworked alpha spawn files to the Eto spawn folder as well as these reworked eto spawn files : https://www.mediafire.com/file/jim06...spawns.7z/file You may have to remove the following spawn file "(MJ).air.British.Hurri.reco.4.xml" because it contains a reference to a Bobalpha stock version aircraft. With a bit of luck this all may work. I hope that all made sense.

[33lima]

Many thanks, hadn't installed yet or realised they weren't for the ETO version. Will try out the latest version ASAP - really looking forward to this - even if, flying for The Few, it makes the Battle feel more like...well, the Battle

[rince33]

I don't really know if that Eto setup will work. I know for a fact that the Bob alpha setup works, though I haven't had much the time to play it .

[rince33]

I flew a campaign intercecpt mission against stukas flying at 15000 feet. I found ten tactical bomber spawns without altitude settings, so I'm sure these are the culprits. Assuming that the altitude is set in feet, I set those tactical bomber altitudes at 5000 feet. I can set them higher if this is thought to be too low. Updated Bob alpha campaign spawns: http://www.mediafire.com/file/16dcby...s%252B.7z/file