Lest We Forget...

[Typhoon Willy]

Although there were no air battles fought, so a bit off topic here, July 1 through July 3 marks the 156th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg (Pennsylvania).

Respectfully,

TW

[MaskRider]

Thanks for the remonder TW,

My old man and I and later he and I and my daughter visited the battlefield many times. Getting out of the car at the copse of trees and walking over to the "angle" one can, at least I can, feel the weight of the place. Its a heavy spot. Likewise when standing over on Seminary Ridge next to the North Carolina Monument and looking across at the copse of trees on Cemetery Ridge.

It always reminds me of William Faulkner lines from Intruders in the Dust:

For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out...... and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time

I was born and raised in Northern Virginia and proud of it. Even attended JEB Stuart High School- renamed with some politically-correct moniker two years ago. My old man was from Massachusetts. My mom was from Lagrange, Georgia, a little town near the Alabama border west of Atlanta. The Civil War was an oft discussed topic in our home. I was brought up to have empathy and respect for both sides. Maybe with a slight tilt to the South. ;^)

Yes, respectfully.
MR

[bearcat241]

...Maybe with a slight tilt to the South. ;^)

And respectfully i say, take a guess at my tilt on this. ;^)

Blood for my nation , blood for my freedom...

DJ

[Fibber]

that the temps were reported to be over 100 degrees! I had a dearly departed aunt who was a born and raised in the south backwoods who to the day she passed called it "....the war of Northern Aggression.!"
She was also a WW2 army nurse in the ETO.

[Typhoon Willy]

My 5th grade teacher, a grandmotherly woman and Southern Belle from Atlanta, spoke of Gen. Wm. Tecumseh Sherman with contempt, in a subtle kind of way. Two things I remember from her class, 1st, she made sure we knew all the states, their capitals, and locations on the map, 2nd, we all had to memorize AND recite Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

My first time visiting Gettysburg, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. Like MaskRider said, you can feel the weight of the place.

Kind regards,

TW

[Eoraptor1]

My 5th grade teacher, a grandmotherly woman and Southern Belle from Atlanta, spoke of Gen. Wm. Tecumseh Sherman with contempt, in a subtle kind of way. Two things I remember from her class, 1st, she made sure we knew all the states, their capitals, and locations on the map, 2nd, we all had to memorize AND recite Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

My first time visiting Gettysburg, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. Like MaskRider said, you can feel the weight of the place.

Kind regards,

TW

My mother's side of the family is from South Carolina. If you know the Columbia/Cayce area, that's where we're from. The site of the plantation where my ancestors were owned (that would be my African ancestors; my white ancestors were elsewhere, and considered quite respectable) is now an old person's home.

I personally think every American should be familiar with both the Confederate Constitution and the Declarations of Immediate Causes for Secession. These documents contain the stated reasons of the Confederate leadership for secession from the Union, and in my dream world, they would also know the specific "outrages" John C. Calhoun claimed were being made against the South under Andrew Jackson. I know this is something of a stretch, as many people are blissfully unaware of what's in the United States Constitution. I myself have to be regularly checked as to what I think it says, and what it says in fact. Incidentally (or maybe not) the Mother Emanuel AME Church is on Calhoun St. in Charleston, but you have to know something of the AME church's history and who Denmark Vesey was to grasp how supremely ironic that pairing is, but then in my considered opinion, there are wide swathes of US History much of our populace would rather not consider. Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living," and we see what happened to him...

Best I stop typing now.

JAMES

PS I too had to learn the Gettysburg Address by heart.

[Marty]

My great Great Grandfather BW Willis was with G company 35th Georgia Infantry. He was a sharpshooter. on this date in 1863 he was captured at the Bliss Farm during some intense fighting. The Yanks sent him to Fort Delaware. Two weeks later He returned to his unit to take up arms again. He was so involved in the cause he was laid to rest in 1929 in Arkansas. in the end he wanted all to know he was a Confederate. I am so very proud of his history and accomplishments.

[Typhoon Willy]

It's interesting that after so long, many members here have a connection, either directly or indirectly, to this conflict. Regardless of which side of the Mason-Dixon Line you're from, I hope we may continue to keep this thread...civil.

TW

[johannesl]

Been to Little Round Top, still wooded today, and feel what it might have been like on a hot July day. Sadly, I understand the copes of trees has gone the way of time and tide and fell down a couple of years ago.

[bearcat241]

...Incidentally (or maybe not) the Mother Emanuel AME Church is on Calhoun St. in Charleston, but you have to know something of the AME church's history and who Denmark Vesey was to grasp how supremely ironic that pairing is...

Truly remarkable observation my friend...

On a wider note, the business of the 'nullification crisis' and its impact on the South as a major contributing factor in the argument of states rights in the prelude to war is an intriguing study. Funny how most - if not all - conversations on the pre-war period always focus entirely on the emotions of abolitionism vs. the Southern "way of life", as it's still affectionately referred to, and/or the sensationalism of slave insurrections. Rarely do we ever dive deeply into the sordid economic tug of war between the agrarian South and the manufacturing states of the North and how much strife that actually stirred up.

I cannot speak for Jackson nor the legislators of those days, but i'm quite certain that in the halls of government in that period, these two things were seen as having a mutual relationship. It stands to reason that they should get equal consideration, which is lacking, in our historical reviews.

[sixstrings5859]

I live in the deep, deep South. Here we don't talk much about The War Between The States but i found a keen interest in it. So many grave sites where i live you can't help but take notice. It wasn't talked about in school which is a shame. So many lives lost on both sides it saddens me. The slaves were freed but the states lost there rights also. Slavery is wrong, both North and South, and i'm glad it is over. Schools need to teach our youth about the whole truth of the war so it will not be repeated.

Regards, Scott

[MaskRider]

you have to know something of the AME church's history and who Denmark Vesey was to grasp how supremely ironic that pairing is...

Yes, well I know who Calhoun and Denmark Vesey were and am aware of the past and recent tragic history of the Mother Emanuel AME Church. And I think I have a tenuous albeit unwoke grasp on the irony of the pairing. An yet, sadly enough, being the unregenerate old sot that I am, I still love my southern ancestors, my family, who fought for the South. It is about love of family. Not love of a "way of life". Not the slightest bit ashamed of any of them.

But not to worry. I am 67 years old- soon to be cleansed from the national consciousness along with all the Confederate markers, memorials and place names. :^)

MR

[bearcat241]

... It is about love of family. Not love of a "way of life"...

Finally, a forthright opinion on that point. As a native southerner myself, i've always suspected that as the true case whenever handed that "way of life" penny. All rich slave owners aside with their inherent self-interest, IMHO i think the love of family was and still is perhaps the most noble motive of the confederate perspective for the grass roots element who were not slave owners but mustered out for the cause.

Unfortunately, as you noted before and in common knowledge, this conflict tragically divided many families as well...

[Rami]

Truly remarkable observation my friend...

On a wider note, the business of the 'nullification crisis' and its impact on the South as a major contributing factor in the argument of states rights in the prelude to war is an intriguing study. Funny how most - if not all - conversations on the pre-war period always focus entirely on the emotions of abolitionism vs. the Southern "way of life", as it's still affectionately referred to, and/or the sensationalism of slave insurrections. Rarely do we ever dive deeply into the sordid economic tug of war between the agrarian South and the manufacturing states of the North and how much strife that actually stirred up.

I cannot speak for Jackson nor the legislators of those days, but i'm quite certain that in the halls of government in that period, these two things were seen as having a mutual relationship. It stands to reason that they should get equal consideration, which is lacking, in our historical reviews.

Bearcat241 and others,

It was absolutely a mutually beneficial economic relationship, but we find it more politically and socially expedient to not highlight that. Here in Revolutionary Yankee territory, I would be called into serious ethical question if I delved into that. Teaching history in a PC world is like walking on hot coals while carrying an egg on a spoon in each hand, and hoping you can make it to the other side.

Keep up this discussion, you all are doing a wonderful job keeping it civil. Carry on!

[MaskRider]

Unfortunately, as you noted before and in common knowledge, this conflict tragically divided many families as well...

Heh heh, well, it didn't divide my Mom's family. For better or worse, they put their knapsacks on their backs, their rifles on their shoulders and marched off.

The old man was always a great fan of Robert E. Lee so the only tension perhaps arose when my mom had to point out to him that not everything southern was wonderful- just because she was. If anything she was much more apt to see the flaws of southern way life than he was.

Interestingly enough, my Dad's stodgy old New England side of the family, none of whose ancestors served during Civil War because they paid bounties to get out conscription, never really forgave him for marrying a Southern girl.

The folks met while both served in the Navy during and after WWII. She was a young Ltjg cryptologist and he a young mine-sweep skipper just back from the Pacific. They met while both were TAD in Charleston. :^).

Cheers, BC
MR

PS To Rami: Stodgy applies only to my dads New England roots- nothing to do with you!

PPS: @Scott. Speaking of graves

I live in the deep, deep South. Here we don't talk much about The War Between The States but i found a keen interest in it. So many grave sites where i live you can't help but take notice....
Regards, Scott

By way of FYI, my great grandmothers house/property in Lagrange, GA where my mother spent a lot of time when growing up, backed on to the North-South railway tracks (between Chattanooga, Chickaumaga and points south) and was used as a hospital by both sides during the war. There were still a couple of unknown supposedly Union graves in the backyard, between the railroad tracks and what had been the detached kitchen, when I used to visit as a kid. Don't know if they are still there. The house was sold and torn down a dozen years or so ago.

[Eoraptor1]

Yes, well I know who Calhoun and Denmark Vesey were and am aware of the past and recent tragic history of the Mother Emanuel AME Church. And I think I have a tenuous albeit unwoke grasp on the irony of the pairing. An yet, sadly enough, being the unregenerate old sot that I am, I still love my southern ancestors, my family, who fought for the South. It is about love of family. Not love of a "way of life". Not the slightest bit ashamed of any of them.

But not to worry. I am 67 years old- soon to be cleansed from the national consciousness along with all the Confederate markers, memorials and place names. :^)

MR

You will end. I will end. "Like tears in rain..." It will not end, unless we end it. Have you ever read Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian (or the Evening Redness in the West)? He says it much better than I've been able to...for now, and I thought I made it very clear, my ancestors are Southern.

JAMES

[MaskRider]

You will end. I will end. "Like tears in rain..." It will not end, unless we end it. Have you ever read Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian (or the Evening Redness in the West)? He says it much better than I've been able to...for now, and I thought I made it very clear, my ancestors are Southern.

JAMES

Understood James. I let myself get a bit up on my high horse.

Thanks for the reading recommendations.

Chris

[bearcat241]

...Keep up this discussion, you all are doing a wonderful job keeping it civil. Carry on!

And rightly so Rami. More than enough anger and blood was spilled on both sides for us to still be prosecuting this matter. And at the end of it, we're all still just one, solid nation under God as we accurately proclaim.

Ok, now that we ALL are declared "free", let's go chow down on that 4th of July barbecue ~ LOL


P.S. But K.I.M. true liberty and justice for all is still a work in progress...stay tuned

[Eoraptor1]

Understood James. I let myself get a bit up on my high horse.

Thanks for the reading recommendations.

Chris

Nothing but love, Maskrider. I'm about the love. Cormac McCarthy is, IMO, one of our greatest American writers. I remember my friends telling me how depressed I'd be reading The Road, but if you're a nerd like me and grew up on Heavy Metal, Epic Illustrated, and assorted post-apocalyptic science fiction novels, you've read about countless post-nuclear wastelands populated by roving bands of mutant killers. (NOTE: in The Road, it's never made quite clear exactly what happened to the Earth, just a flash of light occurring at a time which appears in all McCarthy's novels.) I personally found Blood Meridian much more disturbing, much more so than, say, A Clockwork Orange. So, I'm posting that caveat/warning. This book is in my opinion one of the greatest recent American novels - it was published in 1985, but it is full of licks and lashings of the ultraviolent. Be warned.

JAMES

[sixstrings5859]

We are still a young Nation with more growing to do. But in my opinion we are the best there is. The Constitution was so great we are still trying to fulfill it after all these years. May we never lift up arms against one another again. VOTE ! Regards,Scott