Microsoft Flight Simulator Announced 2019 - Page 8
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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganter View Post
    Thanks Gman, good to know we're all watching developments.
    I've really got in to your PBR discussions
    I definitely have been putting all of my energy into learning the PBR workflow. Anything that will support direct PBR integration including metalness, normal and height mapping, gloss, AO etc. directly into the working models has my vote.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by gman5250 View Post
    I definitely have been putting all of my energy into learning the PBR workflow. Anything that will support direct PBR integration including metalness, normal and height mapping, gloss, AO etc. directly into the working models has my vote.

    Nice one. It's like MS has caught up with you - not the other way round.

    Big respect.
    Jim
    NAVIGATION; The art of knowing where you are without having to crash into it first.

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by gman5250 View Post
    Yeah, I got the Unity information from the video interview posted above.
    If you're referring to the interview in post #152, I can't see where they mention MSFS in the video - it's just about new modelling tools for Unity for use with Windows Mixed Reality (unless I missed an important part).

  4. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by vortex View Post
    If you're referring to the interview in post #152, I can't see where they mention MSFS in the video - it's just about new modelling tools for Unity for use with Windows Mixed Reality (unless I missed an important part).
    After I listened to the interview in post #152 I added up 2+2, drawing from what I have seen and read in their press releases and see in the trailer vid. I would expect that if MS is exploring VR global mapping and building a revolutionary simulation platform, they would integrate the two. That plus what I have learned over the last number of years about scenery development and trying to fathom the massive MSFS data reservoir...my take away is MS is going to take Unity across multiple platforms. Other engines like Unreal approach VR in a different modality.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
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  5. #180
    Right on Gordon. I believe I mentioned Ray tracing in one of the other threads on SOH and was met with skepticism. Same thing happened with PBR coming to P3D when I mentioned that. I think we as an FS community need to come to grips with the emerging and in some cases (PBR) older tech that is standard in most other gaming. Devs need to learn the new work flows. Our whole hobby will be better off for it!

    It's pretty obvious that Ray Tracing will be in MSFS 2020. A year is a long time to integrate VR.
    Commercial AS/MEL & Instrument
    Certified Airplane Nut

  6. #181
    Actually, devs don't need to learn anything. If they don't want to. Until the manufacturers declare their true position with regard to developers' building and selling add-ons, especially as a commercially viable process, no developer in their right mind is going to spend any amount of time "learning" anything.

    We do not know enough to start making any kind of prediction. If MS want to go the factory-controlled content route, they will. That may not suit a lot of developers. And I wonder how many "freeware" developers are going to legitimately spring for the software required to produce high-end material let alone the hardware required to drive it?

  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by bazzar View Post
    Actually, devs don't need to learn anything. If they don't want to. Until the manufacturers declare their true position with regard to developers' building and selling add-ons, especially as a commercially viable process, no developer in their right mind is going to spend any amount of time "learning" anything.

    We do not know enough to start making any kind of prediction. If MS want to go the factory-controlled content route, they will. That may not suit a lot of developers. And I wonder how many "freeware" developers are going to legitimately spring for the software required to produce high-end material let alone the hardware required to drive it?

    I'll second that.

  8. #183
    I third that.

    Too early to say. Perhaps when the FSInsider or whatever it's called springs into life in August we may find out.

  9. #184
    I thought this might be interesting since Asobo and other developers maybe be involved MSFS.


    Of course, creating any open world comes with challenges that developers have to address, especially when players are moving through that world at breakneck speeds. Building the streaming technology to handle a massive world where the environments just fly by required the team to pay special attention to how objects were rendered in both the distance and near the player through a number of tools and graphics engine considerations.


    Gamasutra recently sat down with David Guillaume and Carl Pedimina of Ivory Tower to dig the technical aspects of creating an online world that is both massive and detailed. The full Q&A below explores lessons learned by the team during development, ranging from how and why devs zoned environments into areas and sectors to lighten the computational load to tips on how fellow game developers can address the issues that creep up during development of their own open world games.

    The core of this feature will be around what kind of technology you use to stream your world. How did you design it? How does it work?

    Pedimina: In the very beginning of the project, we tried to look at middleware like the Unreal Engine. It quickly appeared that this kind of game engine would not do. Our world is huge (approximately 120 km by 75 km) with a lot of different places and moods. Furthermore, the player can drive vehicles that can go over 600 km/h!


    However, we did not want to reinvent the wheel. So we decided to take the basis of the Dunia Engine (used at Ubisoft for the Far Cry series) and revamp it to our needs. Eventually, we rewrote a lot of things like the world editor, the game editor, the world management, the streaming strategy, the graphics engine… and we used only 10-15 percent of the original engine but it allowed us to quickly prototype and build our own engine by providing solid foundations.

    I think this is the most important statement he says...

    All in all, I think the most important point is the tools: managing a big map can be very tedious and hard to tackle. Computers are here to do automatic tasks, so build as many tools as possible to help you out: checkers, automated processes… There are so many challenges in game dev, so every bit of help is welcome!

    Source: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...open_world.php

    Map tool shown here and using Blender.

    https://zenhax.com/viewtopic.php?t=8879





  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by bazzar View Post
    Actually, devs don't need to learn anything. If they don't want to. Until the manufacturers declare their true position with regard to developers' building and selling add-ons, especially as a commercially viable process, no developer in their right mind is going to spend any amount of time "learning" anything.

    We do not know enough to start making any kind of prediction. If MS want to go the factory-controlled content route, they will. That may not suit a lot of developers. And I wonder how many "freeware" developers are going to legitimately spring for the software required to produce high-end material let alone the hardware required to drive it?
    Yeah you devs can and will do what you want. But honestly I don't care if freeware guys don't spring for the tools. We're entering a stage of gaming/simming that in order to really create content that passes muster of the visual realm in which it's placed will require more effort than has been required in the past. So if this means that attrition occurs, from my POV, so be it. Natural selection of the industry. Those that will survive will. Those who choose not to, won't. I'm not worried. My point is really, that the evolution of this sim is coming - whether it be with this new MSFS title or with v5+ of P3D -- and we should all be ready, as it's highly likely that the status quo will be challenged.
    Commercial AS/MEL & Instrument
    Certified Airplane Nut

  11. #186
    That has to be one of the most "head in the sand"comments I've read in this forum. You need to quit stating the blindingly obvious and like all of us, wait. Do you really think commercial developers haven't thought about what's coming? You talk about attrition... hah! Just how many commercial developers do you think there are in this hobby? And just where do you think you are going to acquire new add-ons if freeware people stop because they can no longer afford to support you? Oh yes, that's right...you don't care apparently.

  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Yeah you devs can and will do what you want. But honestly I don't care if freeware guys don't spring for the tools. We're entering a stage of gaming/simming that in order to really create content that passes muster of the visual realm in which it's placed will require more effort than has been required in the past. So if this means that attrition occurs, from my POV, so be it. Natural selection of the industry. Those that will survive will. Those who choose not to, won't. I'm not worried. My point is really, that the evolution of this sim is coming - whether it be with this new MSFS title or with v5+ of P3D -- and we should all be ready, as it's highly likely that the status quo will be challenged.
    Yep, I'll go along with that.

    Change is coming.
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    Big Devs going down - 'bout time.
    Jim
    NAVIGATION; The art of knowing where you are without having to crash into it first.

  13. #188
    Thanks for the adult response. Perhaps you would you give us all an idea of who you think is a "Big Dev"and why they would be "going down?"

  14. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by bazzar View Post
    That has to be one of the most "head in the sand"comments I've read in this forum. You need to quit stating the blindingly obvious and like all of us, wait. Do you really think commercial developers haven't thought about what's coming? You talk about attrition... hah! Just how many commercial developers do you think there are in this hobby? And just where do you think you are going to acquire new add-ons if freeware people stop because they can no longer afford to support you? Oh yes, that's right...you don't care apparently.
    What's funny is that, when I originally mentioned PBR coming to P3D, you were one of those.that that opposed the post. Head in the sand??! Ha! You made me chuckle. Back to reality. You're one of many many developers out there. In fact, I think there are more active payware developers than I've ever seen in this hobby, right now.

    Where are we going to get our addons? From those that arise in the vaccum. It's free market econ man. Honestly I haven't touched a freeware product in about 3 years. I'm not saying they should leave, I'm saying that if they stay it will be the ones who advance their craft.

    State the obvious. I mentioned Ray tracing and was jumped on. I think you were part of that too? By the way all your PBR FB posts look great. Isn't it great that we can now enjoy that level of detail in our hobby?
    Captain obvious signing off.
    Commercial AS/MEL & Instrument
    Certified Airplane Nut

  15. #190
    You've missed the point. Nobody has ever denied that all this is possible for the hobby. What we are saying is just wait and see what transpires and stop badgering others into spending time and cash on chasing theory.

    It is simply not sensible for any developer to spend money (yes it will cost) and valuable time attempting to second -guess what people like Microsoft have in store. To create new assets for a new simulator platform with the kind of technology you are guessing might be there will not be cheap. Software costs alone are spiralling upward. We are talking thousands of dollars a year before we can even start work. The hardware to drive such technology will also be out of the reach of many. Of course we, like many developers, adapt and adopt. We have been doing just that for 20 years. But will people want to pay for all of this "evolution"?

    I seriously doubt it. They have problems paying for thousands of hours of work that goes into what we have now. So, what are we going to see? $150 add-ons?

    Historically, people don't like paying for DLC either. Yet, it is highly likely that the new sim will be subscription-based with add-ons only available via download and through a factory-governed store, on-line.

    More than any of the above, however, and what gets my goat is the toxic attitudes out there that actively appear to want developers to fail. Why? No developer, in my experience, has ever made anybody buy anything. If you don't like what you see don't buy it. Simple. So, are the devs doing people any harm? No. What they do is support and assist in growing the hobby - many for no recompense. So why the "celebration" that many will fall?

    And as for "Big devs", I haven't heard such nonsense in years. Most developer businesses are groups of less than 10 and often as few as 2 people. Sales in a good year, for most, might measure in the hundreds -certainly not thousands.

    So, for those who want to see these people fail , carry on, because the sad irony is that it is this same attitude that will kill the very hobby they appear to enjoy.

    The logic eludes me.

  16. #191
    Wow. Nobody knows for a fact yet what game engine is to be used, what tools the sdk will need and whether the new sim will be generally open to third-party development, but we’re already bickering over what developers “must” do. Microsoft haven’t told anyone yet!

    Popcorn, get your popcorn here!
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  17. #192
    Until I see it released, I consider it vaporware. Everyone is getting their panties wadded up over speculation.
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  18. #193
    I don't really have a dog in the fight, and I probably will not give this new sim too much attention other than to observe the implementations of technology MS chooses to use. My money is on Unity, but I've been wrong in the past.

    That said, I think that any developer or casual tinkerer who invests a modicum of time and energy into the known advancements i.e. PBR will benefit. I did explore some various technologies like Unreal, but realized that their applications in large scale VR were going to be unlikely...at least until such time as we all have quantum computers dangling from our studio ceilings. That particular foray left me in need of a complete re-install of 3D Studio, due to the residual bits of code left by a highly proprietary architecture. The opportunity to re-install Studio conveniently became a reality when the necessity arose that I build the new system.

    Taking into consideration the "known knowns", we can anticipate what will most likely come down the pike, whether it be from Microsoft or Lockheed Martin. Both are tight lipped, so the above comments all have merit. We know that Physically Based Rendering is here to stay based on what we have in hand in P3D and can be surmised from a deep look into the MS trailer. Where there is PBR, there will inevitably be a demand for ray tracing. We know where we are with NVIDIA on ray tracing.

    If you are a professional developer or casual user you will probably mull over the cost benefit of investing your time into learning PBR. This particular corner of the development process can be done without significant investment via GMAX/gimp and a modest investment in a Quixel license. That investment is less than I spend on coffee in a week, and I don't drink a ton of coffee. Learning the skills in advance of full PBR integration will definitely benefit everyone, and hopefully we will arrive at a place where, having done all of the interior and exterior skinning in 3D virtual space, those assets can plug directly into a simulator without need of "translating" the art. Admittedly, we are not there yet but to quote Dylan, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows". I'm banking on the probability that we will have two fully loaded PBR, full global spectrum simulation platforms next year. If not, I'm not out anything because I can still use PBR quite effectively in what I do have in hand now. As far as ray tracing goes, I'm learning particle physics just because I enjoy pain and abuse. If I never use those skills...it won't matter in fifty years.

    Certainly, I don't think anyone on this forum would actually celebrate the loss of any developer, regardless of their pay grade. I certainly mourn the loss of Real Air or any other who may not survive the economic hardships inherent in our commitment ot our passion. We don't do it for the money, even the mega companies who do make a reasonable living are struggling, much like a bodybuilder, with the need to constantly maintain their gains. As the two major flight platform designers go about their secret business, the mere mortals in this industry will consult their crystal balls regularly in an effort to remain relevant or mildly profitable.

    I'm out of the development curve now due to my mishap, but will fulfill my commitments to complete at least four projects I had begun pre-crash. If I choose to go strictly PBR, I'll most likely get fragged for leaving FSX behind. In my case it is a cost benefit analysis to the end user, not me. IMO, MS will leave FSX to wither on the vine when they drop support for Win7 and commit fully to the new sim/marketing venture, which will probably be subscription based. I arrive at that conclusion based on what I observe in the industry with Autodesk, Adobe and virtually every other software developer dropping support of physical media in favor of the cloud. The subscription aspect is not a problem for me because that's what I do now with P3D...at least until such time as LM produces a full PBR engine...or better. As I have a personal beef with MS, I most likely will not become involved with the new sim for personal reasons.

    One reason I love this forum, and its members...it is a venue where gentlemen and gentlewomen can engage in discourse that leaves the external world outside. We respect each others knowledge, skills and opinions and attempt to extend that respect to one another. Rick made some good points as well as Baz. Bottom line is we are all in the dark until such time as we can actually "kick the tires". I'll throw in my two bits here and there but, quite frankly, I'm spending most of my time restoring 60 year old redwood and improving my house, so I can't really render any in depth analysis of anything for the next few months. That said, I do spend five to six hours in the early AM tinkering about with mesh and code, so I'll be following these conversations and the intermittent updates on the new sim as time moves on. I'll make my course adjustments along the way, as I'm sure everyone else will do as well.

    IMHO...as always.
    Last edited by gman5250; July 19th, 2019 at 09:13.
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  19. #194
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    Looks amazing. I'm just concerned they'll follow their older ways; it won't run smooth until PCs of 2030 are here with liquid nitrogen cooling. 🤣
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  20. #195
    It's Microsoft.
    Big on promises and short on results.
    At this point in time nothing is certain and everyone who is NOT aware of the pitfalls in developing FS projects is fantasizing.
    Settle down ladies.
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  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat666 View Post
    It's Microsoft.
    Big on promises and short on results.
    At this point in time nothing is certain and everyone who is NOT aware of the pitfalls in developing FS projects is fantasizing.
    Settle down ladies.
    Exactly my sentiments
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  22. #197
    I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a new menu option that allows us to get sucked, Tron-style, into the game in order to dogfight bad guys within a fully immersive world where time means nothing and all beer is free, along with a brand-spanking new F-18E with my name on it. Nobody can be absolutely sure that option won't be there.
    I wish I had enough time to finish writing everything I sta...https://www.facebook.com/DC-Designs-2156295428024778/

  23. #198
    Free beer, now that's a worthwhile improvement. I'm in.

  24. #199
    I'm down with the beer as well. Where do I sign up?
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

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  25. #200
    There's free beer? Where????
    My computer:Win XP 32 Home SP3, Q9650 @ 3.6 GHz, 4GB DDR2-800 RAM @ 800 MHz, EVGA Nvidia 560Ti-SOC-1GB

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