How to fly the Milviz ADV Phantom?
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Thread: How to fly the Milviz ADV Phantom?

  1. #1

    How to fly the Milviz ADV Phantom?

    I have had the Milviz ADV F-4J since it was released, and have never figured out a easy way to trim this aircraft to be able to successfully fly it.

    Within seconds of taking off, the aircraft becomes a airborne bucking bronco. Is there a way to autotrim this beast? It is so damn hard to control. NC

  2. #2
    In the MVAMS application (that external app to configure your aircraft from Milviz), check the Phantom configuration, especially the dead zones. I set them to zero, else I get a very strange behavior in flight.
    Excepted that, I can't remember right now, but isn't there some dampening system to activate in the cockpit ? For roll and pitch ?
    I love the Milviz Phantoms so much and I don't have any issues to fly them (excepted an engine burning from time to time when I'm in the parking, waiting for that damned INS to warm up...)

  3. #3
    You trimmed 2 units nose down trim before takeoff?

    All 3 SAS switches on?

    Trim commands assigned in the MVAMS?

    @Daube the pitch/roll damp and deadzones are only for the Control Stick Steering mode when the autopilot attitude hold is on.
    -JB

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto-kun View Post
    You trimmed 2 units nose down trim before takeoff?

    All 3 SAS switches on?

    Trim commands assigned in the MVAMS?

    @Daube the pitch/roll damp and deadzones are only for the Control Stick Steering mode when the autopilot attitude hold is on.

    Thanks for your reply (and Daube's as well!). I will confirm all the above and report back! NC

  5. #5
    Please! I have the same problems.
    Your English is better than my French, German, Italian, Spanish.... so no worries my friends!


  6. #6
    Well, I tried applying the 2 units of Nose trim down adjustment. It is still very difficult to control. Not fun to fly, unless I can get this figured out. I understand this ADV model was designed to add more realism, but this is not cool! Beautiful model though. NC

  7. #7
    It is indeed not easy but quite satisfying once you manage it.

    The prerequisites are to have these two units of trim down and all 3 SAS switches to on. Then when you reach rotation speed pull nose up but be ready to trim down aggressively once speed builds up. In general speed up means trim down and to keep either a constant climb or level flight, trim switch should be within easy reach. Pushing gently down on the stick may also help but one needs to be careful not to overdo it and start a pilot induced pitch oscillation.

    Hope this will help but in any case lots of practice is needed.

  8. #8
    I've had hundreds of hours of stick time on the standard MilViz phantoms without a problem, including carrier ops, but I can not fly the ADV models on my rig. The issues occur when flaps move. I can get in the air okay (it's a real fight when flaps retract, but I manage). I have never successfully landed however. On initial approach, when flaps extend, about 90% of the time, I go in to an unrecoverable dive. No amoung of trim or stick can save me usually. On the rare occasion thst I somehow manage to avoid a dirt nap during that phase, actually landing in an sort of a controlled manner has never been achieved.

    I've assumed it was my issue (some config. or setting), so after many attempts, I've uninstalled the Phantoms. I'm actually happy to hear this isn't my issue alone as what NC has described is my experience as well, and I don't believe that it's piloting skills.
    Your English is better than my French, German, Italian, Spanish.... so no worries my friends!


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimus View Post
    It is indeed not easy but quite satisfying once you manage it.

    The prerequisites are to have these two units of trim down and all 3 SAS switches to on. Then when you reach rotation speed pull nose up but be ready to trim down aggressively once speed builds up. In general speed up means trim down and to keep either a constant climb or level flight, trim switch should be within easy reach. Pushing gently down on the stick may also help but one needs to be careful not to overdo it and start a pilot induced pitch oscillation.

    Hope this will help but in any case lots of practice is needed.
    Just what I do. I don't actually measure the amount of down trim needed. I just keep going.....

    Quote Originally Posted by odourboy View Post
    I've had hundreds of hours of stick time on the standard MilViz phantoms without a problem, including carrier ops, but I can not fly the ADV models on my rig. The issues occur when flaps move. I can get in the air okay (it's a real fight when flaps retract, but I manage). I have never successfully landed however. On initial approach, when flaps extend, about 90% of the time, I go in to an unrecoverable dive. No amoung of trim or stick can save me usually. On the rare occasion thst I somehow manage to avoid a dirt nap during that phase, actually landing in an sort of a controlled manner has never been achieved.
    Strange, I don't get this issue at all. I'm with you on it being more of a 'controlled-crash', though.

    Dave

  10. #10
    What sort of speeds are you guys extending the flaps at?
    -JB

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto-kun View Post
    What sort of speeds are you guys extending the flaps at?
    It's been a while so I'm not 100% on this figure, but around 210-220 IIRC. Also, I think the flaps will extend on their own at about 230ish if the weren't manually retracted, right? I've tried that as well with the same unfortunate outcome.
    Last edited by odourboy; May 19th, 2019 at 16:26.
    Your English is better than my French, German, Italian, Spanish.... so no worries my friends!


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto-kun View Post
    What sort of speeds are you guys extending the flaps at?

    You mean for landing? NC

  13. #13
    I had a similar issue with the T-38C and F-4E ADV. No other Milviz model has had this issue. Not sure what to make of it. I thought it might be interference between the physics modeling of EZDOK 3 and the model's realism settings but cutting the former off, the issue still persists.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by StormILM View Post
    I had a similar issue with the T-38C and F-4E ADV. No other Milviz model has had this issue. Not sure what to make of it. I thought it might be interference between the physics modeling of EZDOK 3 and the model's realism settings but cutting the former off, the issue still persists.
    I have a suggestion for your T-38C problem. I had trouble until I realized it was ignoring my trim input. The trim controls on my stick are mapped to the P3D trim axis, and have always worked fine for the rest of my fleet, but not the T-38C. However, when I explicitly mapped the trim controls through the T-38C configuration in MVAMS, I was flying.
    Your English is better than my French, German, Italian, Spanish.... so no worries my friends!


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by StormILM View Post
    I had a similar issue with the T-38C and F-4E ADV. No other Milviz model has had this issue. Not sure what to make of it. I thought it might be interference between the physics modeling of EZDOK 3 and the model's realism settings but cutting the former off, the issue still persists.
    Ezdock 2 is known to clash with our external flight models. I don't know about 3, but I am wary of their product. Chaseplane I think is better.
    -JB

  16. #16
    I do have ChasePlane, but it is currently not installed. I guess I am just getting old (and lazy), and didn't want to have to constantly fiddle with trim adjustments! NC

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by odourboy View Post
    I have a suggestion for your T-38C problem. I had trouble until I realized it was ignoring my trim input. The trim controls on my stick are mapped to the P3D trim axis, and have always worked fine for the rest of my fleet, but not the T-38C. However, when I explicitly mapped the trim controls through the T-38C configuration in MVAMS, I was flying.
    I will give that a try and see if it helps.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto-kun View Post
    Ezdock 2 is known to clash with our external flight models. I don't know about 3, but I am wary of their product. Chaseplane I think is better.
    I never had crashing issues with Ezdok 2 or 3 with any of the Milviz models while we were Alpha or Beta testing. They have been stable on every model thus far. Ezdok 1 was a pain for me.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  19. #19
    One other question: are your realism sliders fully to the right? We had hypersensitivity problems in the T-38C and F-15C during testing that I couldn’t figure out until I found the testers had their realism sliders at the default positions.
    -JB

  20. #20
    Mine are full right, ignore crash detection, also cut off the T-38C's realism on it's menu. Nothing helps. I start the takeoff, all is normal until I rotate, it never gets airborne, the tires blow and then either the gear folds and the engines FOD out or it bounces into the air, gear still damaged, usually one engine out. I had a similar problem with the F-4E ADV in FSX. I rolled back to the base F-4, all was fine.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  21. #21
    I just made a new test flight using the F-4J Silver Kings
    I chose a light payload, with just half internal fuel from the load manager.
    After taking off, I played around with the trim. For info, I use only the default P3D trim commands, which are mapped to two buttons on my joystick.

    The trim really had to be adjusted quite a lot.
    If the flaps are down, the plane will want to nose down quite a lot.
    If the air-brake is deployed, the plane will want to nose up a lot.
    The nose up/down tendency also depends on the general airspeed.

    So yes, not an easy plane to stabilize, unless you're in stable flight conditions (which I was not, since I was circling and doing loopings around the airbase :P ) but nothing impossible. Makes the plane feel more lively than the more recent fly-by-wire beasts. In fact, that Phantom might well be my favorite jet to fly, together with the Tomcats (Dino and Aerosoft), but followed closely by the Milviz F-100 and F-86
    Ah, did I mention the IRIS A-10 too ? I have too much jets

  22. #22
    Just taking the opportunity to ask though: how to turn on the external lights ?
    It's killing me. I set all the switches to ON in the external lights section (right side of the pilot), excepted that ONE switch which is not clickable. Am I missing anything ?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Daube View Post
    Just taking the opportunity to ask though: how to turn on the external lights ?
    It's killing me. I set all the switches to ON in the external lights section (right side of the pilot), excepted that ONE switch which is not clickable. Am I missing anything ?
    You have to enable the master exterior lights switch first. I linked it to the [L] key in MVAMS (under miscellaneous controls > master exterior lights).

    BTW: After moving to P3Dv4.5 the standard F-4 did not work anymore so although I did not want all the ADV/TP bells and whistles, I bought the ADV module. I never liked the pitch trim and the strong oscillations, I wish there was a way to use the old standard version in P3Dv4.5. I shelved the MV birds because the SimWorks studios F-4B suits me much better.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by StormILM View Post
    Mine are full right, ignore crash detection, also cut off the T-38C's realism on it's menu. Nothing helps. I start the takeoff, all is normal until I rotate, it never gets airborne, the tires blow and then either the gear folds and the engines FOD out or it bounces into the air, gear still damaged, usually one engine out. I had a similar problem with the F-4E ADV in FSX. I rolled back to the base F-4, all was fine.
    The T-38C I am struggling to understand, since with the ADV realism slider turned off you shouldn't get failures period. And its actually easier to fly than the Phantom, at least for me. I am wondering just how much stick you guys are giving....

    One of the things that might explain why I find it really easy to fly both, barring any anomalies on your systems, is I have my stick mounted on a stand between my knees, just as it would be in the real jet. While I don't have the same range of motion that the real jet has due to stick length, placing it between my knees allows me to rest my arm on my leg and fly with fine wrist movements rather than whole arm movements.

    I learned this when I first tried DCS A-10C, which I find quite frankly more sensitive to pilot inputs than either the Phantom or the T-38C.
    -JB

  25. #25

    Milviz ADV Phantom FDE

    As the name indicates, I'm an actual retired Naval Aviator. This FDE is unlike any USN aircraft that I have flown. The steps listed to get this Phantom to be able to stop wildly cavorting around the sky are unacceptable (it should NOT fly the way it does!) . I have (unsuccessfully) tried to substitute an .air file from another similar aircraft. As noted, it never flew this way previously. Milviz?

    Bill

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