How to fly the Milviz ADV Phantom?

[Navy Chief]

I've been using direct input pretty much since it became available as an option, and I have to agree with you. Just because a few can fly it (yes, I managed a few complete flights yesterday) doesn't make it right. However, I'm not a RW pilot so I'm not in a position of authority to evaluate the handling.

I changed to direct input. Reassigned all control buttons/axis. I just am not able to get this jet under control. Beautiful model, but..... NC

[gary20]

Same here ...

I seem to remember it wasnt as bad before updating to the Advanced series.
I only updated for the Tacpack capabilities. It's a shame Tacpack and the advanced models werent seperate.
It has to be the FDE and as previously stated it cant be modified without screwing it up.

It's a shame but it's unflyable for me and therefore unusable.

[Navy Chief]

Same here ...

I seem to remember it wasnt as bad before updating to the Advanced series.
I only updated for the Tacpack capabilities. It's a shame Tacpack and the advanced models werent seperate.
It has to be the FDE and as previously stated it cant be modified without screwing it up.

It's a shame but it's unflyable for me and therefore unusable.

Yes, correct. The "pre-ADV" was easy to fly. But, as I understand it, is not compatible with P3DV4? NC

[dhazelgrove]

I don't understand this at all.

I'm having no issues with this product at all.

It's true that a large amount of 'nose-down' trim input is needed at the start, but I don't have any issues once that's sorted.

Dave

[CavOk]

I don't understand this at all.

I'm having no issues with this product at all.

It's true that a large amount of 'nose-down' trim input is needed at the start, but I don't have any issues once that's sorted.

Dave

Hi Dave
Those of us having issues don't understand it either. The direct input v Raw idea seems to be a red herring. I can say with absolute certainty that on my rig it makes no difference. I've now abandoned the Milviz Addon Management System for control input and I'm using the sim via FSUIPC.
On other models this set up works like a dream.

[CavOk]

This might interest the techies. The other day I switched off Force Feed Back in P3D and noticed a slight improvement. A few minutes ago I disconnected the Force Feed Back plug on my Wingman joystick and lo and behold the pitching oscillations are considerably improved. Is there a clue here?

[odourboy]

I don't understand this at all.

I'm having no issues with this product at all.

It's true that a large amount of 'nose-down' trim input is needed at the start, but I don't have any issues once that's sorted.

Dave

Interesting. Would you say it's fair to characterize its handling with the ADV FDE, aside from some initial trimming, as very similar to the original FDE in all flight phases?

For me, they are not. Particularly during takeoff and landing phases. Given how much design and testing (and apparent accuracy) went into the original FDE, I would have expected the ADV to be very similar, except for some finness around the finer points. Instead, I'm experiencing something quite different.

My impression of the ADV is on the pitch axis, the aircraft is like it's balanced on a knife edge. Any pitch input (flaps, trim, elevator) result in a wild over reaction. It is extremely difficult to balance, and changes (like flaps), result in a wild race to rebalance, often without success. Further, I feel the trim authority is too extreme and elevator, very weak, which makes the balancing act thst much more challenging.

[Navy Chief]

Interesting. Would you say it's fair to characterize its handling with the ADV FDE, aside from some initial trimming, as very similar to the original FDE in all flight phases?

For me, they are not. Particularly during takeoff and landing phases. Given how much design and testing (and apparent accuracy) went into the original FDE, I would have expected the ADV to be very similar, except for some finness around the finer points. Instead, I'm experiencing something quite different.

My impression of the ADV is on the pitch axis, the aircraft is like it's balanced on a knife edge. Any pitch input (flaps, trim, elevator) result in a wild over reaction. It is extremely difficult to balance, and changes (like flaps), result in a wild race to rebalance, often without success. Further, I feel the trim authority is too extreme and elevator, very weak, which makes the balancing act thst much more challenging.

I do like, and appreciate your assessment! NC

[Naruto-kun]

This might interest the techies. The other day I switched off Force Feed Back in P3D and noticed a slight improvement. A few minutes ago I disconnected the Force Feed Back plug on my Wingman joystick and lo and behold the pitching oscillations are considerably improved. Is there a clue here?

FFB is one item I forgot to add to my list at the top of the second page, but I did mention it further down.

The reason I brought up DirectInput vs Raw is because the T-38C ran into it during testing, and it also uses the same ADV physics engine.

[Wings of Gold]

The problem for me is that FFB gives very realistic feedback to stick input, Without it you really do not replicate the real world. You have not yet answered my observation: If I can very successfully fly the new Milviz SR-71 Beta (also using my FFB stick) - why can't your FDE for the Phantom do the same? I also don't understand why the previous Phantom version FDE had NO problems (also with my FFB), and now we have a list of things we can't use. No list previously! Bill

[dhazelgrove]

Can you raise this as a ticket over at the Milviz support forums?
You're more likely to get your issues addressed over there.

Dave

[Naruto-kun]

The problem for me is that FFB gives very realistic feedback to stick input, Without it you really do not replicate the real world. You have not yet answered my observation: If I can very successfully fly the new Milviz SR-71 Beta (also using my FFB stick) - why can't your FDE for the Phantom do the same? I also don't understand why the previous Phantom version FDE had NO problems (also with my FFB), and now we have a list of things we can't use. No list previously! Bill

Because the SR-71 doesn't use the external flight model system that the ADV aircraft do which is completely external to the simulator. We had to make a compromise, and the results are far better without the poor modelling of FFB in P3D, than they would be with FFB without the external flight model.

[odourboy]

Can you raise this as a ticket over at the Milviz support forums?
You're more likely to get your issues addressed over there.

Dave

I expect if JB felt it was better served to move this discussion to the MV support forum, he'd suggest it. It's still not clear that there is a problem. You, Dimus, JB don't think there's a problem, it's just a "challenging" aircraft. I'm trying to quantify the extent and specific nature of the issue, if any, or help figure out why a number of us are having difficulty that can be fixed at our end. What's interesting is that the majority of users here on this thread are having difficulty. I doubt that datum would have come out if this was started on the support forum. Your specific input and comments on your experience of old vs new might be helpful.

[Naruto-kun]

I have encountered more than one person with oversensitivity issues with all our ADV models in the support forums and tester chats though, and in each case it has always been one configuration issue or another that has been the cause. Once the configuration problems were sorted the person was able to fly.

[Dimus]

Today I realized that I was using raw input instead of direct. I changed it and the F-4 became much stabler, I have to say close to the original FDE, although it has been quite a while since I had flown that. Trim input was minimal during configuration changes. I was able to take off with 2.5 units of forward trim without need to retrim as speed built up, just slight stick forward input. The circuit and landing was also stable. Sorry, I was not able to make a video of it.

The change to direct also made the T-38C flyable to me. I have to admit that it was not before.

If not using FFB is a deal breaker for you then the ADV models might not be for you. I would suggest anyone having a problem to go to the MV forums and Jon would help you set up and fly.

[Navy Chief]

I have encountered more than one person with oversensitivity issues with all our ADV models in the support forums and tester chats though, and in each case it has always been one configuration issue or another that has been the cause. Once the configuration problems were sorted the person was able to fly.

Perhaps, Naruto-kun, but I respectfully refer back to Wings of Gold's comment that the pre-ADV model's FDE did not have such problems. Now granted, it was not the "ADV" model, but surely there should be a easier way to make this model easier to fly? NC

[Wings of Gold]

Hi Guys,

I too changed to Direct input. Made no difference at all (that I could tell). I also disconnected my FFB stick. Still have the same issues. A Phantom should be able to board the ship at about 150 kias (with appropriate fuel). I am (IMHO) a reasonable "sticK" but under 200 knots it will shortly depart.
I will go to the Milviz forum, as you suggest - but I suspect I will shortly become either a virtual F-14 or F-8 driver.

Best to you all,

Bill

[CavOk]

At last a smooth flight. FFB reinstated, flight controls calibrated thru FSUIPC, and what seems to have made the most difference FSUIPC Miscellaneous tab and tick Control Spike Elimination for rudder elevator and aileron.
Give this a try.

[Naruto-kun]

Aside from DirectInput and FFB, I made a list of several other items, like realism sliders, which should be changed. Please check my list near the top of page 2 of this thread. As indicated by others in this thread, they made changes to their config and now the jet is stable. It can be a whole combination of factors causing the instability, not just one. And I should also mention one item regard realism sliders: If they are just slightly off max, even though appearing to be close, potential issues. (P.S. I am Jonathan Bleeker (lead Phantom dev) on Milviz forums.....) (link to list: https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforu...=1#post1185654 )

[odourboy]

Just for the record, still no joy here with compliance to all the items on your checklist.

[Naruto-kun]

Question: When you move your stick, what does the cockpit stick animation look like? Is it proportional to your physical inputs?

[odourboy]

Yes, the stick animation appears to track my actual stick movements quite closely. I also see a similar response when compared to the MV T38C, T38A and F100D.

One question, since I did nor explore this setting extensively: What axis sensitivity setting would you recommend?

I'll also say, for clarification, that once at a decent cruising speed, flaps up etc., I am able to control it things fine. The excessive pitchyness is most apparent at slower (i.e. during take off and approach) speeds. For instance, I could never do a carrier landing on my setup right now.

[Naruto-kun]

Max sensitivity. Otherwise you get funny values coming through the axis events.

At slow speeds, you want to make sure that you are going fast enough for your weight. Best get your jet down to a pretty light fuel load. They normally trapped these things near empty.

[Craig Taylor]

Max sensitivity. Otherwise you get funny values coming through the axis events.

I've been following this thread for some time, and this seems to have made the difference for me. Just did a test circuit out of the default field, trying it out with axis sensitivities maxed and null zones at 19, and the F-4J seemed pretty stable for me. It will take me a little while to get used to the new sensitivities, because the bird seems susceptible to pilot-induced oscillations. I use a CH Fighterstick, and it takes a bit of effort to deflect the joystick, so that will take some practice (oh no, more flying! ).

Still seems a bit sensitive with the nose trim control, but that could just be my set-up in P3D.

Thanks for all the assistance, JB.

[odourboy]

Max sensitivity. Otherwise you get funny values coming through the axis events.

At slow speeds, you want to make sure that you are going fast enough for your weight. Best get your jet down to a pretty light fuel load. They normally trapped these things near empty.

Having tanks near empty does improve the aircraft's manageability for landing. I still think there is room for improvement in terms of pitch control responsiveness/oscillations.