Milviz stops developping FSX airplanes

***Priller*** · February 21st, 2019, 05:24

Somehow it seems inevitable that FSX(:SE) will be dropped by more and more devs. I don't think that there are payware devs still developing for FS9/CFS2/CFS3, or are there?

32 bit just is a thing of the past. it gave us huge enjoyment, but things evolve. As a young lad, I enjoyed my first car immensely. A second hand Citroën Visa 1.4. But I wouldn't think of buying one today! Things evolve and 32 bit has just been pushed out of the evolution. Call it Darwinism.

Not only that, but FSX stopped evolving almost right after it's release. P3D is still moving on. Same thing for X-Plane, but somehow I don't really like that platform. It's Prepar3D all the way for me.

And please: "don't mention the EULA".

Cheers,

Priller

**Bjoern** · February 21st, 2019, 07:21

It's a fair decision. FSX is absolutely done for in terms of rendering engine capability when confronted with all the high poly models that are prevalent nowadays.

**dggoofy** · February 21st, 2019, 07:57

Originally Posted by Josh Patterson

Me too Jafo, me too. Maybe since it was started before the announcement it will be Milviz's final hurrah on FSX?

Nop... finished... end... stop. Even the very soon T38C will be released for P3D 4.4 only...

**dvj** · February 21st, 2019, 14:04

Originally Posted by ********

From my chair:

All of the above comments are valid and indicative of a common dilemma. Technology and markets are always moving forward.
If I may, I'd like to add one or two additional observations.

I find myself in a situation where I am more or less forced to build a completely new system, with very limited resources. I am, of course, in need of a system that is capable of not only running a 64bit simulation platform, but also effectively managing resource intensive art, video & 3D modeling software. After some concentrated research I find that I will be able to pull off my rebuild for less than I had originally forecast, and move up to a Generation 9 system. Am I making sacrifices to make it happen? Sure.

For those who are comfortable in FSX 32bit that's a great thing. Add-ons are plentiful and very well developed. If your concerns about moving into P3D 64bit center on the cost of upgrading systems, let me offer some good news.

The price of processing, video cards, memory and storage have become very favorable for building extremely capable systems at a modest cost. Tech has advanced so quickly in the last two years, what used to be considered expensive has become quite affordable. Memory, SSD, CPU, GPU and motherboards only one generation old have come down dramatically. Realistically, one can build a very fast and capable system for a few hundred dollars. I would do some serious price shopping and find out exactly what it would cost to build a system that would suit your needs. You may be pleasantly surprised. I was.

That said, I'd like to make a point about P3Dv4 64bit/PBR in its current version, and V5 which will most likely be full PBR...from the developers standpoint.

PREPAR3D is coming very, very close to a stage of development that rivals, or even surpasses DCS. Bear in mind that P3D is a global simulator, that will very likely make full use of Physically Based Rendering and eventually ray tracing. The impact of that cannot be understated, especially as it applies to the simulation environment. My ongoing PBR development, including side by side comparison of DCS and P3Dv4 PBR have shown me, conclusively, that the two are becoming virtually indistinguishable. This brings me to the point of the developers.

When developers begin to focus on modeling for P3D using the same tools and techniques that DCS developers have been exploring for quite some time, the improvements in that simulation will be dramatic. This comes at a cost. Speaking from my own experience working with PBR modeling, particle rendering, ray tracing and their applications in the simulator, it is logical that developers must choose carefully where they wish to place their R&D energies.

The differences between FSX modeling and 64bit PBR modeling will very shortly require that any developer who wishes to offer products for both will be required to maintain two separate and dedicated development modalities. This will require twice the energy and expense. The learning curve alone is prohibitively expensive and the investments in software can be staggering. Most developers are small or mid sized operations. Some are individuals. Amortizing the cost of moving into the main stream "gaming" world are simply unrealistic when attempting to maintain two work flows, art programs, marketing, support...etc.

Our community is facing a kind of crossroads. The good thing is that everyone can make their own choice and remain very comfortable with their decisions. I support the developers who choose to move forward as the technology moves upward on the exponential. I also encourage any and all interested in developing for FSX to learn the process. The software is inexpensive, some of it is even free i.3. GMAX or Gimp. Those are fine platforms and can be utilized very well.

I have enjoyed Milviz projects, including the King Air in it's various stages of development, for years now. I'll be quite content to wait for that airplane and all future releases. I absolutely can't wait to see what comes out of their labs for V5. I congratulate them for their commitment to a fine product line over the years, and for the courage to make a tough decision.

Kudos, and good luck gentlemen.

gman, I would value your input. What hardware configuration are you suggesting for a few hundred dollars to drive P3D? By the time I put in a new motherboard, power supply, adequate memory, SSD, hard drive, graphics card, 64 bit OS, and a late gen CPU, I find my cost in the thousands of dollars.

-d

***Priller*** · February 21st, 2019, 14:22

Why would you need a new PSU? Oh, and btw, any rig with a 4 GHz processor (in turbo mode or overclocked), 16 Gb's of ram, a 500 Gb SSD and a graphics card with 8 Gb's of it's own ram will run P3D v4.4 quite nicely. That is hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

**expat** · February 21st, 2019, 14:39

You just made my point earlier with far fewer words. Unlike the move from FS9 to FSX now many years ago which required a pricey jump in gear, the move from FSX to P3D is being misunderstood to require a similar outlay however this is is not necessary.

**BendyFlyer** · February 21st, 2019, 23:10

I would say it is a healthy cross section of users who have posted to the news about MILVIZ and probably a quite representative cross section. I have no issues what so ever with the more up to date software or the programming benefits plus how it opens up the platform to cross integration and hence even more improvement. I have quite a few MILVIZ products and they are all first class sure they will become even better. Not sure however as I said in my first post how you can grow or hold onto a profitable market given the proliferation of other gaming products which are not flight simulation. Gosh even my 6 year old grand daughters go on line and game away with 30 or 40 others chasing dragons or similar.

**gman5250** · February 22nd, 2019, 06:13

Originally Posted by dvj

gman, I would value your input. What hardware configuration are you suggesting for a few hundred dollars to drive P3D? By the time I put in a new motherboard, power supply, adequate memory, SSD, hard drive, graphics card, 64 bit OS, and a late gen CPU, I find my cost in the thousands of dollars.

-d

For my repair, it was necessary to replace my Mobo and CPU. I decided that I should go Generation 9, so that meant new memory. I chose to switch from water cooling to thermal, and I added an M.2 drive to the build for the OS. I kept my tower, GPU, optical drives, external storage and my 2.5 GB SSD that currently houses my sim. I also purchased a new PSU, but that may or may not have been the problem, so I'll leave that out of the rebuild cost.

I did a ton of research on CPU speed/temps, SSD life expectancy, RAM speed/latency, system optimization and heat management. The new build will optimize the system, using the M.2 for the OS, optical drives for big data storage (only a single 2TB WD Black onboard) and external server for additional optical storage. When P3Dv5 is released I'll add a 2TB M.2 NVMe for that purpose. FYI, leave a lot of space open on an SSD for system re-write cycles. The new system will run lean and efficiently, utilizing the various components to the best overall performance.

One important thing to bear in mind, using SSD appropriately improves load speeds. Optical storage is much better for data, but slower. I plan to add another 32GB of RAM later for 3D Studio, Photoshop, Quixel, Substance Painter and the video software. That should cover it!

I swallowed the pain and went for this build for one reason. I intend to develop for 64bit, full PBR, ray tracing platforms. I can't do it on a mediocre system.

The new system build: Prices in USD on Newegg

MoBo: ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E $259.99
I don't plan on overclocking, so I kept my cost lower by not purchasing boards designed for that purpose.

CPU: Intel Core i_9 9900K $599.99
I stepped up to the plate on this one because most of my time is in development & video work. Flying is a lower priority, but it will certainly benefit from a rock crusher CPU.

Memory: CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 $249.99
I could save a few bucks here, but I opted for the RGB "Bling"...call it whimsy.

Cooler Master: Master Maker 8 $114.95
The 9900k runs warm, but well with acceptable if not overclocked. I did the research and decided that thermal cooling would suit my requirements, and avoid the possibility of freezing or leaking from my aging AIO Corsair water loop. The Master Maker 8 runs within one or two degrees of an AIO, so that's fine for me.

Note: The thermal unit has two fans and can be rotated to accommodate memory stick height, and more importantly, to direct airflow. The unit sits directly over the GPU so the fans can be used to enhance airflow around the GPU, M.2 onboard SSDs, and memory sticks. Overall the airflow can be controlled and interior air pressure adjusted for optimum airflow. All it needs is cowl flaps. lol

Total $1,224.92

The optional M.2 was another $167.99
SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 2280 1TB SATA III V-NAND 3-bit MLC Internal Solid State Drive

That was an acceptable upgrade investment for me, considering my needs. It's also a huge upgrade from what I already had. See stats.
This is going to be a monster.

A good Generation 7 machine, with forward comparability and which will run a 64bit sim can be done for substantially less if you keep your tower and peripherals.

i7 An Alternative Re-Build

i7 Intel or comparable AMD processor starts a little under $400.00

Gen7 MoBo $150.00

250GB SSD $49.00

Memory 16GB $127.00

That's an extremely capable system, and comparable to what I was running before the system died. I was easily making 60+ FPS in V4 with the old system. That's fantastic and good even for video work.

I would suggest that anyone wanting to attempt their own build do their due diligence, cross check system specs for compatibility and watch a few build tutorials. With the new generation hardware it's pretty hard to bork a build, and you can save a ton.

Hope this was helpful.

**dvj** · February 22nd, 2019, 06:25

Originally Posted by ********

For my repair, it was necessary to replace my Mobo and CPU. I decided that I should go Generation 9, so that meant new memory. I chose to switch from water cooling to thermal, and I added an M.2 drive to the build for the OS. I kept my tower. GPU, spinning drives, external storage and my 2.5 gig SSD that currently houses my sim. I also purchased a new PSU, but that may or may not have been the problem, so I'll leave that out of the rebuild cost.

My repair build: Prices in USD on Newegg

MoBo: ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E $259.99
I don't plan on overclocking, so I kept my cost lower by not purchasing boards designed for that purpose.

CPU Intel Core i_9 9900K $599.99
I stepped up to the plate on this one because most of my time is in development & video work. Flying is a lower priority.

Memory:CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 $249.99

Thermal Cooler: Cooler Master Master Maker 8 $114.95

Total $1,224.92

The optional M.2 was another $167.99
SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 2280 1TB SATA III V-NAND 3-bit MLC Internal Solid State Drive

That was an acceptable upgrade investment for me, considering my needs. It's also a huge upgrade from what I already had. See stats.

A good Generation 7 machine, with forward comparability and which will run a 64bit sim can be done for substantially less if you keep your tower and peripherals.

i7 or comparable AMD processor starts a little under $400.00

Gen7 MoBo $150.00

250GB SSD $ 49.00

Memory 16GB $127.00

That's an extremely capable system, and comparable to what I was running before the system died. I was easily making 60+ FPS in V4 with the old system. That's fantastic and good even for video work.

I would suggest that anyone wanting to attempt their own build do their due diligence, cross check system specs for compatibility and watch a few build tutorials. With the new generation hardware it's pretty hard to bork a build, and you can save a ton.

Hope this was helpful.

SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 2280 1TB SATA III V-NAND 3-bit MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZ-

Very helpful. And I am sure for many others too.

thanks!

***WarHorse47*** · February 22nd, 2019, 06:53

Originally Posted by dvj

Very helpful. And I am sure for many others too.

thanks!

Not necessarily... I for one do not have the technical knowledge or skills that Gman has to put together such a system. Furthermore, what is missing for me is the effort or cost to get things up and running smoothly BEFORE purchasing and install a new flight sim.

When I migrated to Win8.1 I spent hours attempting to install some older software, only to end up purchasing a compatible replacement with the right drivers. After reading about the horrors some folks experience with Win10 I can only imagine how many hours I would spend on that migration.

As for P3D I'm just going to wait until the time is right. For now, I'll stick with what I have.

**gman5250** · February 22nd, 2019, 07:44

Originally Posted by WarHorse47

Not necessarily... I for one do not have the technical knowledge or skills that Gman has to put together such a system. Furthermore, what is missing for me is the effort or cost to get things up and running smoothly BEFORE purchasing and install a new flight sim.

When I migrated to Win8.1 I spent hours attempting to install some older software, only to end up purchasing a compatible replacement with the right drivers. After reading about the horrors some folks experience with Win10 I can only imagine how many hours I would spend on that migration.

As for P3D I'm just going to wait until the time is right. For now, I'll stick with what I have.

OK...this is important.

One month ago, when the system went south, I knew nothing about building computers, specs or the technical labyrinth associated with the process. I've used this time to learn as much as I could, in order that I can do my own build. I've never built a PC before.

Basically, you need a Phillips Head Screwdriver...that's it. The assembly is logical and requires very little technical knowledge beyond grounding yourself prior to the build. I'm completely confident that I can do the build, and if I can...anyone can.

Windows 10...that's a deep well, but I can tell you that I have tamed the beast and it works quite well for me. Turn off all of the telemetry features and the OS is very placid. There are good install tutorials on that.

Regarding P3D, I still rent by the month for less than the cost of three Starbucks coffees. Maybe I'll buy V5, but I won't know until we get there.

***wombat666*** · February 22nd, 2019, 15:28

Building your own system is actually quite simple IF you plan properly before you spend a single $.
Read each and every manual or review, ask questions (there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers) and shop at a PC specialist store, not a chain.
All building your own consists of is connecting cables and fitting parts into a box.
I've been doing it since 1997 for myself and family, friends and the odd blow in, as for costs, buy cheap and you get (mostly) crap.

Buy smart and ALWAYS negotiate.

My current build is relatively capable, BUT if I run intense weather and cloud cover at high setting I will often get the BSOD........so I have a new build taking shape.
What you first must take into account is what you want to run, then decide on a budget.
I liken it to tuning cars, 'How fast do you want to go? ........How much have you got to spend?'

Be aware of the caveats that usually come with a commercially built system, often with a notice (in very small print) that if the case is opened before a specified time the warranty (if any) is void.

Now get out there and roll your own.

And a PS: I prefer to buy P3D up front, it's cheaper than most of the payware releases these days.
I should add that my system does duty as a pixel pusher for my photography as well as assorted sims.

As Gordon mentions, you really only need a Phillips Head screwdriver (actually two, a stubby and a right angle) but an extension magnet strut is also really useful..........

**hairyspin** · February 22nd, 2019, 23:47

As Gordon says. It’s really easy to put together a pc and so long as you do your homework you’ll wonder afterwards what the fuss was about. Check sizes for memory modules in case they sit under big heatsinks like a cpu cooler and don’t buy a full size motherboard for a microATX case! This is my second build I’m posting from.

***WarHorse47*** · February 23rd, 2019, 06:08

Notice how this discussion has gone sideways... All this conversation about building a new computer because one developer has decided to no longer develop or support products for FSXA.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that all the time, effort and money is worth it just because of one developer's decision. I barely have time to enjoy the hobby as it is, much less to upgrade my entire system. Sorry, guys.

Thanks for all the responses, but I think its time to move on..

***wombat666*** · February 23rd, 2019, 06:51

Originally Posted by WarHorse47

Notice how this discussion has gone sideways... All this conversation about building a new computer because one developer has decided to no longer develop or support products for FSXA.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that all the time, effort and money is worth it just because of one developer's decision. I barely have time to enjoy the hobby as it is, much less to upgrade my entire system. Sorry, guys.

Thanks for all the responses, but I think its time to move on..

Agree with get back OT but here's a thought........only one developer appears to have taken this decision so far, but perhaps the 'First of Many'?

**b52bob** · February 23rd, 2019, 07:35

I think you are forgetting you can plug in your old hard drive and not go through any setting hassles. Believe me, the advance performance would be well worth it.

i remember very well when FSX was released and very few people could run it. It took a super computer to get anything but a slide show. It took me a year before I upgraded. Time marches on and FSX can Run well on a “mid” spec computer.

***blanston12*** · February 23rd, 2019, 08:13

I Certainly think more developers will do this. As others have already said, up until 4.4 developers could make there FSX models and do a simple convert to 64 bit and it would work, or make it for 64 bit and then 'simplify' there model to work in FSX. As new features like PBR become more accepted and even demanded by customers its not just a matter of converting from one to the other, now you have to re-implement features using completely different methods.

As you can see from many of the comments for a large percentage who are saying with FSX the reason is financial, they don't want to spend the money on the new hardware and/or software to run the latest SIM. So if your a developer and your creating something new, of course your going to make sure its P3D compatible before you do FSX, as you can see from the chart YoYo posted P3D users now out number FSX uses and you know there willing to spend money on new products.

So developers are always going to ask themselves if its worth making the product FSX compatible and as the FSX base continues to shrink the answer is more like no to FSX than yes.

**Josh Patterson** · February 23rd, 2019, 10:34

Originally Posted by dggoofy

Nop... finished... end... stop. Even the very soon T38C will be released for P3D 4.4 only...

Well, looks like I'll have to get a new machine to run P3D and maybe DCS as well as admittedly they both look marvelous, and I really want both Milviz's Thud and Razbam's Mig-19. I can run both machines through my TV so I'm not REALLY losing anything as FSX or P3D would be available depending on what I feel like flying. I just can't cut the strings on FSX though because of the investment in add ons (I could buy a nice used car, or an engine for my RX-8) over 5 or 6 years and it does still work well enough for me.

**dhazelgrove** · February 23rd, 2019, 11:29

Originally Posted by wombat666

Agree with get back OT but here's a thought........only one developer appears to have taken this decision so far, but perhaps the 'First of Many'?

That's the truth.

There's at least one other developer already moved to P4D - namely Simworks Studios. Their T-37 Tweet is P4D-only.

Dave

**gman5250** · February 23rd, 2019, 18:16

I'm thinking it may be beneficial to launch a thread covering the challenges and benefits of moving towards 64bit. The 32bit platform will eventually be abandoned entirely by manufacturers and developers as well. From what I have read on this post, it seems a comprehensive look at costs and the real learning curve could relieve some of the anxiety in this area.

I'd be willing to kick it off if there is interest.

**mike_cyul** · February 23rd, 2019, 21:43

Originally Posted by wombat666

Agree with get back OT but here's a thought........only one developer appears to have taken this decision so far, but perhaps the 'First of Many'?

Flight Replicas sales are almost equally divided between FSX and P3D, with no trends one way or the other so far. And so, no intention of cutting anything off.

My off-the-shelf-but-higher-end computer handles FSX and P3Dv4, both with ORBX full sceneries, without any problems. (That is, until I installed the new True Earth Great Britain South in P3Dv4, and now have had to move sliders left to cope....)

**Catboat** · February 24th, 2019, 00:59

Thanks Mike,
It,s heartening to know that developers like yourself will be supporting FSX for the immediate future. I have no doubt that eventually I will have to upgrade and invest in P3D, but for economic and other reasons, I will be staying with FSX for as long as possible. It is obvious that our hobby has enthusiasts from many many backgrounds, which is one of the things that makes it so enthralling. It is an education to read these forums, and learn from so many about the techniques and complexities of Flight Simming. As I have stated in some of my previous forum posts, I am a computer Neanderthal, so moving outside my comfort zone, is a major effort!! However, technology marches on, and I'll have to move with it-however a question, P3D or X-Plane seems to be the current way to go, but I noticed from a previous post that at least one developer is now producing for P4 only. Does that mean the P3 users will eventually be finding they will have to further upgrade? There still seems to be plenty of FS9 and prior enthusiasts out there, who are still receiving some support. Therefore there seems to still be a viable market out there for developers both freeware and payware for the foreseeable future. I stand to be corrected, but not so long ago I believe I saw a comment by freeware developer (par excellence) Milton Shupe, that he does not have P3D, but FS9 and FSX only.