Early Boeing B17D Flying Fortress for Fs9

[Mick]

Hi Mick,
The RAF standard for the time included underwing marks.
If that's a pre delivery shot, then they would be there,
would help if there was a location and better shot of serial number.
Ttfn
Pete

Thanks Pete.

I found one answer. I went to upload the photo I mentioned where the undersides show but are deeply shadowed, and I couldn't find it. I apparently deleted it when I finished (?) the paint job. So I went looking for it again and stumbled upon another shot that shows the undersides clearly and there are no roundels. It might even be a better copy of the photo I had before.

Anyway, the serial is AM528 and I suspect that the several on the Interweb of this same plane are pre-delivery publicity shots. Weren't the RAF's planes painted in RAF camo before delivery?

I also found this side shot that makes the rudder look even more like the red centers of the roundels. I don't suppose the RAF specified red rudders, but if Boeing dressed up a production B-17C in RAF marks for publicity shots, the easiest way to disguise the USAAF rudder stripes would be to cover the white stripes in red. But that's a guess, and a fairly wild one at that, so I still welcome anyone's comments about what the rudder color might have been.

[Shessi]

Hi Mick/Pete,
Having been looking at the D for months, it's a minefield of pics / info and mistakes!

As you've found Pete, the RAF B17s are C models not D, the only real difference is that the D had cooling gills on the engine nacelles, the C didn't, the rest is armour/armament and internal equipment. So when painting, just paint gills for the D and no gills for the C model, simple!

The pics of AM528 is a C model, firstly no paint underside and then a deep blue, see pics below. This ac was used as a promo ac for war bonds around the US, and Brit PR to help us get support in the States for the war effort . I don't know what colour the rudder is but I like your theory gents that it may be all red, and may be to cover up other colours.

I was going to do an RAF Coastal Command tex, if you look at the top of the pic with the RAF B17s in colour on you'll see there was the green/brown camo with a deep PR blue underneath, grey/green with the same, and grey/green with white (Coastal Command), and a trial for night of grey/green with black, be good to have a few of those for a change.

Cheers Shessi

[SSI01]

You've tumbled to something I was going to mention, which is that if you wanted to pursue the RAF's paint schemes for this aircraft you've got a number of interesting ones to consider.

Also, if anyone's ever seen the film "Air Force," there's always the "Mary Ann."

[mav]

Cheers guys!

Well many thanks to the defunct FDG2 team coz it wouldn't be here without them..and thanks to Jamie (JDT) who had the GMAX source files buried deep in a dusty HDD...

Hi Mav, good to see you about


Cheers

Shessi

Yeh.... still here


Cheers mav

[Motormouse]

Hi Mick/Pete,
Having been looking at the D for months, it's a minefield of pics / info and mistakes!

As you've found Pete, the RAF B17s are C models not D, the only real difference is that the D had cooling gills on the engine nacelles, the C didn't, the rest is armour/armament and internal equipment. So when painting, just paint gills for the D and no gills for the C model, simple!

The pics of AM528 is a C model, firstly no paint underside and then a deep blue, see pics below. This ac was used as a promo ac for war bonds around the US, and Brit PR to help us get support in the States for the war effort . I don't know what colour the rudder is but I like your theory gents that it may be all red, and may be to cover up other colours.

I was going to do an RAF Coastal Command tex, if you look at the top of the pic with the RAF B17s in colour on you'll see there was the green/brown camo with a deep PR blue underneath, grey/green with the same, and grey/green with white (Coastal Command), and a trial for night of grey/green with black, be good to have a few of those for a change.

Cheers Shessi

That's sort of cleared up the case with its provenance as a demo bird, I came across one source that mentioned the serial applied, AM528 was incorrect as well.... same serial was applied to a later model supplied to RAF

Ttfn

Pete

[Mick]

Thanks Guys!


Much is now explained! I had the idea from the start that this was some sort of demo bird, mainly because I didn't think the RAF would accept a plane that wasn't properly camouflaged. The British were always fussier than the Americans about correct camo schemes.

What initially led me to doubt it was the absence of Mount Rainier in the background. Boeing publicity shots have traditionally had Mt. Rainier in the background for as long as there's been a Mt. Rainier. Or at least as long as there's been a Boeing. But if the mission was to travel the country to drum up support for the Brits, those pics could've been taken almost anywhere.

As for the apparently red rudder, maybe my guess that it was painted to cover the US Army rudder stripes might be right. Or maybe it was just to make the plane pretty. I think RAF roundels on silver are pretty enough to paint, but the rudder is a nice extra touch.

I know the main visible difference between the C and D models was the cowl flaps. But I read that all the Cs were brought up to D standards, so I think I won't bother to paint out the gills on my C skins.

[Mick]

I just up loaded a set of four skins, including the pseudo-RAF one discussed above. The others are a Materiel Division plane with the Wright Field arrowhead insignia, and planes from the 22nd and 42nd Bombardment Squadrons.

They look a lot alike, as Army planes tended to in those days, the differing mainly in their unit codes. I might've just done the Wrght Field one, but I expect to park the others as static scenery objects on the ramps at Hamilton and Hickam Fields in Golden Wings.

[HorusJ]

I just up loaded a set of four skins, including the pseudo-RAF one discussed above. The others are a Materiel Division plane with the Wright Field arrowhead insignia, and planes from the 22nd and 42nd Bombardment Squadrons.

Wow Mick,that was fast! Will be putting them too good use.

Joel

[Josh Patterson]

I'm looking for a fact and an opinion.

The fact: can someone confirm or refute my suspicion that this Fortress I wouldn't have had any roundels under the wings? The photo was probably taken in 1941. There is another photo that shows the wing bottoms and they seem to look bare, but dark shadow makes it impossible to really tell.

The opinion: does anyone agree with my interpretation that the rudder of this plane looks like it might be roundel red? Or does anyone actually know the color?

Man, the early B-17s are almost as pretty as the 307! (The tunnel gun gondola kinda spoils the clean lines though!) It looks so delicate with all the beef missing from the tail!

[Mick]

Man, the early B-17s are almost as pretty as the 307! (The tunnel gun gondola kinda spoils the clean lines though!) It looks so delicate with all the beef missing from the tail!

Well, it should. The 307 was a shark-fin B-17 with a passenger fuselage.

[Hurricane91]

[COLOR=#000080]I just up loaded a set of four skins, including the pseudo-RAF one discussed above. The others are a Materiel Division plane with the Wright Field arrowhead insignia, and planes from the 22nd and 42nd Bombardment Squadrons.

Mick, your B-17 skins are well researched, and a very nice addition to the model. Thank you.

[Mick]

Mick, your B-17 skins are well researched, and a very nice addition to the model. Thank you.

You're very welcome!

[Mick]

It wasn't just one plane dressed for a promo tour.

There was a whole ramp full of them! All the same!

Is it even possible that the RAF would accept a batch of un-camouflaged bombers like that?

[Mick]

Say Mark,

Just wonderin'...

Do you plan to revise the gun positions to make a B-17B?

I ask because the B models seem to have worn much more colorful unit markings than the C and D models. I found several very attractive B-model liveries while searching for Cs and Ds to paint.

If you don't plan a B, I might be compelled to paint up some skins in the vein of "This B-17D is dressed up as a B-17B of whatever unit..."

But if there's a B-model in the future I'll wait for it.

[Shessi]

Hi Mick,
Well why not, but not just yet...

By the looks of it a B is a C/D with the A gun blisters, so not too hard to convert...


So if you do any hold back and I'll get round to doing the B fairly-ish soon.

Cheers

Shessi

[Mick]

Hi Mick,
Well why not, but not just yet...
By the looks of it a B is a C/D with the A gun blisters, so not too hard to convert...
So if you do any hold back and I'll get round to doing the B fairly-ish soon.
Cheers
Shessi

Yep, the visible difference between the B and C were the 3D or flat gun positions, including a blister instead of the big dustbin belly position. As far as I recall those were the only external changes.

I will keep the pics I found on the web, and my printed modeling references are always at hand. As the thirties progressed, the Army went from wild colors on planes like the P-26 to plain silver with only unit codes. The B model came along during that transition, late enough to be natural metal but early enough to get some colorful markings like cowlings in squadron colors, squadron badges, formation leader stripes. Like how silver P-36s were colorful but silver P-39s and P-40s all looked alike except for unit codes. I can come up with at least three or four skins that have some color or some markings that wouldn't be on the later models.

[Hurricane91]

Yep, the visible difference between the B and C were the 3D or flat gun positions, including a blister instead of the big dustbin belly position. As far as I recall those were the only external changes.

One other external difference between the "B" and "C/D" Forts was that the observation blister in the cockpit area was offset to starboard.
As the B-17Bs were updated to C standards with flush waist positions and a dustbin ventral position, the observation blister was the only
obvious identifying feature. Live action shots in films such as I Wanted Wings and Air Force included some of these updated B-17Bs.

"Mary Ann" in Air Force.

[Mick]

Well, I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with wartime stuff camouflage, which I never thought attractive anyway, so I wasn't planning any wartime skins. But the mention of "Mary Ann" from the movie "Air Force" got me thinking.

"Air Force" was the very first war movie I ever saw, as well as my first aviation movie. I watched it on television with my father when I was just a little kid. I thought I might pull out my copy of the film and see just what "Mary Ann" looked like, since I haven't watched the film since childhood. I took a copy from one of the commercial-free movie channels some years ago but didn't watch it at te time, just put it in my video library.

Now we have a picture that shows us that "Mary Ann" had more than the standard markings and a name on the nose. I'll still have to check the movie to see what the rest of the plane looked like, but my motivation to do that has increased thanks to that still photo.

I'm having an extremely busy period time right now so it won't be today, but I'll pull out the movie when I can and see what I might see.

[Hurricane91]

"Air Force" was the very first war movie I ever saw, as well as my first aviation movie.

The Howard Hawks film Air Force is an exciting aviation film. When I first saw it in the early 1960s, I got my first glimpse of the B-17D. I too favor the colorful
and polished pre-war Fortresses, but the camouflaged Forts have a special interest too.

Now we have a picture that shows us that "Mary Ann" had more than the standard markings and a name on the nose. I'll still have to check the movie to see what the rest of the plane looked like, but my motivation to do that has increased thanks to that still photo.

Here are a few additional photos from Air Force. Have fun watching it again.



#10 "Mary Ann"


If you look closely under the belly of
the second aircraft, you can see the
"B" type ventral gun position of the
third airplane.


In the Philippines. Battle damage
repaired by the crew, "Mary Ann"
gets ready to fly again. Note the
absence of the #10.

[Shessi]

Good stuff, very interesting H.

Now that is a mix of types. Mary Ann 10 is a B17B; and 8 is a B17D, as it has cooling gills and ventral gondola; next to a B17C, no cooling gills but with ventral gondola...

The thrid pic has the title of NoDeicer2, so is this another pic of Mary Ann or NoDeicer2?

No worry Mick, as most of these ac were pre-(US)war, and so camo is not so common.

Cheers

Shessi

[ian elliot]

Couldn't resist, just had to try in FSX, other than a couple of minor gauge's missing from the VC, everything works fine out of the box, prop disks and glass look really good and i love the sound set

[mav]

#10 "Mary Ann"


If you look closely under the belly of
the second aircraft, you can see the
"B" type ventral gun position of the
third airplane.


In the Philippines. Battle damage
repaired by the crew, "Mary Ann"
gets ready to fly again. Note the
absence of the #10.

I thought you were gonna say if you look close enuff... you'll see its a boy plane lol.

Cheers mav

[Hurricane91]

Now that is a mix of types. Mary Ann 10 is a B17B; and 8 is a B17D, as it has cooling gills and ventral gondola; next to a B17C, no cooling gills but with ventral gondola...

My opinion is that the aircraft used in the 1943 film, reflect the rapid changes made to the B-17 design before the U.S. entered the war. When Air Force was filmed, these
aircraft were in second line duties or being phased out, so they could be spared for use in making the movie.

The thrid pic has the title of NoDeicer2, so is this another pic of Mary Ann or NoDeicer2?

It appears that different planes or special effects models were used to film some sequences. Most viewers probably never noticed the differences. I didn't until I researched these photos several years ago. Below is a photo of "Deicerboots".

[SSI01]

I had this bird up in FSX today for over 4 hours. Everything Ian Elliot says is accurate. I was particularly impressed by the props, they are the best I've seen in any FS9 bird I've ever tried to run in FSX, they look and run fine "right out of the box" with no tweaking or replacing. It also handles well in the air but IMO requires a little more "finessing" of the controls, particularly on approach and landing, than a standard "big tail' B-17. Part of the fun of handling this much-ignored predecessor of the famous E, F, and G models of the -17.

[Hurricane91]

I thought you were gonna say if you look close enuff... you'll see its a boy plane lol.

Cheers mav

That depends on whether it has deicers or not.