Saufley field in the late 50's and sixties

[FlyingsCool]

Hi,
I've been modeling NAAS Saufley Field as it was in the late '50's early 60's, at least as close as I can get it.

Does anyone have any info on what the radio frequencies for the station were back then? I have this from an old sectional, but I can't figure out what the frequencies are for (old format).



Cut off to the bottom left, you can see the ...EY RADIO is
NAVY SAUFLEY RADIO
227 NUN (and the morse code)

Basically says

85 (alt) L H (pattern) 62 (6200 Longest runway)
GCA (Radar Ground Control Approach) DF (Directional Finder)
275 126.18
142.74 293.8
121.5 141.12
132.3

I assume 121.5 is ground and 132.3 is the tower? What are the others? Which is ATIS (I assume they had that back then?)?
275 is DF? 126.18 ATIS?

How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).


I've got the scenery pretty well going, thanks to Jim Dhaenens' hangars and the RAF buildings library. Still looking for other buildings and pictures of the facility to build off of. I'm also working on Guy Diotte's T-34 static model to adapt it for multiple skins. I've got a bunch of period skins made for it, but I'm still trying to figure out how to get ModelconvertX to get it so I can put them all in one library. Looking for a T-28 Static model, too. Don't know if Tim's model is light enough for that.

I'm also looking for runway / taxi lighting information, and approach ils / vasi / papi information from back then when it was a training field. As I've said before, my dad was in flight training back in 1957, and I'm trying to recreate the field back then. Any photos of the T-34's from the mid to late 50's would be useful too. I've got his log book and bu no's of the planes he flew, but no idea what the side numbers of the planes were for the planes. Any photos of the field from pre-prison days would be really helpful. Thanks

Tom



From these photos and more









(Aww, how come my images aren't appearing in the message?)

[FlyingsCool]

Oh, and I got some great info on Naval airfield standards from this document that you can search for

100_series_source_gn_2-21-12.pdf

[Cees Donker]

Hi Tom,

Looking great!



Cees

[FlyingsCool]

Thanks

[srgalahad]

Hi,
I've been modeling NAAS Saufley Field as it was in the late '50's early 60's, at least as close as I can get it.

Does anyone have any info on what the radio frequencies for the station were back then? I have this from an old sectional, but I can't figure out what the frequencies are for (old format).



Cut off to the bottom left, you can see the ...EY RADIO is
NAVY SAUFLEY RADIO
227 NUN (and the morse code)

Basically says

85 (alt) L H (pattern) 62 (6200 Longest runway)
GCA (Radar Ground Control Approach) DF (Directional Finder)
275 126.18
142.74 293.8
121.5 141.12
132.3

I assume 121.5 is ground and 132.3 is the tower? What are the others? Which is ATIS (I assume they had that back then?)?
275 is DF? 126.18 ATIS?

121.5 is the universal emergency freq. (often called "Guard") and this likely indicated the tower would be able to communicate 2-way on it (some were receive-only).
275 & 293.8 are LF in the range of NDB's and Radio Range. Not sure what they would specifically represent in this case as the LF Range beacons are marked separately (like the NUN Range)
141.2 & 142.74 are not part of the current air-ground spectrum for voice comms, but they may have been something designated for mil use.
126.18 & 132.2 are possibly the tower freqs (or some local traffic position) -current usage tends to put towers in the range of 118 to 120.9 and ground from 116.1 to 121.9 and the 122.0-126.9 are mostly used for traffic advisories and/or FSS. 128.0-135.95 are now normally assigned to TRACONS or centers

No ATIS - that's more-or-less mid-70's tech.

How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).

DF in this case is not an aircraft system. It might have been on the tower freq. or a different discrete freq. if use was of significant number. Homing assistance is provided by the ATC unit via a receiver in the tower/radio shack with an adjustable antenna getting bearings on an aircraft's transmissions and giving suggested headings. The entry in the data indicated the service was available from this unit. The use of DF Homing came in before WWII and continued in remote locations in (mostly) arctic N. America until the1990's. It could develop into a long, separate discussion but basically, as technology improved, so did the accuracy (by the 80's the 'standard' for an overhead homing was about +/- 1/2 mile but good operators could cut that to +/- 1/8 nm)/ The idea was to get the pilot within sighting distance in bad weather and in some cases orient them with the runway.

Actually the radio beacons (eg. NUN and PNS etc.) are not NDB's but Radio Range transmitters. That's another long, separate discussion but was one of the first semi-precision approach and nav aids. Directional antennae created four "legs" as shown on the chart - what looks like ILS 'arrows'.

For GCA, see the thread : http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...GCA-for-C-47V3

I'm also looking for runway / taxi lighting information, and approach ils / vasi / papi information from back then when it was a training field. As I've said before, my dad was in flight training back in 1957, and I'm trying to recreate the field back then. Any photos of the T-34's from the mid to late 50's would be useful too. I've got his log book and bu no's of the planes he flew, but no idea what the side numbers of the planes were for the planes. Any photos of the field from pre-prison days would be really helpful. Thanks

Tom

An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.

[srgalahad]

A bit of digging started.
the 1945 Sectional http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/...m_7870776c.jpg
shows Saufley Tower freqs as 275 & 142.74 (not in the range that FSX recognizes)

[FlyingsCool]

121.5 is the universal emergency freq. (often called "Guard") and this likely indicated the tower would be able to communicate 2-way on it (some were receive-only).
275 & 293.8 are LF in the range of NDB's and Radio Range. Not sure what they would specifically represent in this case as the LF Range beacons are marked separately (like the NUN Range)
141.2 & 142.74 are not part of the current air-ground spectrum for voice comms, but they may have been something designated for mil use.
126.18 & 132.2 are possibly the tower freqs (or some local traffic position) -current usage tends to put towers in the range of 118 to 120.9 and ground from 116.1 to 121.9 and the 122.0-126.9 are mostly used for traffic advisories and/or FSS. 128.0-135.95 are now normally assigned to TRACONS or centers

No ATIS - that's more-or-less mid-70's tech.

How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).

For reference I found this site about military radio sets from the WWII era and their frequencies 126.18 and 142.74 being among them.

http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/2011-November/009252.html

I found this site http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/20...er/009252.html listing military frequencies of WWII era military radio sets 126.18 and 142.74 being among them

DF in this case is not an aircraft system. It might have been on the tower freq. or a different discrete freq. if use was of significant number. Homing assistance is provided by the ATC unit via a receiver in the tower/radio shack with an adjustable antenna getting bearings on an aircraft's transmissions and giving suggested headings. The entry in the data indicated the service was available from this unit. The use of DF Homing came in before WWII and continued in remote locations in (mostly) arctic N. America until the1990's. It could develop into a long, separate discussion but basically, as technology improved, so did the accuracy (by the 80's the 'standard' for an overhead homing was about +/- 1/2 mile but good operators could cut that to +/- 1/8 nm)/ The idea was to get the pilot within sighting distance in bad weather and in some cases orient them with the runway.

Actually the radio beacons (eg. NUN and PNS etc.) are not NDB's but Radio Range transmitters. That's another long, separate discussion but was one of the first semi-precision approach and nav aids. Directional antennae created four "legs" as shown on the chart - what looks like ILS 'arrows'.

For GCA, see the thread : http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...GCA-for-C-47V3



An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.

Thanks so much

Yes, I've done a bunch of digging looking at snippets of old sectionals from the '40's onward (collected from all over the lost airfields site), a box saying Tower with 275 and 142.74 underneath it.

For reference, at my home airport KASH Tower is 133.2, ground 121.8, and ATIS 125.1. And yes I do remember now that emergency is 121.5

[FlyingsCool]

I found this http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/20...er/009252.html about WWII era radio sets and their frequencies, 126.18 and 142.74 being among them.

Man, I do not like this forum software. It keeps erasing my posts, and why can't I have it put offsite images inline?

[FlyingsCool]

I misread the 293.8, it's actually 233.8, like the other Pensacola stations

[tgycgijoes]

I found this http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/20...er/009252.html about WWII era radio sets and their frequencies, 126.18 and 142.74 being among them.

Man, I do not like this forum software. It keeps erasing my posts, and why can't I have it put offsite images inline?

I had the same problem...Imgur is a good hosting site I am using now. It was a little tricky finding out what link to use to get the image to post but i got it figured out. PM me if you want to know how to do it. I also sent a PM to FlyingsCool and offered him help.

Just found this - check it out http://virtpilot.org/files/lib/book1174.pdf grab it for your library before it disappears like so many do.

When I get interested, I start hunting: http://www.vpnavy.com/vt1_aircraft.html VT-1 T34's at NAS Saufley Field in different schemes different years.

[Deacon211]

I’ve kind of stumbled on this thread. What a great project!

One thing I haven’t seen much info about is the presence or absence of an Optical Landing System (OLS) about the field or the presence of the (at one time) ubiquitous carrier landing area that was painted on many Navy/MC runways.

I went through Pensacola in the early ‘90s, though at the time Primary was flown out of NAS Whiting. As has been mentioned, PAPI/VASI wasn’t a thing at any naval airfield that I can recall. But most major naval airbases, at least by the ‘90s, had a carrier box and field “Meatball” on the left side of the runway, just before the short field gear.

At the time VT-10, the NFO training squadron, was still flying out of NAS Pensacola in T-34s, T-2Cs and, TA-4Js IIRC and the Blues were still based there, at least in the summer months. So, there was
still a routine need for a meatball at the field. I’m having a hard time remembering if any or most of the Outlying Landing Fields had a ball, but it was not uncommon to run FCLP out at a OLF both to enhance the small field experience (particularly at night to simulate flying over the dark sea) and also probably to prevent glomming up the pattern.

I don’t know how 1960s fields were configured. But some of those old Navy flying manuals were replete with old pictures of much fresher looking Buckeyes and Skyhawks landing abeam much more primitive OLSs located abeam the runway.

Dont know if that helps any. Good luck with the project!

[Mike71]

243.0 is the standard military guard frequency (UHF).

I went through Saufley in mid-1965 (T-34B). As I recall,the runways there and at outlying practice fields had PAMOLA boards (sp?) Three boards mounted horizontally perpendicular to the touchdown point on the left side of the runway. the two outside boards had black horizontal stripes at equal heights. The middle board was further down the runway, and its stripe was at a height so when all three lined up you were on a normal glideslope. The middle one would look high or low if not on glide slope. A poor man's mirror / FLOLS system. I turn 76 next month, so maybe my brain is a little rusty, but I can see these in my mind's eye.

Went to NAS Meridian to fly the T-2A in Oct 1965; field was virtually brand new, built on a swamp, but a great runway layout

An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.[/QUOTE]

[FlyingsCool]

243.0 is the standard military guard frequency (UHF).

I went through Saufley in mid-1965 (T-34B). As I recall,the runways there and at outlying practice fields had PAMOLA boards (sp?) Three boards mounted horizontally perpendicular to the touchdown point on the left side of the runway. the two outside boards had black horizontal stripes at equal heights. The middle board was further down the runway, and its stripe was at a height so when all three lined up you were on a normal glideslope. The middle one would look high or low if not on glide slope. A poor man's mirror / FLOLS system. I turn 76 next month, so maybe my brain is a little rusty, but I can see these in my mind's eye.

Went to NAS Meridian to fly the T-2A in Oct 1965; field was virtually brand new, built on a swamp, but a great runway layout

An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.

Awesome info - Thanks!

[Mike71]

Awesome info - Thanks!

Looking at an old T-34B manual, I see that it had a VHF Comm system, and a VHF Nav/localizer system, no glideslope. It is important to note that primary students did not learn how to navigate by instruments, and only flew locally, day VFR over short distances to/from the local practice areas and outlying fields. They did know how to talk on the radio for basic needs.

Instructors on the other hand, often took these planes on cross country flights- at night time and some IFR conditions to stay night/IFR current. In my day, primary instructors were mostly multi-engine pilots who flew P-2Vs, P-5Ms and S-2s. They often got qualified in the C-54 / C-118s /C-131s at NAS Pensacola "mainside" to fly on weekends in something akin to a complex crew-coordinated airplane.

I found it strange that we had VHF comms in basic training - once I went to basic jet and beyond, all comms were military UHF, including FAA ATC ops. NAV was TACAN and UHF NDB. I never saw an ILS set, LF ADF etc except doing civilian flying on the side. I believe some non-jet Navy planes had some VHF capability though. (P-2, P-3, transports)

First Navy plane I flew with typical civil NAVCOMMS was doing the Navy acceptance trials on the C-12B (Beech Kingair 200) as a test pilot at Pax River in the late 70s as I recall.

[tgycgijoes]

Looking forward to you sharing when its complete. Great work! I think the research is a much fun as the creation when you find the "nugget" you spent hours searching for. The frequencies that are not in FSX may be akin to our TACAN we use in FSX/P3D adapted to the simulator not the real freq's equivilent which doesn't work in the sims.

AVSIM has downloads for TACAN replacements by Jim Stewart in the US, Australia, UK and Canada to make them work as an actual TACAN with DME bearings/ranges within the limitations of our sims. RFN Tacan is a great gauge and using AICarriers you can put NOLF Saufley with frequencies in the list. You can assign the frequencies in ADE175 when you create the field.