Saufley field in the late 50's and sixties
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Thread: Saufley field in the late 50's and sixties

  1. #1

    Saufley field in the late 50's and sixties

    Hi,
    I've been modeling NAAS Saufley Field as it was in the late '50's early 60's, at least as close as I can get it.

    Does anyone have any info on what the radio frequencies for the station were back then? I have this from an old sectional, but I can't figure out what the frequencies are for (old format).



    Cut off to the bottom left, you can see the ...EY RADIO is
    NAVY SAUFLEY RADIO
    227 NUN (and the morse code)

    Basically says

    85 (alt) L H (pattern) 62 (6200 Longest runway)
    GCA (Radar Ground Control Approach) DF (Directional Finder)
    275 126.18
    142.74 293.8
    121.5 141.12
    132.3

    I assume 121.5 is ground and 132.3 is the tower? What are the others? Which is ATIS (I assume they had that back then?)?
    275 is DF? 126.18 ATIS?

    How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).


    I've got the scenery pretty well going, thanks to Jim Dhaenens' hangars and the RAF buildings library. Still looking for other buildings and pictures of the facility to build off of. I'm also working on Guy Diotte's T-34 static model to adapt it for multiple skins. I've got a bunch of period skins made for it, but I'm still trying to figure out how to get ModelconvertX to get it so I can put them all in one library. Looking for a T-28 Static model, too. Don't know if Tim's model is light enough for that.

    I'm also looking for runway / taxi lighting information, and approach ils / vasi / papi information from back then when it was a training field. As I've said before, my dad was in flight training back in 1957, and I'm trying to recreate the field back then. Any photos of the T-34's from the mid to late 50's would be useful too. I've got his log book and bu no's of the planes he flew, but no idea what the side numbers of the planes were for the planes. Any photos of the field from pre-prison days would be really helpful. Thanks

    Tom



    From these photos and more









    (Aww, how come my images aren't appearing in the message?)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ScreenShot 20181229-001.jpg   Airfields_FL_Pensacola_NW_htm_m2bcf0155.jpg  

  2. #2
    Oh, and I got some great info on Naval airfield standards from this document that you can search for

    100_series_source_gn_2-21-12.pdf

  3. #3
    SOH-CM-2019 Cees Donker's Avatar
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    Hi Tom,

    Looking great!



    Cees

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Charter Member 2017 srgalahad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingsCool View Post
    Hi,
    I've been modeling NAAS Saufley Field as it was in the late '50's early 60's, at least as close as I can get it.

    Does anyone have any info on what the radio frequencies for the station were back then? I have this from an old sectional, but I can't figure out what the frequencies are for (old format).



    Cut off to the bottom left, you can see the ...EY RADIO is
    NAVY SAUFLEY RADIO
    227 NUN (and the morse code)

    Basically says

    85 (alt) L H (pattern) 62 (6200 Longest runway)
    GCA (Radar Ground Control Approach) DF (Directional Finder)
    275 126.18
    142.74 293.8
    121.5 141.12
    132.3

    I assume 121.5 is ground and 132.3 is the tower? What are the others? Which is ATIS (I assume they had that back then?)?
    275 is DF? 126.18 ATIS?
    121.5 is the universal emergency freq. (often called "Guard") and this likely indicated the tower would be able to communicate 2-way on it (some were receive-only).
    275 & 293.8 are LF in the range of NDB's and Radio Range. Not sure what they would specifically represent in this case as the LF Range beacons are marked separately (like the NUN Range)
    141.2 & 142.74 are not part of the current air-ground spectrum for voice comms, but they may have been something designated for mil use.
    126.18 & 132.2 are possibly the tower freqs (or some local traffic position) -current usage tends to put towers in the range of 118 to 120.9 and ground from 116.1 to 121.9 and the 122.0-126.9 are mostly used for traffic advisories and/or FSS. 128.0-135.95 are now normally assigned to TRACONS or centers

    No ATIS - that's more-or-less mid-70's tech.

    How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).

    DF in this case is not an aircraft system. It might have been on the tower freq. or a different discrete freq. if use was of significant number. Homing assistance is provided by the ATC unit via a receiver in the tower/radio shack with an adjustable antenna getting bearings on an aircraft's transmissions and giving suggested headings. The entry in the data indicated the service was available from this unit. The use of DF Homing came in before WWII and continued in remote locations in (mostly) arctic N. America until the1990's. It could develop into a long, separate discussion but basically, as technology improved, so did the accuracy (by the 80's the 'standard' for an overhead homing was about +/- 1/2 mile but good operators could cut that to +/- 1/8 nm)/ The idea was to get the pilot within sighting distance in bad weather and in some cases orient them with the runway.

    Actually the radio beacons (eg. NUN and PNS etc.) are not NDB's but Radio Range transmitters. That's another long, separate discussion but was one of the first semi-precision approach and nav aids. Directional antennae created four "legs" as shown on the chart - what looks like ILS 'arrows'.

    For GCA, see the thread : http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...GCA-for-C-47V3

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingsCool View Post
    I'm also looking for runway / taxi lighting information, and approach ils / vasi / papi information from back then when it was a training field. As I've said before, my dad was in flight training back in 1957, and I'm trying to recreate the field back then. Any photos of the T-34's from the mid to late 50's would be useful too. I've got his log book and bu no's of the planes he flew, but no idea what the side numbers of the planes were for the planes. Any photos of the field from pre-prison days would be really helpful. Thanks

    Tom
    An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.

    "To some the sky is the limit. To others it is home" anon.
    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” -Albert Einstein


  6. #6
    Charter Member 2017 srgalahad's Avatar
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    A bit of digging started.
    the 1945 Sectional http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/...m_7870776c.jpg
    shows Saufley Tower freqs as 275 & 142.74 (not in the range that FSX recognizes)

    "To some the sky is the limit. To others it is home" anon.
    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” -Albert Einstein


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by srgalahad View Post
    121.5 is the universal emergency freq. (often called "Guard") and this likely indicated the tower would be able to communicate 2-way on it (some were receive-only).
    275 & 293.8 are LF in the range of NDB's and Radio Range. Not sure what they would specifically represent in this case as the LF Range beacons are marked separately (like the NUN Range)
    141.2 & 142.74 are not part of the current air-ground spectrum for voice comms, but they may have been something designated for mil use.
    126.18 & 132.2 are possibly the tower freqs (or some local traffic position) -current usage tends to put towers in the range of 118 to 120.9 and ground from 116.1 to 121.9 and the 122.0-126.9 are mostly used for traffic advisories and/or FSS. 128.0-135.95 are now normally assigned to TRACONS or centers

    No ATIS - that's more-or-less mid-70's tech.

    How did GCA and DF work for approach? Where was the DF signal located? What is it? (I assume not ADF as PNS is clearly marked).

    For reference I found this site about military radio sets from the WWII era and their frequencies 126.18 and 142.74 being among them.

    http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/2011-November/009252.html

    I found this site http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/20...er/009252.html listing military frequencies of WWII era military radio sets 126.18 and 142.74 being among them

    DF in this case is not an aircraft system. It might have been on the tower freq. or a different discrete freq. if use was of significant number. Homing assistance is provided by the ATC unit via a receiver in the tower/radio shack with an adjustable antenna getting bearings on an aircraft's transmissions and giving suggested headings. The entry in the data indicated the service was available from this unit. The use of DF Homing came in before WWII and continued in remote locations in (mostly) arctic N. America until the1990's. It could develop into a long, separate discussion but basically, as technology improved, so did the accuracy (by the 80's the 'standard' for an overhead homing was about +/- 1/2 mile but good operators could cut that to +/- 1/8 nm)/ The idea was to get the pilot within sighting distance in bad weather and in some cases orient them with the runway.

    Actually the radio beacons (eg. NUN and PNS etc.) are not NDB's but Radio Range transmitters. That's another long, separate discussion but was one of the first semi-precision approach and nav aids. Directional antennae created four "legs" as shown on the chart - what looks like ILS 'arrows'.

    For GCA, see the thread : http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...GCA-for-C-47V3



    An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.
    Thanks so much

    Yes, I've done a bunch of digging looking at snippets of old sectionals from the '40's onward (collected from all over the lost airfields site), a box saying Tower with 275 and 142.74 underneath it.

    For reference, at my home airport KASH Tower is 133.2, ground 121.8, and ATIS 125.1. And yes I do remember now that emergency is 121.5

  8. #8
    I found this http://www.qth.net/pipermail/arc5/20...er/009252.html about WWII era radio sets and their frequencies, 126.18 and 142.74 being among them.

    Man, I do not like this forum software. It keeps erasing my posts, and why can't I have it put offsite images inline?

  9. #9
    I misread the 293.8, it's actually 233.8, like the other Pensacola stations

  10. #10
    243.0 is the standard military guard frequency (UHF).

    I went through Saufley in mid-1965 (T-34B). As I recall,the runways there and at outlying practice fields had PAMOLA boards (sp?) Three boards mounted horizontally perpendicular to the touchdown point on the left side of the runway. the two outside boards had black horizontal stripes at equal heights. The middle board was further down the runway, and its stripe was at a height so when all three lined up you were on a normal glideslope. The middle one would look high or low if not on glide slope. A poor man's mirror / FLOLS system. I turn 76 next month, so maybe my brain is a little rusty, but I can see these in my mind's eye.

    Went to NAS Meridian to fly the T-2A in Oct 1965; field was virtually brand new, built on a swamp, but a great runway layout

    An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.[/QUOTE]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike71 View Post
    243.0 is the standard military guard frequency (UHF).

    I went through Saufley in mid-1965 (T-34B). As I recall,the runways there and at outlying practice fields had PAMOLA boards (sp?) Three boards mounted horizontally perpendicular to the touchdown point on the left side of the runway. the two outside boards had black horizontal stripes at equal heights. The middle board was further down the runway, and its stripe was at a height so when all three lined up you were on a normal glideslope. The middle one would look high or low if not on glide slope. A poor man's mirror / FLOLS system. I turn 76 next month, so maybe my brain is a little rusty, but I can see these in my mind's eye.

    Went to NAS Meridian to fly the T-2A in Oct 1965; field was virtually brand new, built on a swamp, but a great runway layout

    An Auxilliary station like Saufley would likely have low-med runway lighting, possibly taxiway lights (probably same specs as today.) No VASI/PAPI (1970's and later) and no ILS - see the GCA discussion. There is probably a legend/key to the frequency assignments from that period - I'll do some digging.
    Awesome info - Thanks!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingsCool View Post
    Awesome info - Thanks!
    Looking at an old T-34B manual, I see that it had a VHF Comm system, and a VHF Nav/localizer system, no glideslope. It is important to note that primary students did not learn how to navigate by instruments, and only flew locally, day VFR over short distances to/from the local practice areas and outlying fields. They did know how to talk on the radio for basic needs.

    Instructors on the other hand, often took these planes on cross country flights- at night time and some IFR conditions to stay night/IFR current. In my day, primary instructors were mostly multi-engine pilots who flew P-2Vs, P-5Ms and S-2s. They often got qualified in the C-54 / C-118s /C-131s at NAS Pensacola "mainside" to fly on weekends in something akin to a complex crew-coordinated airplane.

    I found it strange that we had VHF comms in basic training - once I went to basic jet and beyond, all comms were military UHF, including FAA ATC ops. NAV was TACAN and UHF NDB. I never saw an ILS set, LF ADF etc except doing civilian flying on the side. I believe some non-jet Navy planes had some VHF capability though. (P-2, P-3, transports)

    First Navy plane I flew with typical civil NAVCOMMS was doing the Navy acceptance trials on the C-12B (Beech Kingair 200) as a test pilot at Pax River in the late 70s as I recall.

  13. #13

    really Interesting

    Looking forward to you sharing when its complete. Great work! I think the research is a much fun as the creation when you find the "nugget" you spent hours searching for. The frequencies that are not in FSX may be akin to our TACAN we use in FSX/P3D adapted to the simulator not the real freq's equivilent which doesn't work in the sims.

    AVSIM has downloads for TACAN replacements by Jim Stewart in the US, Australia, UK and Canada to make them work as an actual TACAN with DME bearings/ranges within the limitations of our sims. RFN Tacan is a great gauge and using AICarriers you can put NOLF Saufley with frequencies in the list. You can assign the frequencies in ADE175 when you create the field.

  14. #14

    Latest Images

    Still lots of work I eventually want to get to to make it more interesting and "real" (add trees and other details), but it's coming along.

    Thanks for all the help guys









    Well, I still can't get the image tags to do what I want for dropbox images (?), and I don't want to limit my picture size by uploading here (or clog your servers). Anyone know what I'm doing wrong here that doesn't allow the image to appear inline? I gotta say, I'm not a fan of this BB software. The first time I edited this response, it took even my text smilies, converted them to some image from, made them a link instead of the text I typed, and then said I couldn't post because I had too many images on the page :-/ . I super appreciate the forum and an awesome group we've got here. But, ouch.

    Well, at least I figured out how to make the image pop up and not force you to download it by changing from dl=1 to raw=1

  15. #15
    Simply outstanding project!! I was stationed at Saufley from 1990-93. I was a Advancement Exam Writer for the AME Rating (Aviation Structural Mechanic, Egress/Environmental Systems). Great place to be stationed. There is a minimum security prison on the base. The inmates take care of the grounds on the base. Janitorial type duties too. They are bused to NAS Pensacola, where they help maintain the golf course as well.

    When I was at Saufley, I would jog around the airfield (exactly 1.6 miles) every day at lunch. Those were the days. I couldn't jog around the block now!

    Thanks for your work Tom.

    This is a picture of the building I worked at on Saufley. Just captured it from Google Earth. It was formerly the barracks for student officers, going through training. NC

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Untitled.jpg  

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
    Simply outstanding project!! -----This is a picture of the building I worked at on Saufley. Just captured it from Google Earth. It was formerly the barracks for student officers, going through training. NC

    Right, Chief; the "BOQ" or Bachelor Officers' Quarters. I lived there for about two months in 1965. Not many students were married, most of us lived here, "messed" in the building with the arched facade, as I recall. We paid our living allowance to live there, and paid a monthly mess bill to eat - did not matter if you didn't eat all their meals, the price was the price.

  17. #17
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Really looking forward to this - looks outstanding.

    thanks,

    dl

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike71 View Post
    ...most of us lived here, "messed" in the building with the arched facade, as I recall....
    I believe that building still has the mess hall, and is where the prison inmates eat! NC

  19. #19

    ImgBB

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingsCool View Post
    Still lots of work I eventually want to get to to make it more interesting and "real" (add trees and other details), but it's coming along.

    Thanks for all the help guys









    Well, I still can't get the image tags to do what I want for dropbox images (?), and I don't want to limit my picture size by uploading here (or clog your servers). Anyone know what I'm doing wrong here that doesn't allow the image to appear inline? I gotta say, I'm not a fan of this BB software. The first time I edited this response, it took even my text smilies, converted them to some image from, made them a link instead of the text I typed, and then said I couldn't post because I had too many images on the page :-/ . I super appreciate the forum and an awesome group we've got here. But, ouch.

    Well, at least I figured out how to make the image pop up and not force you to download it by changing from dl=1 to raw=1
    New site I think. Says 100% free. Give this a try I am going to use it next post I do. https://imgbb.com/

  20. #20
    Anymore teasers? Looking forward to this one!
    Rob "Muckdog" Schreiber

  21. #21
    +1 bump Tease me!!
    Rob "Muckdog" Schreiber

  22. #22
    My ADHD has been distracting me.... Guess I should revisit this. I do need to figure out what all the objects in it are so I can put together a list of libraries. Are there any tools out there for teasing out a list of which files objects are coming from?

    I do know I've got about at least 4 sets of libraries containing the RAF Building objects. I really have got to get my library object situation under control. And then make sure I'm not using any Orbx objects. O_o

    And, then, hmmm, make the parked planes configurable from SNJ through T-34C.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
    Simply outstanding project!! I was stationed at Saufley from 1990-93. I was a Advancement Exam Writer for the AME Rating (Aviation Structural Mechanic, Egress/Environmental Systems). Great place to be stationed. There is a minimum security prison on the base. The inmates take care of the grounds on the base. Janitorial type duties too. They are bused to NAS Pensacola, where they help maintain the golf course as well.

    When I was at Saufley, I would jog around the airfield (exactly 1.6 miles) every day at lunch. Those were the days. I couldn't jog around the block now!

    Thanks for your work Tom.

    This is a picture of the building I worked at on Saufley. Just captured it from Google Earth. It was formerly the barracks for student officers, going through training. NC

    Where was the prison, and when did it come into being?

  24. #24

    SNJs or T34s

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingsCool View Post
    My ADHD has been distracting me.... Guess I should revisit this. I do need to figure out what all the objects in it are so I can put together a list of libraries. Are there any tools out there for teasing out a list of which files objects are coming from?

    I do know I've got about at least 4 sets of libraries containing the RAF Building objects. I really have got to get my library object situation under control. And then make sure I'm not using any Orbx objects. O_o

    And, then, hmmm, make the parked planes configurable from SNJ through T-34C.
    From what I have done and seen others do usually to improve fps but can serve the same purpose is to make your SNJs one bgl and the T34s a different bgl and the installer of the base/airfield can choose which one to add into the scenery folder. The other way and have them animated is to do Traffic files for both and just use one or the other traffic file. More complicated but way more interesting.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by tgycgijoes View Post
    From what I have done and seen others do usually to improve fps but can serve the same purpose is to make your SNJs one bgl and the T34s a different bgl and the installer of the base/airfield can choose which one to add into the scenery folder. The other way and have them animated is to do Traffic files for both and just use one or the other traffic file. More complicated but way more interesting.
    Yep, that was the idea. Not really realistic to have them available at the same time. Then you can choose your time period. I've also been asked to include that modern building that was built in the '60's out by the road. Traffic would be a new thing for me.

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