Aircraft formations.

[mongoose]

Having been sidtracted by Wiek's screenshots and effects such as exploding bombers, I have been looking again at large bomber formations for the USAAF such as the 8th. As such I have been studying their formations as here
Now it's very difficult to make a tight 12 aircraft formation as in the Jan 44 on wards 12 aircraft squadron formations in 4 staggered vics of 3's (see diagram in the url), so I was wondering where the aircraft formations are determined in the game or if it is hardwired.

[Daiwilletti]

my guess is a lot of work, trial and experimentation goes into getting realistic large formations. IIRC HouseHobbit went through "conniptions" working out how to stop AI aircraft tying themselves in knots in large formations. Maybe he has mentioned some solutions in his large formation mission packages from five or so years ago? Presumably they are here at SOH?

[mongoose]

I'm trying to get different results from his and my BC large formations but basically I'm after the CFS3 formation settings as in the actual game, and see if they can be tinkered with.

[Pat Pattle]

so I was wondering where the aircraft formations are determined in the game or if it is

Do you know that the spread factor can be altered in the MB or hand edited in the mission xml?
If you make them too tight the ai get a bit skitish though!

[mongoose]

It's the formation I want to alter. Yes they do like to collide but I can hopefully deal with that if I can change the built in formation types. Just need to to if one can access those and change them.

[gecko]

I experimented with large formations a while back. As far as I know there is no way of changing what the formations actually are. OBD has apparently been able to mess with the code somehow, but I doubt they'll be revealing that mystery any time soon.

There is also the problem of getting them to bomb targets in formation. I eventually gave up on that and just had the bombers overfly the target without bombing.

Most larger formations can be broken down into smaller ones. When I've created large formations, I usually did it as a formation of formations, with waypoints and altitudes carefully positioned to create the shape of the larger formation. The basic unit I used is a formation of three or six in shotai formation. Spacing as Clive mentioned is important to keep them from breaking up.

[mongoose]

It's a lot easier with BC and night bombing as they worked in a 'stream' since the main idea wasn't to have a protective box type formation as used by the USAAF daytime bombing. Now I am trying to make squadron formations as shown here by making 4 lots of 3. Still a compromise between being tight as they should be and CFS3's AI issues. In any case I have found it's easier to get approximate in the mb and then got to the xml and change the coordinates a little at a time; check in game; and change again if necessary. What I then would like to do is get a sort of formula or template of the difference in the coordinates for each group of 3 based on the coordinates of the lead group of 3 in the 12 aircraft squadron. That way I hope each wp will be easier to work out from that 1st or lead group of 3 aircraft. i'll get back on this if I make progress.

[gecko]

Sounds like a great idea James, and maybe some standard way for the formation to change course cohesively as well. Wide turns with lots of waypoints I imagine.

[mongoose]

Well yes re turns. I'm not mad about <90° turns anyway!

[wiekniera]

How bout this james?
you can translate it in cfs3 way maybe?

[Box]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -100, 0, 5
Position[03].Offset= -100, -200, 50
Position[04].Offset= 0, -200, 55


[Arrowhead]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -15, -50, 0
Position[03].Offset= -60, -200, 50
Position[04].Offset= 60, -200, 50


[Wedge]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -30, -10, 5
Position[03].Offset= 60, -20, 10
Position[04].Offset= 90, -30, 15


[SqTrail]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= 0, -300, 50
Position[03].Offset= 0, -600, 75
Position[04].Offset= 0, -900, 100


[SqLineAbrest]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset=-1000, 0, 0
Position[03].Offset= 1000, 0, 0
Position[04].Offset= 2000, 0, 0


[SqEchelonLeft]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -500, -300, 50
Position[03].Offset= -750, -600, 75
Position[04].Offset=-1000, -900, 100


[SqEchelonRight]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= 500, -300, 50
Position[03].Offset= 750, -600, 75
Position[04].Offset= 1000, -900, 100


[Hi-Lo Pairs]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -15, 15, 0
Position[03].Offset= -165, 165, 1000
Position[04].Offset= -180, 180, 1000


[USBomberSq]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= 0, -500, -50
Position[03].Offset= 0,-1000, -100
Position[04].Offset= 0,-1500, -150


[USBomberFl]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -50, -15, -5
Position[03].Offset= 200, -50, 50
Position[04].Offset= 250, -65, 45


// ----------------------------------


[WW2USBomberBG]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -180, -70, -70
Position[03].Offset= 100, -40, 70


[WW2USBomberSq]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -90, -40, -30


[WW2USBomberElm]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -30, -30, -10
Position[03].Offset= 30, -30, 10


[WW2USMedBomberSqn]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -120, -75, 0


[WW2USMedBomberFlt]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= 0, -60, 25
Position[03].Offset= 0, -120, 50


[WW2USMedBomberElm]
Position[01].Offset= 0, 0, 0
Position[02].Offset= -30, -20, 10
Position[03].Offset= 30, -20, 10

[mongoose]

Wiek, where did you get this? Is there a CFS3 file with this or is it entirely from you or another sim? Sounds the sort of file I have been looking for in the install with some extras!

[wiekniera]

Wiek, where did you get this? Is there a CFS3 file with this or is it entirely from you or another sim? Sounds the sort of file I have been looking for in the install with some extras!

It's from another sim james but their formula might be useful for you

[mongoose]

Only if I can get at the CFS3 formation coding file. At the moment I am trying to use the mission xml file and adjust coordinates, but so far the groups of 3 don't stay close together as they should .Well they crash the first time but not if you then refly but then they drift further back from the player. It could be I can only do this without the player formation.

[MajorMagee]

I seem to recall that if you increase the skill / experience factors for all the pilots they can hold formation without colliding as often.

[Daiwilletti]

I seem to recall that if you increase the skill / experience factors for all the pilots they can hold formation without colliding as often.

That makes good sense, MajorMagee. I would also boost relevant pilotconstants and pilotattributes parameters like vision, gtolerance.

[mongoose]

I might look into that.
Meanwhile I think messing around with vics of 3 aircraft to make a 12 ac squadron is more difficult than sort of playing around with some 6 ac shotai formations. Once again it works better without the player involved so I make a 3 ac vic to tuck in the middle, However, what ever formation I choose, the player ac always accelerate away from the ai formations even if the speeds are set the same and I do Ctrl Shft A immediately. Obviously I will have to actually fly the missions with the X55 and Track IR to synchronize the speeds as do manual trimming.
should be no problem will all AI ac.

[NachtPiloten]

When I make missions I always select ace or experience for a pilot never rookie. Seems to work well with tighter formations and the like, They even bomb too.....

[mongoose]

Yes I'm moving to that POV and also Major and Daiwilletti's suggestions. I still would like to know why the player's speed seems so different from the AI's even if they are set the same and autoppilot or 'x' is used immediately.

[FireStorm II]

Have you tried 'Diamond Formation' with no. 4 missing?

[mongoose]

I use that for 3 or 5 aircraft to make a 'v' formation, but I see what you are getting at as one could make several varieties of formations by taking out certain aircraft. What I don't know is if CFS3 would fill in the gaps. I assume to select particular ones to miss one has to go into the missions xml fille and delete some aircraft or other. I'll have to see if that works.