New repaint of Ito's F-82
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    Member gaucho_59's Avatar
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    New repaint of Ito's F-82

    This is just a WIP... trying to give Master Ito's creation a more believable metal finish...
    Comments welcome.

    G.


    https://www.flickr.com/photos/106421...posted-public/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails F-82 inflight.jpg  

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    SOH-CM-2024 Mick's Avatar
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    A gremlin seems to have snuck in and painted a second red band behind the blue band on the spinner. (See photo, attached.)

    I don't know if you've already discovered this, but for some incomprehensible reason, Ito, who doesn't use reflective textures, made the model both reflective and fully glossy. Even if he did use reflective textures, the speculative gloss would've made the intended silver parts look more like glossy gray. But there is a simple solution.

    When I painted the plane I found that it helped to remove all of the specular gloss from the model. That allowed the silver parts to look like metallic silver with the addition of an alpha channel.

    It helped that Ito made his skins look like a pretty fair rendition of silver, about as good as one might hope for without using reflective textures, then he provided a generic P-82 skin that serves as a nice starting point for repaints. All that's needed to make it a base F-82 skin is the addition of the red bars to the national insignia and the USAF markings on the wings. With a rather simple alpha channel (just a single shade of gray on the silver parts) his base textures take on a rather good looking metallic silver finish, his shading preventing that uniform gray look that might result from using single shades in both the main texture and the alpha channel.

    I was about to screech at the difficulty of getting reflective silver to look metallic until it dawned on me that there was specular gloss in the model that was mucking it up. One might wonder if he did that on purpose, considering his dislike of reflective textures. I strongly recommend that you get rid of that specular gloss before you try to do anything with metallic silver finishes.

    If you can't remove the gloss yourself (i.e., if your computer won't run "Shiny") feel free to grab a copy of the F-82 texture psck I released last week. It includes a de-glossed copy of the model that you're free to use.

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    Member gaucho_59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    A gremlin seems to have snuck in and painted a second red band behind the blue band on the spinner. (See photo, attached.)

    I don't know if you've already discovered this, but for some incomprehensible reason, Ito, who doesn't use reflective textures, made the model both reflective and fully glossy. Even if he did use reflective textures, the speculative gloss would've made the intended silver parts look more like glossy gray. But there is a simple solution.

    When I painted the plane I found that it helped to remove all of the specular gloss from the model. That allowed the silver parts to look like metallic silver with the addition of an alpha channel.

    It helped that Ito made his skins look like a pretty fair rendition of silver, about as good as one might hope for without using reflective textures, then he provided a generic P-82 skin that serves as a nice starting point for repaints. All that's needed to make it a base F-82 skin is the addition of the red bars to the national insignia and the USAF markings on the wings. With a rather simple alpha channel (just a single shade of gray on the silver parts) his base textures take on a rather good looking metallic silver finish, his shading preventing that uniform gray look that might result from using single shades in both the main texture and the alpha channel.

    I was about to screech at the difficulty of getting reflective silver to look metallic until it dawned on me that there was specular gloss in the model that was mucking it up. One might wonder if he did that on purpose, considering his dislike of reflective textures. I strongly recommend that you get rid of that specular gloss before you try to do anything with metallic silver finishes.

    If you can't remove the gloss yourself (i.e., if your computer won't run "Shiny") feel free to grab a copy of the F-82 texture psck I released last week. It includes a de-glossed copy of the model that you're free to use.

    What do you mean by "run shiny"?
    The red band needs to be painted like normal metal... I just didn't bother to do it yet... as I stated it is a WIP...
    what I have done is render the natural metal so far... done in layers in my original textures... the extant
    textures do not look much like the photos... and the panel lines etc. are very much exaggerated in thickness
    (the dark lines in terms of scale just do not correspond to the look of photos....)
    I think that alpha channel "shine" is too uniform... and make it look like chrome plating...
    in real life... light is not reflected uniformly ... but rather the subtle differences in shadings determine panel lines at
    a distance.
    I also scaled down the nose art to be like the photos... taken directly from the photos.
    G.

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    SOH-CM-2024 Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaucho_59 View Post
    What do you mean by "run shiny"?
    The red band needs to be painted like normal metal... I just didn't bother to do it yet... as I stated it is a WIP...
    what I have done is render the natural metal so far... done in layers in my original textures... the extant
    textures do not look much like the photos... and the panel lines etc. are very much exaggerated in thickness
    (the dark lines in terms of scale just do not correspond to the look of photos....)
    I think that alpha channel "shine" is too uniform... and make it look like chrome plating...
    in real life... light is not reflected uniformly ... but rather the subtle differences in shadings determine panel lines at
    a distance.
    I also scaled down the nose art to be like the photos... taken directly from the photos.
    G.
    Understood about the extra red band. Not so sure that your smaller nose art matches the photo though. Note how, on the photo, the top of the name almost touches the exhaust stacks, while the bottom almost reaches that little grill panel.

    By
    ruining the shine I mean that a specular gloss will interfere with reflective textures and make them look like glossy gray at worse, or like glossy silver paint at best, like the painted silver you'd see on a new car, not like the metallic shine of natural metal. I'll bet your silver looks better, more silver and less gray, on the textures than it does in that screen shot, and the difference is because of the inappropriate specular gloss in the model.

    You're right, of course, that a uniform alpha channel will make the skin look too uniform - IF the main texture file is also uniform. There should be a variability in the shade or the degree of reflectivity at various points on the plane. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, or a digital model. That variability can be accomplished by putting that variation in the alpha channel. However, in the case of the F-82 that somewhat tedious task is unnecessary. There's an easier way. Ito has given us a set of base textures that are so nicely shaded that they give an approximate visual impression of silver even without any help from an alpha channel or the reflective properties of the model. Because the shading and variation is in the main textures, we don't have to put that effect into the alpha channels. Both methods get the job done, and in the case of the F-82, Ito has done it for us in one way. (Had he not done that, it might be easier to do it with the alpha channel, but there's no need.)

    If you check out one of the the skins I put last week you'll see what I mean. The in the alpha channel the gray for the silver parts is uniform, but on the main textures it is not, and on the model in the sim the silver parts don't look uniform. That's because of how Ito painted the base textures, not because of anything I did with the alpha channel. Thank you, Ito-san.

    Some time ago someone released a skin for that same Alaska Air Command F-82H that I painted. That painter did use a uniform gray for the main textures, and to make those look their best you would have to put the variability into the alpha channel. I checked out that skin and it gave me the impression that I preferr
    ed to do it over myself on Ito's base textures. (I don't recall all the details because painted that skin (and Betty Jo) quite some while ago but didn't get around to putting them in the library until last week, when I packaged them with the 27th FEW and NACA skins that I just painted.) On his Twin Mustang, Ito has saved us a lot of trouble by the shading he put in his base textures.

    On the downside, by making the model reflective, Ito made it impossible to use transparency in the alpha channel to disappear those rockets under the wings, which most F-82s would never have carried. Alas, while we have the "Shiney" program to adjust the specular shine or make a model reflective, it will not remove reflectivity from a model that has it enabled.

    It's frustrating that Ito made it easy for us to paint more skins, but the Air Force didn't give us very many potential paint jobs. In the late 1940s the F-82 was the Air Force's primary long range fighter, in the period when aerial refueling hadn't been perfected and there was no such thing as a long range jet, and it was the primary night fighter. But there weren't many long range fighter units in those days (just one wing with three squadrons and a headquarters flight). There were more night fighter units, but their planes tended to look an awful lot alike - just overall glossy black with a squadron or wing insignia on the fin, not much to inspire skins for models. So the Twin Mustang has faded into history with little awareness of how important it was to the early Air Force.
    Last edited by Mick; September 22nd, 2018 at 06:32. Reason: grammar and typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    Understood about the extra red band. Not so sure that your smaller nose art matches the photo though. Note how, on the photo, the top of the name almost touches the exhaust stacks, while the bottom almost reaches that little grill panel.

    By
    ruining the shine I mean that a specular gloss will interfere with reflective textures and make them look like glossy gray at worse, or like glossy silver paint at best, like the painted silver you'd see on a new car, not like the metallic shine of natural metal. I'll bet your silver looks better, more silver and less gray, on the textures than it does in that screen shot, and the difference is because of the inappropriate specular gloss in the model.

    You're right, of course, that a uniform alpha channel will make the skin look too uniform - IF the main texture file is also uniform. There should be a variability in the shade or the degree of reflectivity at various points on the plane. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, or a digital model. That variability can be accomplished by putting that variation in the alpha channel. However, in the case of the F-82 that somewhat tedious task is unnecessary. There's an easier way. Ito has given us a set of base textures that are so nicely shaded that they give an approximate visual impression of silver even without any help from an alpha channel or the reflective properties of the model. Because the shading and variation is in the main textures, we don't have to put that effect into the alpha channels. Both methods get the job done, and in the case of the F-82, Ito has done it for us in one way. (Had he not done that, it might be easier to do it with the alpha channel, but there's no need.)

    If you check out one of the the skins I put last week you'll see what I mean. The in the alpha channel the gray for the silver parts is uniform, but on the main textures it is not, and on the model in the sim the silver parts don't look uniform. That's because of how Ito painted the base textures, not because of anything I did with the alpha channel. Thank you, Ito-san.

    Some time ago someone released a skin for that same Alaska Air Command F-82H that I painted. That painter did use a uniform gray for the main textures, and to make those look their best you would have to put the variability into the alpha channel. I checked out that skin and it gave me the impression that I preferr
    ed to do it over myself on Ito's base textures. (I don't recall all the details because painted that skin (and Betty Jo) quite some while ago but didn't get around to putting them in the library until last week, when I packaged them with the 27th FEW and NACA skins that I just painted.) On his Twin Mustang, Ito has saved us a lot of trouble by the shading he put in his base textures.

    On the downside, by making the model reflective, Ito made it impossible to use transparency in the alpha channel to disappear those rockets under the wings, which most F-82s would never have carried. Alas, while we have the "Shiney" program to adjust the specular shine or make a model reflective, it will not remove reflectivity from a model that has it enabled.

    It's frustrating that Ito made it easy for us to paint more skins, but the Air Force didn't give us very many potential paint jobs. In the late 1940s the F-82 was the Air Force's primary long range fighter, in the period when aerial refueling hadn't been perfected and there was no such thing as a long range jet, and it was the primary night fighter. But there weren't many long range fighter units in those days (just one wing with three squadrons and a headquarters flight). There were more night fighter units, but their planes tended to look an awful lot alike - just overall glossy black with a squadron or wing insignia on the fin, not much to inspire skins for models. So the Twin Mustang has faded into history with little awareness of how important it was to the early Air Force.
    Where do you get this "Shiney" program? I do need to reposition the nose art... but it is the one from the photo you attached... scaled down... btw... why a small gray ring on the white of the red-white-blue ... ?
    G.
    Last edited by gaucho_59; September 22nd, 2018 at 09:40. Reason: add

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    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    G,

    There are several utilities which can do the job.

    There in one in the library called shiny, done by "WuhWuzDah", which is an inter face over Ivan Hsu's mdl converter utilty called mdlc
    The original utility by Ivan Hsu, might be around somewhere as well.
    Our own Morton did a similar utility based on the same model converted as well.

    So far the good news. The bad news is that mdlc on which these utilities are based is not compatible with Windows versions above XP.......

    There is also Martin Wrights MDLmat, which should be able to do the same. However I don't know whether this is compatible with more recent windows versions and I don't have any experience with it. There is a tutorial by OBIO here in the library explaining the use of this program.

    Cheers,
    Huub

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    SOH-CM-2024 Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaucho_59 View Post
    Where do you get this "Shiney" program? I do need to reposition the nose art... but it is the one from the photo you attached... scaled down... btw... why a small gray ring on the white of the red-white-blue ... ?
    G.
    As Huub has already mentioned, Shiny is in the library here. At least it's supposed to be, though I can't find it. But I've never been able to find much of anything in the library here. Anyway, I've attached a copy here in the hope that I won't just get an error message that it's too big for an attachment. Edit: I see that it worked.

    Shiny doesn't work in any version of Windows since XP, so unless you have an old XP rig, or one with virtual XP (like my Win7Pro has) you won't be able to run it.

    I don't know much about MDLmat except that it does work in Win7. I haven't really scratched the surface of it; I've only used it to change the colors of untextured bits of models. I know it can do more but I don't know how to change anything like reflectivity or specular gloss with it, though I'll take Huub's word that it can be done. It might even have instructions about that.

    I know nothing about mdlc or Morton's program.

    Gaucho, I don't follow your question about a small gray ring on the white spinner ring. I don't see it in the photo of the real plane. I thought you meant in my repaint, but there's nothing like that in the texture and I don't see anything like that on the model in the sim either. So the question baffles me. Where do you see it?

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    Member gaucho_59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick View Post
    As Huub has already mentioned, Shiny is in the library here. At least it's supposed to be, though I can't find it. But I've never been able to find much of anything in the library here. Anyway, I've attached a copy here in the hope that I won't just get an error message that it's too big for an attachment. Edit: I see that it worked.

    Shiny doesn't work in any version of Windows since XP, so unless you have an old XP rig, or one with virtual XP (like my Win7Pro has) you won't be able to run it.

    I don't know much about MDLmat except that it does work in Win7. I haven't really scratched the surface of it; I've only used it to change the colors of untextured bits of models. I know it can do more but I don't know how to change anything like reflectivity or specular gloss with it, though I'll take Huub's word that it can be done. It might even have instructions about that.

    I know nothing about mdlc or Morton's program.

    Gaucho, I don't follow your question about a small gray ring on the white spinner ring. I don't see it in the photo of the real plane. I thought you meant in my repaint, but there's nothing like that in the texture and I don't see anything like that on the model in the sim either. So the question baffles me. Where do you see it?
    No, I noticed it in my repaint WIP... and can't figure out why... it is between the blue and white...
    False alarm... it does not show when the engine is stopped... apparently if is part of the propeller disk texture...

    G.
    Last edited by gaucho_59; September 22nd, 2018 at 13:22. Reason: add

  9. #9
    SOH-CM-2024 Mick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaucho_59 View Post
    No, I noticed it in my repaint WIP... and can't figure out why... it is between the blue and white...
    False alarm... it does not show when the engine is stopped... apparently if is part of the propeller disk texture...
    G.
    Ah, I see! I thought you meant in my repaint, or maybe the photo.

    I haven't looked for it with the engine running, so I still haven't spotted it.

    For a moment I wondered if it could it be a panel line in the model, the separation line between the base and the cap of the spinner, but it's not in the right place for that. The spinner would be split on the plane of the prop, and the white band is too far forward for that. Unless Ito put it in the wrong place. Like all of us, he's made the occasional mistake.

    Anyway, since it's not in the textures, it doesn't seem like we painters can do anything about it. If you're curious enough you could try a different prop texture and see if the line is still there. I don't see how it could not be though; I don't see how the spinning prop texture would affect the spinner. I think we're stuck with it.

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