New Gotha bombers series thread
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Thread: New Gotha bombers series thread

  1. #1

    Icon22 New Gotha bombers series thread

    Hello Folks,
    Thank you for your warm welcome, and I hope to be of use!

    After Ravennaīs request for uploading upgraded versions of some of the 2002/2006 Gotha Grossflugzeug models,
    and Kevinīs enthusiasm on the project, plus advice by NoDice on the fortunate possibility of adding crews with Dp,
    I think it is time for me to stop hijacking the Parabellum Machinegun 14 thread, and allow that to continue its rightfull way.

    So, I started the job by correcting the obvious flaws, first on the G.II, namely the lack of textures on the fin, rudder, tailplane,
    elevator, ailerons and the lateral cockpit bulge which contains (on the real plane) the control levers and the pilotīs elbow, perhaps.

    I also started testing some wing textures with ribbed shading, and did a simple mottled spray-job for the tail surfaces and ailerons.
    However, as textures are by no means my strong point, I would be happier if someone more experienced could take care of that,
    probably Ravenna, who is I blelieve already making strong headway in this direction.

    Another thing is the .air file. One FSAviator kindly made all the FD for the FS2002 versions, and possibly for CFS2 the banking axis
    is a bit stiff, so most probably the .air file would require someone with experience in CFS2 flight dynamics to take care of that, and
    also the Dp files, but I believe there are some knowledgeable people around who can do that!

    I have just installed FS2002 on my computer, so as to test the upgraded models in their visual aspect, but Iīm having the same
    graphic triangle-flashing problems as with FS98, which does not happen with CFS1, and I have to shut off hardware accelleration,
    which prevents a lot of the shading, mainly in the scenery, from being shown.

    This is due to incompatibility between the FS98/FS2002 .exe file with the graphics accellerator, but it isnīt so important because
    I can very well see the modelīs shadings on CFS1, and the main thing is that it also shows very clearly that there are none of the
    bleeds that CFS1 suffers from, which is very pleasing.

    At the moment I am testing my planned 3D structures for the ailerons, as all free components are used up, and twin-engined Biplanes
    are extremely component-hungry, and will report later.

    Anyway, this post is getting too long, so Iīd better stop!
    More, later!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  2. #2
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Hi Aleatorylamp,
    I don't know about "strong headway" on texturing ribbed wings; more like strong headwinds! I have had some great advice and assistance from UncleTgt, but compared to Uncle's my ribs are barbecued. That said I have a couple of Kaghol 3 repaints nearing completion for your (originally) FS2002 Gotha IV. I have finished the DP for the Gotha IV, including crew, although I am still undecided as to whether I should change the gunstation machine gun number from the generic .303 sound.
    The airfile I have came from Flightsim. I'll check the author but I think it was by Milton Schupe. It gives a very good simulation of the Gotha IV's nose up attitude. From what I have read pilots were exhausted after a round trip from Nieuwmunster to London.
    So, we have a DP and an airfile and the model now uses BMP textures, thanks to UncleTgt's resizing and correction of my naming error. Would it help if I send you a set of texture files? PM me your email address and I will send you whatever you think might be useful.
    Cheers,
    Ravenna

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Hello NoDice,
    Thanks for the links to the Freeflight Site! I need to get hold of CFS2 first.
    Thereīs no hurry, and Iīll keep it in mind.
    My using FS2002 to test the visual model has turned out to be more a pain than any use. It messes up the graphic shadings on my computer, but at least I was able to make certain that the CFS1 bleeds are abstent, which is a relief, and I expect that it will be fine in CFS2.

    Hello Ravenna:
    I believe I sent you my e-mail address in a PM last Friday. I can send it again one if something didnīt work or it got deleted.

    I have a time problem:
    For the moment, I can only be working on the WW1 bomber model file upgrades as required, and perhaps also the AF99 256x256x256 textures, if you like. Iīll gladly do the model fixes for the G.2, the G.4, the Kangaroo, and the DH.10, and also any others that you may like! No problem.

    However, I physically donīt have enough time right now to learn how to work the Bitmap textures, DP files and .air files that CFS2 uses, so Iīm afraid I must disappoint you for the time being. The thing is, that I have a couple of unfinished CFS1 projects currently running.


    At the moment Iīm finishing the first Gotha G.II model test-upgrade, which will be ready today or tomorrow.
    Iīve put in textured 3D ailerons and elevators, and also noticed that the lower wing-roots and oil sumps on the engines were un-textured too! Terrible! I was pretty sim-building-ignorant when I started out - it was my first model!!

    Anyway, I believe it will be the most practical to use the same names for the model file and textures, so that you can just overwrite the old ones without having to rename so many files.
    I know my Gmail e-mail rejects certain files including some simulator aircraft files, so the m most practical way is for me to post a WIP (work in progress) aircraft model (or even just the Model directory), here on the thread, or on the Parabellum thread, as you like.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  5. #5
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Got a bit ahead of myself there Aleatory. I would be grateful for your work on the Gothas. Here are some pics of the bomb configuration I have in my current DP.

  6. #6

    Gotha G.II upgraded W.I.P. model.

    Hello Ravenna,
    The 3 pairs of under-fuselage bombs seem to correspond to the G.IV.
    So one bomb rack is basically a rectangular frame with some kind of triangular hook at the front and at the back
    to hold the bomb. I wonder if you could show me a close-up picture?

    Iīve seen similar pictures of the G.IV with 6 under-fuselage racks in 3 pairs, starting from behind the Goerz bomb-sight.
    With a max. bomb load of 1100 lb, some smaller bombs could also be stored in the inner bomb-bay box behind the pilot.
    Iīm not sure about what kind of bombs though.

    Iīm wondering what to do with the G.II, as this one could possibly only have had the inner bomb bay.

    Iīve seen pictures bundling the G.II/III types into one, showing one pair of racks under the nose (because there was
    no Goerz
    bomb-sight yet), one single rack for a larger bomb behind that in the centre, and two double racks under the
    wing-root.
    This must have been a G.III, which could handle upto 1100 lb, so the centre rack then would hold a 550 lb biggy.

    The G.2 could only handle 660 lb of bombs, (6 x 110 lb) so the pictures Iīve seen of the G.II/III canīt really apply to the G.II !
    Perhaps there were no bomb-racks at all on the G.2. Iīve read that 6 x 110 lb bombs could carried in the internal bomb-bay,
    in some kind of net, and dropped by eye-balling on the part of the nose-gunner/bomber, who pulled a wire for each bomb.
    Also, it seems that the inboard bomb-bay had no bomb-doors. Possibly a trap-door was manually opened from inside.

    It must have been so cumbersome that as of the G.3, they had bomb racks. Anyway, also because of engine problems
    with the Mercedes DIV straight-eight, they only built ten G.IIīs after the initial prototype, and soon moved on to
    the G.III and the better G.IV.

    So, to have or not to have bomb racks on the G.II. That is the question...

    Iīm almost finished with the basic G.II upgrade. There are some panels around the front open gunner-well that if textured, bleed across the hole. Thatīs why they were only tan-coloured. However, as there are resources left over, Iīll make the concave-edged parts into 3 individual triangles each - I think that will allow textures to fit properly. The open cockpit design has an extremely high number of individual parts, which often cause compilation problems in AF99, but I believe 4 more parts can be handled.

    In a while Iīll post the aircraft here, and you can tell me how everything displays in CFS2!
    The fin is included with the rudder texture, so that texture will change its mapping. The elevator and ailerons, being flat plywood surfaces, have the same texture mapped manually.

    Anyway, weīll soon see!

    Update: OK, here is the first version as a WIP test model, attached to this post,
    to serve for testing texture mapping and shapes.

    Note that textures are still very simple, but the intention behind them is to make sure texture mapping is correct,
    so the textures themselves will not be used anyway, except for the ribbing, that may be copied over onto others...
    Flight dynamics are only FS98, so that and the Aircraft Config must be replaced with CFS2 ones, as well as panel
    and sounds, that are default FS98. Then, DP files for this model are as yet non-existent.
    So, do let me know how it goes!

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GothaGII-4.jpg   GothaGII-3.jpg  
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; September 17th, 2018 at 06:09.

  7. #7
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Hi Aleatorylamp,
    I can't take a good look at your G.II until later today as I am not at home. The pics look very promising. I will post a couple of close up shots this afternoon.
    The G.IV, from my reading, did have space for some small racks holding vertical bombs in the rear fuselage cavity. In practice they were not often used for a couple of reasons. First, the IV had a nasty nose up habit. It had the reputation of trying to climb and had to have forward pressure on the yoke to fly level at bombing altitude. Extra weight in the rear made for more pilot effort. Second, loads in the rear were problematic for the rear gunner, who were able to use their flexible Parabellum mount to fire down through the open floor at attacking aircraft if needed.
    The available WW1 bombs and racks were made by John Fortin (Polar Lion), who did a masterful job with British, French and German bombs and racks. They are available at the Freeflight site.
    I have seen photographs and diagrams of the G.IV with extra bombs on the wings, just out from the fuselage, but I have no information as to whether this was common practice. Have you had a look at the Wingnutwings model website? You will find a lot of stuff there on colours, markings and layout. Also some close up photos of the engine nacelles showing panels and vents.
    Cheers,
    Ravenna

  8. #8
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Here are some closer pics.

  9. #9
    Hello Ravenna,
    Wow! So can Dp put in all sorts of extra stuff.
    Thatīs really good. AF99 Parts Count for that would be prohibitively high!
    The Parabellum 14 details and the gunnerīs dangling legs do look great.

    Thanks for your e-mail. I havenīt got CFS2 yet, but as soon as I have
    more time on my hands Iīll try to get it, so I can give the .bmp textures
    and the Dp files a try.

    Absolutely no hurry on the feedback for the G.II - thereīs lotīs to do
    meanwhile anyway, and we mustīnt hurry our curry, as someone said once...

    Well, Iīll make 6 bomb racks, put them on the G.IV and post a WIP model.
    Letīs see how it goes.

    Interesting, the historical details you posted. It seems that as improvements were
    implemented on the construction of the Gothaīs, they got more and more tail-heavy.
    One more influencing factor had to do largely with the hurried manufacture of the units
    that were needed, stock of wood ran out and the new wood didnīt have time enough to dry.
    It seems that the original design was weight-balanced for drier wood.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  10. #10

    Triangular window bleeds, and bomb grapples.

    Triangular window bleeds, and the bomb grapples

    Hello Ravenna,
    Often textured flat parts with concavities along the border cause triangular fill-ins where the texture short-cuts to the next corner, covering part of the opening. It was happening in the gunner wells so I divided the panels into triangles.

    It wasnīt happening on the side windows at the front because of the obtuse angles I used to prevent this, but now it is.
    I donīt know if it is my computer, or CFS1, or not, and if it happens or not in CFS2.
    Thus, if and when you (or someone else, perhaps) have time, Iīd appreciate checking the windows on yesterdayīs Gotha G.II WIP test model for bleeds.

    Re. Bomb rack grapples.
    One of the previous screen shots shows a little of the grapple shape, but the closer-up ones donīt - the shots would have to be more slanted from the side and less from below, as the bombs block the view on the grapples.


    I saw a detailed photo of the grapples, and it seems to be a kind of "H", but with a slimmer "waist" at the front of the rack, holding the bomb at the "neck", as it were, and they didnīt show the rear ones.
    Photos of Wingnutwing models show simplified vertical half-moon supports.

    On your model screenshot, the front ones seem to look like an inverted "Y", and the back ones could perhaps be the same.
    The forward ones seem to slant backwards, and are fixed to a point ahead of each square, ...or not.

    I couldnīt find John Fortinīs ones on Freeflight site to have a look - maybe they are in a differently named file.

    At the moment, Iīm making the frames, and maybe Iīll make some vertical "H" (slim at the waist) grapples at each frame-end,
    for a test version.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  11. #11
    As you convert "slowly" to CFS2 you may be interested in these:


    WW1 weapons pack
    by John Fortin
    German, French and British bombs
    Easy Installation instructions
    click image to enlarge

    Download **** 1,120 times counter started 2-2-14

    And be sure to check out the pages:

    http://thefreeflightsite.com/WW1_CFS2.htm
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  12. #12
    Hello NoDice,
    OK, thanks - got them! On the screenshots enclosed in the weapons pack I can see some details.
    Smaller bombs seem to have racks with hooks into their ends, bigger ones have grapples "embracing" them.

    Granted, it is a bit complicated without having CFS2, and seems rather incongruent anyway, I admit,
    but there would be too much on my plate at the moment if I started now.

    Hello Ravenna:
    Gotha G.II: I had overlooked the alignmentof the nose-surface with the front gunner-well ring.
    It needed one extra triangle and thatīs done now.

    Re. the window glitch: Itīs showing up in CFS1 and FS2002 so presubably also in CFS2.
    Iīm fixing it right away with some extra triangles. Obviously the G.IV is in the same situation,
    and will be treated too. No problem!

    Tomorrow Iīll post the fixed G.II WIP and the new G.IV WIP with the racks and grapples.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  13. #13
    Aleatorylamp

    Email me direct and I will ship you a copy of CFS2 if you would like to have it.

    No charge of course

    dea14u@aol.com
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  14. #14

    G.II Material re-sent

    Hello NoDice, will do!

    Hello Ravenna:

    The bitmaps on the WIP are all wrong, because the re-conversion to .xaf after the re-work went somewhere else.
    I noticed too late that FS2002 (and probably CFS2) uses bitmaps if it finds them - I had only included them for reference
    purposes anyway - but that was confusing. Iīm terribly sorry for the inconvenience this must have caused.

    BTW, the window glitch isnīt repaired yet, but Iīm also enclosing the model directory just in case.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  15. #15
    Aleatorylamp

    To clarify,
    Sending meaning ( via postal mail ) not email.
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  16. #16
    Thanks, NoDice!
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  17. #17
    Hello Ravenna,
    I managed to fix the front side windows by adding two panels on each side under the glass. Both Gothas look fine now.

    Re: Six under-fuselage Bomb racks.
    Their frames are built as components, without hooks yet, (6x4=24 parts...), but canīt be put on (yet), because a AF99 compilation limit seems to have been reached, even though parts count is only at 125.8%.

    There are too many individual parts on the plane due to the hollowed-out cockpit, gunner-wells and corridor. The first thing I have to do now is to check all the components on the plane, to make sure their panels all align properly to share as many vertices as possible. That way the vertex count will (expectedly) go down, and the compilation limit will move to a higher parts count level and allow me to continue building.

    Letīs see how it progresses. It should work.
    More tomorrow!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  18. #18
    Hi, aleatorylamp

    You could make the bomb racks as stand alone units and mount them with the DP file.

    Regards,
    B24Guy

  19. #19
    Just a suggestion, but in CFS2, the bomb racks could be built as a weapons bgl and attached via the dp rather than made a part of the aircraft. I'm no expert on modeling, but Ivan Hsu (Archisoft) has a little program here that says it can be used to easily build weapons. You may be able to use it to make the racks.

    Edit - you beat me to it B24Guy

    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=49&id=6220


    Cheers,

    Captain Kurt
    ------------------------------------------------------
    "Fly, you fools!" Gandalf the Gray

  20. #20

    6 rack frames included on the G.IV model!!

    Hello Folks, Hello Captain Kurt, Hello B24 Guy!
    Yes, of course, I realize that it is quite impressive what DP can do for CFS2. As impressive as lively this forum is, indeed!

    Ravenna was saying that IF I were to manage include six bomb-racks in the model build itself, then some hard points could be saved in DP. That way some more elements could be added with DP, because of the high number of additioins needed: 3 Crew members with their bodies, limbs and heads, 2 Parabellum Machineguns, 6 under-fuselage Bombs... Then, IF possible, perhaps another two extra wing-root racks for 2 more bombs each.

    Anyway, for the moment, the good thing is that I managed to put in the bomb-racks (on the screenshot blueprints, in light blue), because it was possible to raise the modelīs compilation limit by just cleaning up the panels on the wing-components, and put the wing-wires in together with the wing-strut components. This lowered the individual parts number as well as the vertice count.

    Now I will try to put some grapples onto the rack-frames. We shall see how it goes!
    Just looking at the screenshot, maybe the forward frames would have to be moved to the front a little more, and the middle ones a little too.

    Cheers for now, and more tomorrow!
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Blueprint-Gotha-G4.jpg  

  21. #21
    Just so you know, you can have 21 hard points to attach weapons, guns and figures. If you make the bomb racks a single bgl it would only take one hard point. I guess you would have to count up the number of other items you are attaching to tell if you had that one dp hard point left.
    Cheers,

    Captain Kurt
    ------------------------------------------------------
    "Fly, you fools!" Gandalf the Gray

  22. #22
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Hi Aleatorylamp,
    A good idea to add bomb grapples into the model. The only problem that I can see is that bomb racks/ grapples under the nose would require bombs with a slightly "nose up" attitude, and John Fortin's WW1 bombs are in a horizontal plane. The other option for a Gotha IV is to put bomb racks under the wings just out from the fuselage. For the Gotha G.II I have no information regarding different bomb configurations, but the bomb load was much less than the G.IV so the existing DP would do with fewer or smaller bombs.
    The existing DP has places for 3 crew members, 2 Parabellum MGs, 6 bomb racks and 6 bombs. With extra places for one outer double rack under each wing and the 4 bombs to hang from them that bumps the total up to 23, so it would be possible. I seem to remember that the upper limit for DP hardpoints is 27, but I could be wrong on that score.
    BTW, your G.II looks very good. I still have to look at the format for the BMPs you sent me. For some reason the sim is recognising the AF files but not the BMPs, even though I ran the mdl file throughTEX512.
    Cheers,
    Ravenna

  23. #23
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Erk! Just saw your last post Captain Kurt. I'll have to revise my plans. with only 21 hardpoints the idea of racks in the model looks even better.
    Last edited by Ravenna; September 19th, 2018 at 18:58.

  24. #24
    Hello Ravenna, Hello Folks,
    I have an idea for the grapples, which Iīm going to try out later today. To save on parts, frames are built with 4 slanted oblongs so that they donīt need a horizontal AND a vertical part for each side, but only one per side.

    The grapples could be merged into the front and rear oblongs without increasing parts count, so that the shape includes a half-moon to hold the bomb. That way I could have enough free parts for the wing-root racks. First, for a pair of bombs on each side = 10bombs in total as perhaps 3 per side (12 bombs in total) would exceed DP capacity...

    Iīll post a WIP model as soon as they are on.

    I havenīt seen external bombs on any of the Gotha G.II photos, so they must only have used the internal bomb-bay.
    Moreover, I think I remember reading somewhere that this bay held 12 small bombs (12 x 55 lb = 660 lb) or 6 larger ones (6 x 110 lb = 660 lb). So I would leave the G.II without racks.

    As for the moment the bombs are all horizontal, for the moment Iīll leave the front frames where they are.
    I have to checkout the link Capt. Kurt sent, to see if I can handle building weapons with my existing setup meanwhile.
    If it doesnīt work, Iīll make myself some bomb template shapes to get the rack spacing and size right.

    The textures: I believe there could be a limitation here, at least for the moment. Perhaps the best idea is to go on the safe side, and only use .xaf textures which are applied via AF99. Any .bmp textures only seem to cause confusion, Iīm afraid.

    So, lead on, Mac Duff!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  25. #25
    SOH-CM-2019 Ravenna's Avatar
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    Aleatorylamp,
    I have BMP textures for two of your Gotha G.IV models. I tried the conversion for your recent G.II model but even after TEX512 and reformatting the BMPs they failed to show up in the sim. Perhaps it is a problem of size. I'll look at this tomorrow, right after my PC gets serviced (my keyboard went west and my monitor is giving me strange colours.)
    BTW, CFS2 can handle up to 26 hardpoints.

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