New Gotha bombers series thread

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Folks,
Thank you for your warm welcome, and I hope to be of use!

After Ravenna´s request for uploading upgraded versions of some of the 2002/2006 Gotha Grossflugzeug models,
and Kevin´s enthusiasm on the project, plus advice by NoDice on the fortunate possibility of adding crews with Dp,
I think it is time for me to stop hijacking the Parabellum Machinegun 14 thread, and allow that to continue its rightfull way.

So, I started the job by correcting the obvious flaws, first on the G.II, namely the lack of textures on the fin, rudder, tailplane,
elevator, ailerons and the lateral cockpit bulge which contains (on the real plane) the control levers and the pilot´s elbow, perhaps.

I also started testing some wing textures with ribbed shading, and did a simple mottled spray-job for the tail surfaces and ailerons.
However, as textures are by no means my strong point, I would be happier if someone more experienced could take care of that,
probably Ravenna, who is I blelieve already making strong headway in this direction.

Another thing is the .air file. One FSAviator kindly made all the FD for the FS2002 versions, and possibly for CFS2 the banking axis
is a bit stiff, so most probably the .air file would require someone with experience in CFS2 flight dynamics to take care of that, and
also the Dp files, but I believe there are some knowledgeable people around who can do that!

I have just installed FS2002 on my computer, so as to test the upgraded models in their visual aspect, but I´m having the same
graphic triangle-flashing problems as with FS98, which does not happen with CFS1, and I have to shut off hardware accelleration,
which prevents a lot of the shading, mainly in the scenery, from being shown.

This is due to incompatibility between the FS98/FS2002 .exe file with the graphics accellerator, but it isn´t so important because
I can very well see the model´s shadings on CFS1, and the main thing is that it also shows very clearly that there are none of the
bleeds that CFS1 suffers from, which is very pleasing.

At the moment I am testing my planned 3D structures for the ailerons, as all free components are used up, and twin-engined Biplanes
are extremely component-hungry, and will report later.

Anyway, this post is getting too long, so I´d better stop!
More, later!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Hi Aleatorylamp,
I don't know about "strong headway" on texturing ribbed wings; more like strong headwinds! I have had some great advice and assistance from UncleTgt, but compared to Uncle's my ribs are barbecued. That said I have a couple of Kaghol 3 repaints nearing completion for your (originally) FS2002 Gotha IV. I have finished the DP for the Gotha IV, including crew, although I am still undecided as to whether I should change the gunstation machine gun number from the generic .303 sound.
The airfile I have came from Flightsim. I'll check the author but I think it was by Milton Schupe. It gives a very good simulation of the Gotha IV's nose up attitude. From what I have read pilots were exhausted after a round trip from Nieuwmunster to London.
So, we have a DP and an airfile and the model now uses BMP textures, thanks to UncleTgt's resizing and correction of my naming error. Would it help if I send you a set of texture files? PM me your email address and I will send you whatever you think might be useful.
Cheers,
Ravenna

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Roxanne21,

Well, with that number of hard points there whould be no problem with populating the Gotha G.IV in a decent way.
Thanks again for your comments on the Caudron´s gunmount. The build went rather well.
I just uploaded the machine last night, and it´s doing very nicely!

Hello Ravenna,

I managed, quite surprisingly, to put in 3 pairs of bomb racks on the fuselage bottom, plus 1 more pair under each
inner-wing. That should make it possible to carry 10 bombs, plus a few smaller ones in the inner bomb-bay.

Attached, are some new upgrade test files for the G.II and G.IV:

Gotha G.II:
The front windows no longer suffer from bleeds across their curved edges, and the gunner ring has the proper light
grey colouring instead of tan, as can be seen on the 4th screenshot

Gotha G.IV:
This is the first test version, to experiment with 10 bomb racks: 6 under-fuselage ones, and 4 under-wing ones.
Surprisingly AF99 still compiles - maybe we can even get 3 under each inner-wing!! But for the moment, let´s see
if these are what you were wanting or expecting.
The first two screenshots show the bomb racks. The 3rd one gives a more general aspect.

Please note that the textures are simple ones - for the moment I am concentrating on texture-srpead and model-build,
not yet on texture quality.

As before, apart from the .Xaf textures that AF99 normally uses, I have included textures in 256-colour .bmp format,
naming them the same, but just adding an extra .bmp suffix.
So: GothaIV.7af is the normal texture, and GothaIV.7af.bmp is the bitmap version.

Do let me know of any other glitches or suggestions.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Hi Stephan,
Your renaming for the BMPs should read this way: GothaIV7.bmp, rather than GothaIV.7AF.bmp. I haven't been able to get your BMPs to show and my efforts were frustrated by a glitch with my PC yesterday, which should be solved today when my service guy arrives.
The bomb racks look very good, but we probably need to try fitting John Fortin's smaller German bombs to the nose racks. The tails of larger bombs will disappear into the fuselage.
I haven't tested this, but the Caleb Flerk site says that the upper limit for hardpoints is 26.

Cheers,
Michael

[Captain Kurt]

Hi Ravenna

It really is 24 hard points. We tested higher numbers during the Team Daedalus FW190F-8 fighter bomber development. Nothing will show up after 24 attachments.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello folks,
With Ravenna busily doing the DP and testing how the models show up under hardware accelleration in CFS2, modifications have progressed considerably.
Given the darker shading textures have in CFS2, wings had to be re-structured completely to avoid the strange shading effects in the wing components.
Then, because of the G.IV´s firing tunnel, there was a serious parts-count limitation, as parts-count for single parts as opposed to structure and component contained parts was considerably higher than that of the G.II.
For the G.IV, wing sections had to be added using SCASM, as the complete model wouldn´t compile in AF99.

The aircraft.cfg was also written in CFS2 style, and there are still some contact point issues, but it seems to work. The .air file also had to be adjusted, as planes imported from CFS1, even containing CFS engine and peopeller parameters, seem to develop about twice the performance than they should have.
Additionally, the Gotha G.IV´s Mercedes D.IVa high-compression engines have a totally different performance curve than normal engines.

These cannot be given full throttle at Sea Level, and are limited to about 225 instead of 267 Hp there, and as altitude is gained, throttle can be pushed forward until at the rated altitude of 4265 ft (1300 metres), the full 267 Hp are unleashed.

The gates that limited throttle lever travel were removed by the commander at certain altitudes, and but in the .air file it is done automatically with convenient "sculpting" of the Torque graph and Propeller Graph tables.

This art was discovered by Ivan of the CFS1 SOH forum, and I have been able to adapt the G.IV .air file parameters for CFS2 accordingly. It has also worked very well for the CFS2 Zeppelin Staaken RVI, both for the Mercedes engines as for the Maybach MbIVa engines, which incidentally are rated with 245 Hp at 2500 metres (8022 ft) - so although they have less power at low altitude, theitr ceiling is 2000 ft higher.

Anyway, while the Gothas are being finished with small details here and there, here are a couple of screenshots.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravena,
Thanks for your feedback by e-mail confirming that
a) the new TEX512-processed models display correctly in CFS2,
b) that the Bomb .bgl´s I sent don´t work in the sim, crashing it, and
c) that the old Dp files work with the new models, so for now, the old
bombs can be used, until I find a way of making some that work.

At the moment, after improving a few minor issues, I´ve just textured the
G.II´s exhausts, with the last texture that was free there, and I´m trying get
the same done for the G.IV, which is full-up on textures at present. We´ll see...

Another thing that crossed my mind, is a bomb-aimer´s panel, for the Goerz
bomb sight: Maybe a bitmap with twin lobes and a scale to be used in
downwards-looking map-view mode.

There is no hurry for this, as other things need straightening out first, but
offhand, I would imagine scales for 110 and 130 kph, (68 and 80 mph) at 3000
and 3500 metres (9800 and 11500 ft), but I haven´t done any research on the
characteristics of a typical Gotha G.IV bomb run, so I´m not sure.

Anyway, we´ll see!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
I´m afraid I drew in the fonts by hand, looking at pictures of the Gothas.

Apart from the different colour schemes and markings the models have, at this stage, it will be
interesting to see if the superior CFS2-type texture format can now be applied to the new models
sent, to substitute the simpler 256x256x256 bitmap textures on them at the moment.

If it all goes as expected, or hoped, the next thing I´ll do is make AF99 change the texture names,
so that after TEX512 processing, G.II and G.IV textures don´t end up named identically! I only realized
this after I´d processed both models and saw what had happened.

Good luck with the testing!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello All,
In my post #76, I came to the erroneous conclusion, that the G.I with a different rudder shape on one of the drawings I had, was a newer variant which never saw production.

In effect, it wasn´t a newer variant, but the original 1915 Friedl-Ursinus Grosskampfflugzeug (large battleplane) prototype (whose rudder did not see series production).

Although the original design was for a float-plane, the prototype presented to the military for evaluation was a land-plane built by Oskar Ursinus and Helmut Friedl, equipped with 2 x 100 Hp Merdeces D.I engines.

This was before Gothaer Waggonfabrik acquired the license to build 18 Gotha G.I units, plus one Gotha G.I Ursinus Wasserdoppeldecker (Water-biplane), which saw WWI service two years after it was originally designed, and was apparently based in Zeebrugge on the Belgian coast.

Thanks to Ravenna and Kdriver for indicating the sources of this corrected information!

I also dug out my FS2002 model of the Gotha G.I Ursinus Water-Biplane, after to queries by Ravenna, and then
thought that as the Gotha G.I Ursinus design had originated as a biplane on floats, it would be interesting to
be able to try one out in CFS2, correspondingly updated and upgraded.
So, in due course, the Gotha G.I UWD will also acquire a new life!


Incidentally, both the FS2002 Gotha G.I, and the G.I UWD flight dynamics were written by one FSAviator, and had very realistic and well-balanced flight behaviours. They readily convert directly into CFS2, once engine performance is sorted out, so they do fly very well indeed!!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Stephan, I just love the WWI German classifications for aircraft types. Wasserdoppeldecker and einsitzcommando are such visual classifications!

[No Dice]

Welcome to CFS2:

Check out these pages that may help you get started:

http://thefreeflightsite.com/Design.htm

and

http://thefreeflightsite.com/Utilities2.htm

and

http://thefreeflightsite.com/Tutorials.htm

[aleatorylamp]

Hello NoDice,
Thanks for the links to the Freeflight Site! I need to get hold of CFS2 first.
There´s no hurry, and I´ll keep it in mind.
My using FS2002 to test the visual model has turned out to be more a pain than any use. It messes up the graphic shadings on my computer, but at least I was able to make certain that the CFS1 bleeds are abstent, which is a relief, and I expect that it will be fine in CFS2.

Hello Ravenna:
I believe I sent you my e-mail address in a PM last Friday. I can send it again one if something didn´t work or it got deleted.

I have a time problem:
For the moment, I can only be working on the WW1 bomber model file upgrades as required, and perhaps also the AF99 256x256x256 textures, if you like. I´ll gladly do the model fixes for the G.2, the G.4, the Kangaroo, and the DH.10, and also any others that you may like! No problem.

However, I physically don´t have enough time right now to learn how to work the Bitmap textures, DP files and .air files that CFS2 uses, so I´m afraid I must disappoint you for the time being. The thing is, that I have a couple of unfinished CFS1 projects currently running.

At the moment I´m finishing the first Gotha G.II model test-upgrade, which will be ready today or tomorrow.
I´ve put in textured 3D ailerons and elevators, and also noticed that the lower wing-roots and oil sumps on the engines were un-textured too! Terrible! I was pretty sim-building-ignorant when I started out - it was my first model!!

Anyway, I believe it will be the most practical to use the same names for the model file and textures, so that you can just overwrite the old ones without having to rename so many files.
I know my Gmail e-mail rejects certain files including some simulator aircraft files, so the m most practical way is for me to post a WIP (work in progress) aircraft model (or even just the Model directory), here on the thread, or on the Parabellum thread, as you like.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Got a bit ahead of myself there Aleatory. I would be grateful for your work on the Gothas. Here are some pics of the bomb configuration I have in my current DP.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
The 3 pairs of under-fuselage bombs seem to correspond to the G.IV.
So one bomb rack is basically a rectangular frame with some kind of triangular hook at the front and at the back
to hold the bomb. I wonder if you could show me a close-up picture?

I´ve seen similar pictures of the G.IV with 6 under-fuselage racks in 3 pairs, starting from behind the Goerz bomb-sight.
With a max. bomb load of 1100 lb, some smaller bombs could also be stored in the inner bomb-bay box behind the pilot.
I´m not sure about what kind of bombs though.

I´m wondering what to do with the G.II, as this one could possibly only have had the inner bomb bay.

I´ve seen pictures bundling the G.II/III types into one, showing one pair of racks under the nose (because there was
no Goerz bomb-sight yet), one single rack for a larger bomb behind that in the centre, and two double racks under the
wing-root. This must have been a G.III, which could handle upto 1100 lb, so the centre rack then would hold a 550 lb biggy.

The G.2 could only handle 660 lb of bombs, (6 x 110 lb) so the pictures I´ve seen of the G.II/III can´t really apply to the G.II !
Perhaps there were no bomb-racks at all on the G.2. I´ve read that 6 x 110 lb bombs could carried in the internal bomb-bay,
in some kind of net, and dropped by eye-balling on the part of the nose-gunner/bomber, who pulled a wire for each bomb.
Also, it seems that the inboard bomb-bay had no bomb-doors. Possibly a trap-door was manually opened from inside.

It must have been so cumbersome that as of the G.3, they had bomb racks. Anyway, also because of engine problems
with the Mercedes DIV straight-eight, they only built ten G.II´s after the initial prototype, and soon moved on to
the G.III and the better G.IV.

So, to have or not to have bomb racks on the G.II. That is the question...

I´m almost finished with the basic G.II upgrade. There are some panels around the front open gunner-well that if textured, bleed across the hole. That´s why they were only tan-coloured. However, as there are resources left over, I´ll make the concave-edged parts into 3 individual triangles each - I think that will allow textures to fit properly. The open cockpit design has an extremely high number of individual parts, which often cause compilation problems in AF99, but I believe 4 more parts can be handled.

In a while I´ll post the aircraft here, and you can tell me how everything displays in CFS2!
The fin is included with the rudder texture, so that texture will change its mapping. The elevator and ailerons, being flat plywood surfaces, have the same texture mapped manually.

Anyway, we´ll soon see!

Update: OK, here is the first version as a WIP test model, attached to this post,
to serve for testing texture mapping and shapes.
Note that textures are still very simple, but the intention behind them is to make sure texture mapping is correct,
so the textures themselves will not be used anyway, except for the ribbing, that may be copied over onto others...
Flight dynamics are only FS98, so that and the Aircraft Config must be replaced with CFS2 ones, as well as panel
and sounds, that are default FS98. Then, DP files for this model are as yet non-existent.
So, do let me know how it goes!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Hi Aleatorylamp,
I can't take a good look at your G.II until later today as I am not at home. The pics look very promising. I will post a couple of close up shots this afternoon.
The G.IV, from my reading, did have space for some small racks holding vertical bombs in the rear fuselage cavity. In practice they were not often used for a couple of reasons. First, the IV had a nasty nose up habit. It had the reputation of trying to climb and had to have forward pressure on the yoke to fly level at bombing altitude. Extra weight in the rear made for more pilot effort. Second, loads in the rear were problematic for the rear gunner, who were able to use their flexible Parabellum mount to fire down through the open floor at attacking aircraft if needed.
The available WW1 bombs and racks were made by John Fortin (Polar Lion), who did a masterful job with British, French and German bombs and racks. They are available at the Freeflight site.
I have seen photographs and diagrams of the G.IV with extra bombs on the wings, just out from the fuselage, but I have no information as to whether this was common practice. Have you had a look at the Wingnutwings model website? You will find a lot of stuff there on colours, markings and layout. Also some close up photos of the engine nacelles showing panels and vents.
Cheers,
Ravenna

[Ravenna]

Here are some closer pics.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
Computers seem not to be an exact science after all. Whether this is intentional or not, is debatable...
They are more of an aleatory lamp, a bit like Pixar´s one, but perhaps not as vicious as HAL.

Did you know the letters IBM + 1 letter = HAL? I only found out about 10 years ago.
I believe Arthur C. Clarke was a bit disappointed when he found out.

By all means do send the textures so that I can have a look at them,
although I doubt I´ll be able to do anything with them for the moment.

The textures you sent me by e-mail 3 days ago are all 1024 x 512 x 16.7 million,
and have a different naming-scheme as far as I can see, but I can´t use them yet.

For the moment, I am completely out of my depth regarding this texture format, as well as the
use of TEX512, and will have to wait until I have CFS2 so that I can see how they work.

Presuably TEX512 converts textures and modifies the .mdl file to acept them. What I don´t understand
is why it worked for two of the Gothas some time ago and not for the present ones. Strange...

Anyway, we´ll get it in the end!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Aleatorylamp,

TEX512 converts the mdl file to accept BMP textures, then the AF textures have to be run through a program to generate BMP files (I used one by Martin Wright...I think it was/ is Convr8). I'll send you the conversion programs with the BMP reworked by UncleTgt.
As you say, we will get there in the end.

Cheers,
M

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
Thanks, glad you like the looks. I´ve just substituted the DH10A
screenshot because it had the green livery of the DH10, it should
be in brown - at least on the model.

Talking about colours. The Kangaroo model has some grey-blue pixels
on the light grey reflective metallic textures. I think my Photo-retouching
program confuses bright white, and puts in some crazy grey-blue in those
pixels when copying from another bitmap onto the default AF99 pallete,
so I must correct that.

Anyway, enjoy the sun, have a good time, and don´t hurry home!
Here it´s getting colder and colder, mostly because of the humidity.
It´s much better in the holidaymaker´s areas in the south, though,
as it´s drier.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
OK, Thanks! I didn´t know how the naming of bitmap textures worked.
The way I named them was only to make sure one could identify the correct bitmap belonging to the corresponding .xaf Texture.

The Rack Frames of course must still be adjusted, depending on the way the bombs are going to fit under them.
From what you comment, for a start, it seems that the supports on the ends of each frame have to go down further,
but I don´t know by how much - maybe twice? We´ll see once your computer is serviced...
Good luck with it! Hopefully it´s not something too serious.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Up and running again. A bit red faced when the technician restarted the PC (which I had previously tried) and the damn thing worked perfectly. At least now I have sound through all speakers.
Thanks Kurt. Good to know that this has been tried.
Aleatorylamp,
Would you like a copy of the texture set UncleTgt renamed and resized for me?

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Folks,
We will also be getting CFS2 versions with hollowed-out cockpits and gunnerwells, of the Blackburn Kangaroo R.T.1 Torpedo bomber, and the two DeHavilland DH10 Amiens tactical bombers - i.e. DH10 (Mark III) and DH10A (MarkIIIA), the latter having its engines directly mounted on the wing to reduce parasitic drag. There were 32 units, I believe, built by Mann, Egerton and Co. ov Coventry, I think it was.

Ravenna has already done the DP for the Kangaroo, which can be loaded with a torpedo, or two MKVI aerial depth charges, or one 500 lb bomb. I´m still getting headaches with contact points though, because unless loaded automatically on CFS2 startup, the airceaft is half underground, jumps up and commits suicide! I´m figuring out the height parameter ibelow the contact points in the .air file.

The two DeHavilland Amiens bombers are in progress too, and have the windows in the nose - which I only discovered were there a week ago! Terrible... Anyway, they display well, and now I´m fighting with the lazy mechanics because the engines take ages to start up, and they are always drunk.

So here are some screenshots of the three English "Grossflugzeuge", some eye-candy to enjoy while the planes are being completed!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ravenna]

Down here in sunny Melbourne, so the DPs for the Amiens will have to wait for me to take the road trip home (1000+ Kms). Looking good Stephan!

[aleatorylamp]

Yes, I can update information as to how things are progressing, but the models are not quite ready yet.

The intention is to supply a G.Va as well, with nose-gear and night textures, and it is in the making.

I had thought the G.V and G.Vb upgrades were ready, but during the G.Va texture trials, our texture expert
reported problems. The way I had mapped the G.V and G.Vb textures, caused texture-repetitions on the
planned G.Va because of a mid-fuselage symbol it has on the sides. This requires some texture re-arrangement.

Inspecting the problem, I also found some extra very odd texture-mapping deficiencies elsewhere, which I am fixing
first. I don´t want to knowingly upload upgrades with flaws that I know I can fix.

This kind of texture work is a bit heavy, so I have to do some other in-between things just for a change.
Also, I have had to see to some health issues, but nevertheless, the conveyor belts are full, and the factory is busy.

New update: My factory manager has just informed me that the G.V has had its hexagonal lozenge pattern re-applied, and the workers are at present checking everything while the glue is drying.
Then they will apply all the texture re-arrangement, re-mapping and corrections to the G.Vb which is waiting at the other end. Once this is done and checked, the G.Vb will be dispatched, and the engineers will convert the model into a new G.Va, installing the new nose-gear, eliminating the Stossfahrgestell, and new night textures will be applied.
Let´s see if they can do it!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ravenna,
Wow! So can Dp put in all sorts of extra stuff.
That´s really good. AF99 Parts Count for that would be prohibitively high!
The Parabellum 14 details and the gunner´s dangling legs do look great.

Thanks for your e-mail. I haven´t got CFS2 yet, but as soon as I have
more time on my hands I´ll try to get it, so I can give the .bmp textures
and the Dp files a try.

Absolutely no hurry on the feedback for the G.II - there´s lot´s to do
meanwhile anyway, and we must´nt hurry our curry, as someone said once...

Well, I´ll make 6 bomb racks, put them on the G.IV and post a WIP model.
Let´s see how it goes.

Interesting, the historical details you posted. It seems that as improvements were
implemented on the construction of the Gotha´s, they got more and more tail-heavy.
One more influencing factor had to do largely with the hurried manufacture of the units
that were needed, stock of wood ran out and the new wood didn´t have time enough to dry.
It seems that the original design was weight-balanced for drier wood.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp