Rate Limit vs rate statements

[Mixxer]

Does anybody have access to the SDK that had the information about the guns, weapons etc detailing things such as rate limits.
I would like to confirm that in a vehicles xdp a gunstation rate limit statement is how fast the gun trains onto its target vs in the guns xdp the rate statement which is basically rounds per minute

Thanks in advance

[gecko]

Correct, although the rate in the gun xdp is actually rounds per second.

[Mixxer]

Cheers mate, just going through everything correcting and adjusting some of the weird values in the stock game

[mongoose]

On the other hand in the aircraft xdp the ratelimit is set in the guns stations for trainable guns. For AI aircraft this corrects for 'sniper' effects. I forget who posted the points below as now in a note but interesting.

The sniper gunners are easily fixed. In the gunstations for the aircraft xdp, I tend to set the ratelimit for trainable guns at 12-15. IIRC that is the "rate" in degrees in which the gun pans in a second. It is not the rate at which the gun fires - that is set in the gun.xdp not the aircraft xdp. there is the occassional reference to "rate" in the gunstations of an aircraftxdp; AFAIK this is an error. For "wusses" that ratelimit number can be lower.

But also in the specific turret gun, the "timealive" in the gun xdp should closely match the range for the gun. Hence if the range is 700m and the gun's muzzle velocity is 750 m/s then a timealive of 1.0 seconds would be just about right.

Too long a timealive and the gunners open up too early/ or at least are effective too far out. The "Rate" for the machine gun is a bit more problematic, IIRC some are high to compensate for the CFS3 effect so I have no suggestions for that parameter.


Another trick to get rid of the sniper gunners is the "noise" parameter in the gun files. It has nothing to do with sound, it's the value for the bullet spread. Set it to something like 5 instead of the default 0.2 and the gunners will spray like always but they're not hitting anything except by pure luck.


Good catch Rene, I forgot to mention noise! If you look at the AvH gun xdps, the ones with _hand_held on them have a higher noise than the ones without. Eg. IIRC He-111 had the hand_held guns with a basic swivel. by the other token, I suspect the AvH guns in a _power_turret would have a lower noise.

[Mixxer]

That's excellent information Mongoose thanks for sharing, I'm currently going through all the guns starting with the vehicle guns and some of the entry's are full of errors, for example if you look at a 30cal_gun the range is set at 10 which I think you'd agree is a little on the short side, yet other weapons have settings that will let them fire at 3000 rounds per minute.

The other things are the vehicle gunstation entries they are all over the place some track targets quicker than a modern CIWS designed to shoot down incoming missiles, whilst others like some pintle mounted MGs have the left right movement limits set to numbers that make them unable to train left right or up down.

Once I have finished this I will do the same for the naval equipment and then lastly the aircraft

I remember doing all this back when I was originally flying and even though it took a lot of time the end result was a much more enjoyable sim.

Thanks once again for that info

[Daiwilletti]

The other things are the vehicle gunstation entries they are all over the place some track targets quicker than a modern CIWS designed to shoot down incoming missiles, whilst others like some pintle mounted MGs have the left right movement limits set to numbers that make them unable to train left right or up down.

Once I have finished this I will do the same for the naval equipment and then lastly the aircraft

I remember doing all this back when I was originally flying and even though it took a lot of time the end result was a much more enjoyable sim.

Thanks once again for that info

Hi Mixxer, if you look at the vehicle and ship xdps in my "stock upgrade" package you will find I have done most of it already. One of the things about the panning and elevation gunstation entries is that many of the vehicle models have not had the MGs modelled correctly. Therefore you will not be able to get them to work just by changing the xdp. For example, many of the MGs in the hull of tanks only elevate and depress, they do not pan. Many of the mobile artillery have only small panning values, so they are often inert on the frontline as there is no target directly in front of them. In the case of some mobile artillery, I have increased the panning range, even though it means the guns protrude through the vehicle's body when they track a target!

I uploaded some American and German vehicles here at SOH, but the main problem was that for some reason the front MGs tended to fire even when there is a friendly in front of them in the column, possibly an artefact of the MGs not being able to pan. Hence I now know why they removed ammunition entries for some of the MGs on the tanks. One of these days I should update those vehicle packages.

Anyway I hope the stuff I've done saves you some time,

D

[Mixxer]

Cheers mate I noticed some things were different when I compared with my clean reference install.

A few strange things if anybody is interested

One is the a_flakcar rail model, its actually a boxcar model the b_flakcar is the same.
Only the g_flakcar is using the correct model so i just deleted both the a and b folders and copied, renamed and hex edited to make new a and b flakcars then edited the gunstations so the guns will work correctly.

The a_sherman is another, the pintle mounted mg has all its limits set to 0 but its rate limit was set to 60 yet it cant move due to the other limits being 0
UpLimit="0" DownLimit="0" LeftLimit="0" RightLimit="0" RateLimit="60" and it had only 3 rounds of ammo

Added to that was the 30cal gun file which had its range set to 10m so it was just a decoration
Range="10" Rate="1" MuzzleVelocity="745" TimeAlive="1"

I changed the values to better represent a pintle mounted commanders gun
UpLimit="70" DownLimit="0" LeftLimit="170" RightLimit="170" RateLimit="20" and gave it 3000 rounds

Then modified the 30cal gun file to match the m1919a4 version it carried
Range="750" Rate="8" MuzzleVelocity="850" TimeAlive="1"

Now the little 30cal pintle mount works as it should (and yes I am aware it should be a 50cal M2 which I will fix later when Im sure the changes wont effect something else which was always the main problem when modifying the gun files)

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Mixxer,

The way to take the guesswork out of this is to look at the model using -m3dview. There is a gunstations field once you have the node box checked you can see the movement of each gun more easily. I assume that the first gun on the gunstations list (gungrp0) should also be the first gun in the gunstations list. Seems to work for me.

There were a number of vehicles where things were mixed up and the main gun would fire with the animation of the pintle gun moving! Stuff like that. Usually I set the ammo to zero if it was a MG where the traverse was not modelled, and as mentioned before the AI seemed to fire whenever an enemy was in range, resulting in the friendly vehicle immediately ahead in the column getting shot! IIRC some of the stock settings were like that with ammo set to zero - some sort of bodgy work-around to avoid self-inflicted damage?

[Mixxer]

Hi Daiwilletti
I would like to use it but for some reason the model viewer just crashes for me.
The game is on an USB3.0 external drive and my target statement is this
"F:\CFS3\Combat Flight Simulator Mod\cfs3.exe" -m3dview
It initially loads a blue screen and then a secondary small window with file and window tabs but when I click on either the error cfs3 stops working and crashes.
Any idea why?

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Mixxer,

sorry I'm not particularly technically literate on the vagaries of Windows. No doubt having a USB driver involved adds an extra layer of complexity. I have enough problems with stuff on the D drive! Next time I fire up the CFS3 'puter i will take a look at the pathways. IIRC there is info on the syntax for the pathway on the Knowledgebase Sticky. Will update as stuff comes to hand.

[Mixxer]

Hello mate, not to worry, Im going to transfer it to a internal hard drive and try it when I get a chance

[Daiwilletti]

Hello mate, not to worry, Im going to transfer it to a internal hard drive and try it when I get a chance

I managed a quick look with the m3d viewer and, like you, when I got the stock a_sherman model up it was grey (the texture did not load) and then it crashed. Unfortunately my step daughter has come to stay for a few days and is occupying the bedroom with my CFS3 computer in it!! so I have to wait a few days!! oh, the sacrifices we make for family . I need to have a quick look at the m3d file as at first blush the a_sherman xdp is fine. But my only m3d viewer is on the CFS3 'puter.

[gecko]

Sometimes m3d viewer crashes for me, and I found that temporarily uninstalling Ankor's shaders (just the D3D8.dll file) fixes the problem. I put it back in and re-run the config utility when I'm done.

[Mixxer]

Well it seems it doesn't like working from the ext drive, it fine from the int drive

[Daiwilletti]

One is the a_flakcar rail model, its actually a boxcar model the b_flakcar is the same.
Only the g_flakcar is using the correct model so i just deleted both the a and b folders and copied, renamed and hex edited to make new a and b flakcars then edited the gunstations so the guns will work correctly.

The a_sherman is another, the pintle mounted mg has all its limits set to 0 but its rate limit was set to 60 yet it cant move due to the other limits being 0
UpLimit="0" DownLimit="0" LeftLimit="0" RightLimit="0" RateLimit="60" and it had only 3 rounds of ammo

Added to that was the 30cal gun file which had its range set to 10m so it was just a decoration
Range="10" Rate="1" MuzzleVelocity="745" TimeAlive="1"

I changed the values to better represent a pintle mounted commanders gun
UpLimit="70" DownLimit="0" LeftLimit="170" RightLimit="170" RateLimit="20" and gave it 3000 rounds

Then modified the 30cal gun file to match the m1919a4 version it carried
Range="750" Rate="8" MuzzleVelocity="850" TimeAlive="1"

Now the little 30cal pintle mount works as it should (and yes I am aware it should be a 50cal M2 which I will fix later when Im sure the changes wont effect something else which was always the main problem when modifying the gun files)

hi Mixxer,

got the m3d viewer running thanks to Gecko's help re: d3d8.ini.

Comments on your above:

1. The reason for there being a flackcar included for USA and Britain even though none is specifically modelled, is so that the train follows the spawn file requirements. Otherwise you end up with a short train.

2. For the Sherman, yes the pintle gun is modelled and the hull MG is not modelled as a gunstation. So go for it - the AVSDK recommends traverse settings at 180 left and 180 right for full 360 degree coverage.

3. There are all sorts of problems for the stock 30 cal gun. The main one is it call for the C30 sound, and the C30 is actually referencing 30mm cannon sound. I suggest you make a new gun sound in the sound xml, like C30a or something, and simply copy over details from the C303 sound, unless you have extra 30cal gun sounds (which I have in some installs).

4. DO NOT alter the C30 sound as it is called by several of the 20-30mm gun xdps for which it is the appropriate sound.

HTH,

[Mixxer]

Cheers Daiwilletti.

The AVSDK you referenced is that the one thats hosted here, the one thing I cant seem to find among all my old stuff is the SDKs apart from some random pdf files with notes on them.

Do you know if that can that be installed without gmax to just get the documentation out of it?

I see entries in gunstations as Trainable="1" and Trainable="20" as was wondering what it meant

[Daiwilletti]

Cheers Daiwilletti.

The AVSDK you referenced is that the one thats hosted here, the one thing I cant seem to find among all my old stuff is the SDKs apart from some random pdf files with notes on them.

Do you know if that can that be installed without gmax to just get the documentation out of it?

I see entries in gunstations as Trainable="1" and Trainable="20" as was wondering what it meant

Yes it is here at SOH. You can "extract" the SDK and read the documents without installing Gmax. But it helps to have Word or software than can read a .doc file.

The trainable="20" is a TYPO which is pernicious, and hard to weed out! It crops up everywhere, but mostly in ships. I tried to weed it out of my Upgrade Package. Trainable should be only "0" or "1".

[Mixxer]

Thanks for the info mate