Revisited the FSDT F-18 Hornet recently and agree its special and in a class of its own - once you get used to the FCS it is an easy jet to fly. Very good trainer for flying jets onto carriers in FSX or P3D. Using vLSO I was able to get some - not all - decent trap sessions.
Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.
Originally Posted by PhantomTweak
Mr. Teeboy, if I may suggest a much better plane, if you want to fly Hornets, try the FSDT FSX BA F/A-18C v18.3. It outstrips any other plane out there, as far as Hornets go. I can provide a link to the download if you desire.
Pat☺
Have looked at the threads for this numerous times. I use P3Dv4 now for the most part so would it work atm? That .dll would be a no-go if its from FSX for instance. Shame, as I really want a legacy F-18. Love the VRS because its got such a lovely VC (and I spent many, many Ł's on buying it and Tacpack!) and great fps on my slightly elderly pc. If it is P3Dv4 compatible then a link would be very well received, thank you.
Pat, I will add that is your obviously enormous enthusiasm for naval aviation that got me interested in the first place, just took a while to pluck up the nuts to have a go and get everything set up. Thank you for that in particular
Nick
Edit - Ah, just found what I wanted on the FSDT forums - P3D v4 compatible (even if all the avionics aren't quite there yet!).
Last edited by teeboy; July 30th, 2018 at 03:26.
Highly recommended is the Etendart IV which you can dowload from royalefrenchnavy.restauravia.fr/
Look at Creations RFN.
You'll need the RFN Carrier Gauge too.
Take a look at the Foch and the Clemenceau and the Charles de Gaulle! All wonderfull stuff just for free!
Don't forget the Breguet Alizé!
Cees
Hi Pat, I fully agree, even if personally I'd suggest to stick with the version V 17.1.31 because , as I've reported months ago at FSDT forum, the V18.3 has a little bug about the HSI / CSEL, in other words, at least in FSX, it's impossibleOriginally Posted by PhantomTweak
to set a desired course and the HSI doesn't work correctly
Regards
The more you do, the less you dream
@Willy, I think you got a good start with the above suggestions, although it seems you are looking to do boat ops with WWII era aircraft? Pretty good selection of freeware CVs out, vLSO is free, RFN TACAN gauge is free....wait you just need some airframes! I'm a fast-mover boat flyer, but need to look back and start adding the classic straight decks and more planes with spinning things on the nose.
@PhantomTweak, long time user of the VRS and remember way back when "Sludge" re-vamped the stock Hornet, but the FCS logic between the 2 aircraft are pretty different animals. Fully support jimi's efforts given his limited time and resources for this pretty massive project. Do you have DCS? I could almost start another thread on the DCS Hornet when it comes to flying it.
Fly Navy/Army
USN SAR
DUSTOFF/ARMY PROPS
That's what 825 FAA Squadron Swordfish found on their return to Victorious after attacking and hitting Bismarck. It was pitch black, there was a rain squall and the deck was rising and falling 50 feet. Flying Stations do a nice Swordfish.Oh great! It's not enough that the things are moving about, now they're going up and down too!
Rats - why won't anything work properly first time?
You can find and download the Wolverine / Sable; place them on Lake Michigan and try landing Wildcats or Dauntlass's. If you want them and can't find them I have them archived along with freeware F4F's and SBD's. Technically it IS possible to use the vLSO for them though he doesn't have "paddles". I was so hoping that with the advent of new technology someone would create a WWII LSO. How COOL would that be? I think that VRS Enterprise CV6 HAD one but he was part of their carrier program. The LSO used paddles I believe all the way through 1960 Wikipedia says 1955 first use. (see below link)
The movie with Henry Fonda and Van Johnson "Yours, Mine and Ours" uses the USS Hornet and their project was the new FLOLS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_landing_system
That would be cool indeed!I was so hoping that with the advent of new technology someone would create a WWII LSO. How COOL would that be?
It's been suggested to Paddles, the vLSO author, but he doesn't want to tackle that little bit of software. He's come close to having vLSO as good as it will get, and the AI LSO's as grumpy and mean as they can get
He's doing as best he can, but making a guy stand there waving his arms is just beyond his abilities, I think. Not to mention his desires
I'm glad you got infected tooPat, I will add that is your obviously enormous enthusiasm for naval aviation that got me interested in the first place, just took a while to pluck up the nuts to have a go and get everything set up. Thank you for that in particular
Have fun all!
Pat
Fly Free, always!
Sgt of Marines
USMC, 10 years proud service.
Inactive now...
Haven't had much time to do the install yet. But I was wondering how does one get the aircraft to stop on the deck?
In FS9 I used an early version of carrier ops gauges that would work wherever the aircraft was. My AH Seafires still have those installed and when I try to use them in FSX, let's just say the results have not been encouraging (ripped the wings off on landing last night).
Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right.
No gauges needed.
So long as you have Acceletaration installed correctly, and tailhook and launch entries in the aircraft.cfg, then any aircraft can launch and recover on a moving carrier.
These settings can adjusted, and there’s enhancements to reduce the launch speed of slower aircraft to more realistic speeds versus faster ones, but I’d suggest getting the basics going first.
Bottom line, way less mucking about than in the old ARRCAB days, good as that was, before the onset of moving carriers.
There’s also a few (very few) 1950s USN straight deck Essex-class carriers, and a few more wwii era boats that will probably be where you want to operate from.
1. Approach carrier just outside of the pattern envelope because you can't fly for crap on your measly home computer and do 5000 things at the same time
2. Prop yourself up in the virtual seat until your virtual helmet touches the virtual canopy
3. Curse that you still can't see anything over the nose
4. Adjust heading to approach the centerline of the strip, not the center line of the ship
5. Add power to not fall out of the sky
6. Reduce power to actually keep descending
7. Ignore vLSO commands
8. Ignore mirror landing system cues
9. Constantly increase the volume of your internal screaming with decreasing distance to flightdeck
10. Panic and add 0.001% too much power because you're 0.0000001% too low and about to slam into the ship's stern
11. Overcorrect because you're too high now
12. Slam the thing onto the deck like the keg of beer on the table when retelling your flying heroics
13. MOST IMPORTANTLY: Slam the throttle levers forward just upon touchdown
14. Pray you've caught a wire - any wire will do
15. Curse that you're going over the deck and into the air again or that you've actually caught a wire and now look like a fool
16. Rinse, repeat and remember that the more often you try, the worse you will perform
Easy mode: FSXBA F/A-18C on any Enterprise/Nimitz class carrier.
Medium: RFN Étendard IV on the Foch.
Hard: F-4 on any of Her Majesty's Postage Stamps.
@ Bjoern
10. Panic and add 0.001% too much power because you're 0.0000001% too low and about to slam into the ship's stern
More than 1 time I have been too low and wound up in some squadron's ready-room with everyone staring at me!
Charlie Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and will eventually buy a new computer. Running a Chromebook for now!
FLOLS was a great improvement over the original mirror system, and operated on some very different principles. As best I recall, I made my first CQ (T-2A) and later, fleet traps between 1966 and 1969 using the mirror on old ESSEX 27C's. On JFK's first deployment in 1969 we had a FLOLS, which at the time did not have inertial "heave" (vertical hull CG motion) sensing, but was still a lot better than the mirror, especially at night.
I'd like to add that a lot of us take inertial systems capabilities with about as much admiration as we do a AAA battery these days, but their development has been astounding. Early A-6, and F-111 systems were very unreliable (failure rates), and Carrier SINS (Ship Inertial Nav System) was not great either. That can be a problem trying to get initial alignment info for early CV tactical airplanes. Theoretically, you had a SINS cable plugged into your plan after starting, and the cable fed accurate info to align your INS as the ship was moving through the water on a straight course. Due to frequent SINS problems, too often we had to align an A-6 using handwritten data on a chalkboard, held up by a Flight Deck crewman, who was constantly getting an update from the Navigator on the Bridge, which obviously was based on a good bit of DR.
The idea that a commercial airliner would routinely be equipped with 2 or 3 INS's and that they were all so reliable would have been laughed at by any of us back then, but - time marches on.
I am not to sure how much better the INS on our "boomer" subs was then.
Ummm...Use the tailhook? As a general rule, they stop planes nicely.But I was wondering how does one get the aircraft to stop on the deck?
For FSX with Acceleration, forget the gauges entirely. Remove them, comment them out, what ever, but turn them off. They conflict with the functioning of the Accel features in a bad way.In FS9 I used an early version of carrier ops gauges that would work wherever the aircraft was. My AH Seafires still have those installed and when I try to use them in FSX, let's just say the results have not been encouraging (ripped the wings off on landing last night).
If the plane's model isn't written for FSX, add the [Tailhook] and [Launchbar] sections to the aircraft.cfg yourself. Otherwise, iow if the plane's model IS written for FSX Accel, just add the [Tailhook]. You may, or may not, need to adjust the settings in it for certain conditions. A lot of devs don't set the [tailhook] section of the plane's model file correctly. They seem to get the launchbar settings right, but not the tailhook for some reason.
Just remember, if you add the two sections to the aircraft.cfg, they over-write the entries in the model file. That's why I usually don't worry about the launchbar settings. If the plane gets dragged off the end of the deck by the catapult, it works fine.
Trapping is an entirely different subject.
Aside from the wonderful "how-to" instructions written by Bjoern above (ahem...), the [tailhook] settings have major effects on how the plane traps. Each line affects a different aspect. For example,
tailhook_length=4 ;(feet)
Can determine, in combination with the two main gear contact point vertical settings, if the tailhook is positioned correctly, vertically, for the plane to grab the wire at the correct AOA. Too long, the plane can approach too flatly, and even then, the hook may skip the wires. Too short, and the plane will never grab a wire, which is very annoying!
cable_force_adjust= 0.59
Will determine just how hard the wire decelerates the plane. Too high, and the wings rip off, just for exampleToo low, and the plane will run off the end of the deck, and dangle by it's hook. Makes getting out of the plane to grab a slider in the Dirty-Shirt Wardroom very difficult.
I won't get started on the effects of the tailhook_position= line here. I could write an entire post about that alone. Let's just say that it's THE most critical of the three settings, and can have the greatest, or most detrimental, effects.
We spent a lot of time, and trial and error, getting the [tailhook] settings, in combination with the [Contact_points] section, of the FSX BA Hornet right, but it IS right. For that particular airplane.
If we presume a plane is set up properly for the recoveries aboard, then technique is most critical to making a decent recovery. Mainly, the correct speed and AOA of the plane, the correct weight of the plane for recovery aboard, the correct WOD, and so on. Whether or not you "flare" for recovering aboard the boat. DON'T. Navy plane do NOT flare for landing, boat or shore. Descend at about 7-800 FPM, making certain the AOA is correct for the plane's weight and speed, etc. All the way to the deck. Don't flare, slow the descent, any of that. There's a reason it's known as a "controlled crashed"...
I would respectfully suggest getting a copy of the plane's NATOPS, or whatever the Brits call it, and read the section on "how to" make a recovery aboard the ship. It's in there, and very informative. I can give you a link to the F/A-18's NATOPS, or the ones for the F-14, and T-45, as well, should you desire. As to the WWII prop jobs, I never looked, but Google may be your friend in this case.
I know for a certainty that the BA Hornet is designed to be as close to the NATOPS as possible. Thus, reading NATOPS will prove very useful. Same for Dino's planes. I can't speak to any others, although the Alpha-Blue Ciel Corsair seems very close to the instructions given for it that I can find.
One thing I can offer, though: When landing a prop job aboard, you chop the throttle upon, or just before touchdown, but with jets, you go to full throttle when the main gear touch down, until you are sure the wire has taken hold, and the plane will stop, then chop it to idle, and apply the brakes, very quickly. If you bolter, no problem, you're at full power so you fly away to try again. If the wire has ahold, and stops the plane, well, you are there. Unfortunately, FSX doesn't simulate the wires perfectly, and VERY shortly after fully stopping the aircraft, it is released again. Thus, the need to go to idle and apply the brakes once you're sure you will stop. If you don't, you will drive right off the end of the deck, even with the brakes applied.
A side note to all that: If you do bolter, make sure you shut off the AB's, if the plane has them, once you start to climb. Keep the Velocity Vector in the HUD on the Waterline. Shft+F4 will do the trick, if you use the keyboard, and used F4 to go to full throttle. If you have a throttle you use of some other kind, just back off until the AB's go out. Monitor the engine instruments. Part of the 5000 things you need to do Bjoern mentioned.
If you stay in AB, you will probably overspeed the gear, and maybe the flaps, on planes that aren't the Hornet. The FCS of the Hornet will take care of the flaps automatically for you, but not the gear.
Ok, ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for all my babbling...
Pat☺
Sgt of Marines
USMC, 10 years proud service.
Inactive now...
I have an addition to Bjoern's list:
17: Don't panic when your cat jumps on your lap just as you cross the round down... (sigh).
Just happened to me trying to put the Vertigo Avenger down on HMS Unicorn. Let's just say I filled out my A25... !
Mark
Can someone please buy Pat a beer! We need to loosen him up so he'll say more than just a few quick words!
Just yanking the chain a little, Pat
Charlie Awaiting the new Microsoft Flight Sim and will eventually buy a new computer. Running a Chromebook for now!
Pat, don't let them get you down! LOL
I am a terrible typist, so my posts are normally pretty short. I love it when someone is eloquent enough to put all those thoughts into words!
Okay, I still haven't found a launchbar section in either VS SBD or the default Hornet. But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly and I need a dryer big enough to put the SBD in.
Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right.
I should have mentioned this earlier but didn't want to muddy the waters with exceptions.
Some FSX native aircraft have the launch section baked into the model - hence why you can't find it in the aircraft.cfg. This is the case with the default Hornet, and might be with the SBD - I don't own it, not sure.
If you have AI Carriers installed, you can launch and recover any carrier-equipped plane from any carrier that's been thus equipped. Shift U (the keys I use, can't recall if that's default or if I changed it - been years) - lowers the launch bar (on the Hornet and some more modern planes like the A-7 that had them). Shift I to arm the catapult, and CTRL Space to launch. Works flawlessly for me, for launches.
Recovery is as per the pattern, and coming aboard on speed. Curved / crabbed approaches for taildraggers helps with visibility. Once you're aligned, use power for maintaining altitude, minor adjustments for attitude, AoA. No flares or settling - fly on power the whole way down the wire. I'd suggest if you're crashing that consistently, hangar the Seafire for a few weeks' maintenance. That thing was nasty as a carrier plane for the inexperienced, and next to nothing right about it, from a suitability for carrier use point of view. Again, if bad landings routinely exceed your good landings, some FCLP practice is in order.
Approach flying skill aside, the biggest obstacle is your use of a static carrier - by flying onto a non-moving carrier, physics is working completely against you. You're not letting the moving carrier give you that 25kt speed differential to give you a controlled, smooth (in carrier terms) landing. Landings always happen on a moving ship for a reason. And where possible, into the wind. So, in keeping with Phantom pointed out regarding the tailhook, the arresting action is working against you - the unduly high landing speed (relative to the carrier) is making everything bone-jarringly violent when it needn't be.
Again - rethink your plane, at least for now. Wozza's freeware SNJ is a good stable trainer for 40s-50s naval period. Dial in some wind over the deck (reciprocal course to your approach), and of course ensure the carrier is moving. It's been a while, but if my memory of the SNJ is correct, at min fuel and full flaps, you'll be making approaches in the range of 67 kts. Subtract your carrier's speed of 25kts and even mild wind of 8 kts - that's now only a 34kt speed differential with respect to the carrier. Should be doable. If you're still struggling, fly the Flying Stations Swordfish - you'll almost be chasing the carrier, it lands so slow. Either of the FSX (Ant or Piglet) T-28 would be even better choices, in that with nosegear, your attitude affords better visibility. Rock steady, and a superb confidence builder.
I wish I could suggest an instant magic solution - but there's no replacement for starting slow, and working up - that's the fastest way to get good. Starting with fast aircraft and bad habits is just a long frustrating road that prevents you from getting good. YMMV ...Enjoy the journey.
dl
ps - Pat/PhantomTweak, thanks for some great tips. And for your participation in Jimi's FSXBA project. Until (if?) I get the VRS Hornet, that model is my Hornet of choice. And yes, it feels like cheating, how straight forward the handling is, when flown to weight and speed. Not a big glass cockpit guy, but that one is a keeper, by a long shot. Thanks again.
Last edited by delta_lima; July 31st, 2018 at 21:58. Reason: post scriptum
In FSX-native models, some 3D parts can be tagged as arrestor hook or launch bar. In that case, the corresponding sections in the aircraft.cfg become useless.
If a launch bar or arrestor hook sections are added manually into the aircraft.cfg of a plane, they will then be considered in priority one, over the ones defined in hte 3D model. But this is usually not recommended.
EDIT: Delta Lima was faster
Been there! We have 4 furbabies, and 2 of them have a passion for my lap. But only when I'm about to stand up to go to the head or something like that. I love them all, but I get frustrated with them sometimes...BunkiesterI have an addition to Bjoern's list:
17: Don't panic when your cat jumps on your lap just as you cross the round down... (sigh).
Just happened to me trying to put the Vertigo Avenger down on HMS Unicorn. Let's just say I filled out my A25... !
Mark
Like I said, most devs build the launchbar and tailhook right into their 3D model file for the plane. Not to mention, SBD's don't use launchbars, or a cat. They get the boat steaming into the wind as fast as she'll go, rev the engine while holding the brakes, then let go and fly off the deck. Hornet's, obviously, are a different kettle of fish. But there may not be a launchbar section in the aircraft.cfg. I wager there's a tailhook section, but I haven't looked at the default Hornet since I first found the FSX BA Hornet. Did I mention that the FSX BA team that's making these new planes is the same team that developed the default plane? Think about it.WillyOkay, I still haven't found a launchbar section in either VS SBD or the default Hornet. But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly and I need a dryer big enough to put the SBD in.
To make a good landing with the SBD, try using an AICarriers capable straight deck carrier. They're out there. Heck, I think the library here at SOH has at least a couple. Anyway, set the carrier in motion so t's moving forward, creating some WOD (Wind Over the Deck). If you want, add a few knots wind down the deck with the built in weather engine. It helps. Make sure the wind in coming down the deck heading in the correct direction. Don't have it coming from the fantail, make sure it comes from bow towords stern! It can be tricky, to get the firection of the wind just right. The weather engine shows the wind direction in magnetic north, but when you OK out to the initial weather screen, it's displayed in True North. You'll have to do a little trial-and-error correcting to get it just right.
Make sure you're going the right speed, and have the proper weight to land. Ensure you keep the correct AOA for the plane's weight and speed. Use the correct, curving approach the props had to use, because they couldn't see over the nose otherwise. AOA is vital to ensure the hook and main gear have the proper relation to one another. Too high, and you will get an "in-flight engagement", where the hook grabs while the mains are still up in the air. Makes for a real hard touchdown as the hook slaps you out of the sky. Usually drives the struts up through the wings, which is really hard on planes. Too low, and the hook may well skip all the wires entirely.
The more modern fighters, jets, don't have that problem. Seeing over the nose, that is. And you can always raise your viewpoint some to see better. The BA Hornet, as well as the T-45 and F-14 from Dino, you can see the FLOLS and the deck fine from the default view point.
Keep the Velocity Vector (tadpole) on the deck, just ahead of the #4 wire, keep the AOA correct, which keeps the speed and plane's angle of approach correct to grab the #3 wire. Again, use a carrier that is AICarriers usable, set it in motion, and add wind to make the proper WOD for that plane. The Hornet needs at least 35 knots. I'd have to check the NATOPS for the other two planes to verify what they need.
A trick, that works very well to keep you lined up on the angle deck's centerline, but drives LSO's nuts, is to place the tadpole on the ship's "crotch". That small area between the end of the angle deck, and the side of the forward deck edge. As the boat moves forward, and the wind blows against your plane, the Angle deck's centerline will move from your left to right, perforce. Aiming at the ship's crotch makes your plane move in a very similar fashion, so when get to in-close, you'll be right on the centerline. A small rudder input to line up, and bang, you're down.
Another thing you might check for the SBD, BTW, is the cable_force line in the tailhook section of the aircraft.cfg. Try increasing it a couple tenths. That may be necessary for that plane.
Now, it's time for me to go grab a beer, and then head to bed.
Good luck!
Pat☺
Sgt of Marines
USMC, 10 years proud service.
Inactive now...
Umm the Dauntless would never have had a launchbar and was never catapulted.
In WWII there were no aircraft than needed a catapult unless they were on a battleship..and no Dauntless was ever carried there that I know of.
You just need a straight deck carrier and about 15 - 20 kts of headway or 25-30 kts of wind over the bow.
l don't think that can be right. If it were, then why on earth were carriers as early as the USN Lexington and RN Courageous fitted with them, not to mention later wartime fleet and many escort carriers?In WWII there were no aircraft than needed a catapult unless they were on a battleship
In 1944 Saratoga had two new catapults installed, primarily to enable her to operate TBMs. (Chesnau : "Aircraft Carriers of the World")
Rats - why won't anything work properly first time?
Hey Willy - I don't think you will get anywhere with the ugly old stationary carrier off of S.F. Bay. It is just a scenery bgl and the "built in" launch and trap functionality you get with FSX - and not with FS9 - I think will only work with a ship model that is a simobject i.e., not too different from an AI aircraft. We really need you set up with AI carriers, then you will see the world is your oyster, as you can spawn a single cv or carrier group anywhere in the world - and they all move! As a warbird fan you will find a good choice of WW II straight deck Essex and other boats to practice on. Happy trapping!But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly
Thanks guys, that explains why the SBD will slow down on the deck, but not stop. Actually most US Navy carriers in WW2 did have cats. Some of the pre-war ones had cats in the hanger bay to launch aircraft out the side of the ship. Apparently those didn't work so good as they were removed during the war if the ship survived long enough.
The VS SBD has a tail hook lever in the VC. It also has an entry in the aircraft.cfg for the tail hook. Stall speed is 64kts, so I've been coming in around 70 to 80kts. I was trying the big deck as I know that I'm a few years out of practice setting one down on a deck and wanted a big target at first. In FS9, if it had a flight deck, I could land on it with the old D-ware SBD.
Now to find the time without being interrupted to install AICarriers. Which is kind of hard to do around here.
Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right.
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