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  1. #1
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Cls dc10 hd

    Not much of a military bent with this one but anyway thoughts and input on some aspects would be appreciated.

    Background - I have always liked the DC-10, it actually was a pretty good looking aeroplane and despite its original problems in the real world which gave it bad press only two major accidents were caused by design issues the first the Turkish accident near Paris and the Sioux City turbine blade failure accident, the rest were the usual cluster of weather and poor flying, bombs etc. CLS originally made this for MS2004 then did a portover for FSX. I bought it to get the DC10-30 and the Tanker version the Extender. While it was ok it was not great and after a time I parked it and forgot about it. I had also forgotten about the rebuild by CLS for JustFlight as FLite version and after a preliminary look thought for $20 why not.

    What can I say, still a good looking aeroplane and the rework has actually done wonders, a more functional VC and it now included a FE position that worked as well (to a point) they obviously reworked the interior model because the window frames and general layout are now spot on in terms of visuals and the texturing work I thought was pretty damn good. The HD paints are also pretty good as well. The upgrades to the VC - Pilot and FE are substantial and about 80% of it is functional. Then I did well attempted to do some runs and flying to see how it went - ummm, in a nutshell, very disappointing.

    The acceleration on takeoff was more like an F18 not a 300 ton airliner especially at max weights. Pitch control was poor and trim responses very slow as well.

    Major issues - the FMC while looking great is only about 10% functional and would only work it a flight plan was loaded first and then only partially. The Autopilot and speed control were completely out of sync and fluctuated badly. The Autopilot would fail to hold a VS mode properly either and around 25,000 foot despite being at 98% N2 the speed would decay and it would stall. Regaining control by AP disconnect and after substantial height loss waiting for the appropriate pitch down to recover (woeful control response!) you could get it back up to about F300 but only at about 500 fpm in very cold conditions (ISA -10). Not sure what the FD is supposed to do but whatever it is it it does not do it. Basically something was seriously amiss with the engine data configuration and it basically would not develop power above F180 or manage a reasonable rate of climb as a result, this was not the way a DC-10 behaved. They were pretty damn good.

    The fuel cut off controls on the pedestal while moving if activated via the 2D pop up would not work by mouse in the VC despite indicating they should. None of the comms control panel on the pedestal work either, only for show.

    A lot of close investigation of data, gauges, configuration and air files has been going on ever since because there is no support forum of any worth and no responses to issues either. Please take note those interested. My impressions, CLS did a lot of really good work and that is obvious from the VC and new interior model, textures etc, but it is full of basic errors that are carried across the various variants in the files and after a while you realise that this was a rush job and the outcome is basically what had the potential to be a very good sim model has been stuffed up badly, why I have no idea, it is almost like they got so far, stopped and just put it out there anyway.

    So far I have fixed the following:

    Actually put the correct light data and points into the cfg files (they were missing nearly all of them)
    Corrected all the turbine engine data, fuel usage values and other critical variable and values so it is now correct for the CF6-6 etc. (For example the inlet area was so totally out of whack no wonder it ran out of puff at F180).
    Corrected all the fuel tank quantities and values.
    Corrected the performance data (They did not seem to know which was which at one stage and had them mixed up, DC-10-10 or DC-10-30 or DC-10-40)
    Finally grafted in the freeware Honeywell FMC which now works as intended and does work with the AP properly now.

    If anybody has any ideas how to make the fuel cutoff switches work if they are modelled in 2D and operate in the VC once operated in 2D your thoughts would be appreciated.

    If anybody is interested I do intend to make available via uploads probably here, the new aircraft and panel config files with all the changes and fixes, simply because I hate to see such good work as was done go to waste or hit the dustbin of history. Still a way to go while I sort out to my satisfaction what needs to be done and what can be done.

    Anybody else tinkering or trying to fix this one up?

  2. #2
    If the 2D and 3D cutoff switches are out of sync, they're not using the same variables. Load the interior model into ModelConverterX, check the 2D gauge (if XML) and see where things are out of whack.

  3. #3
    Are you using the CLS or the JustFlight version? I have the JF version and they have made updates to it, at least the last release updated it to support P3D4.
    Joe Cusick
    San Francisco Bay Area, California.

    I am serious, and stop calling me Shirley.

  4. #4
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    It is the JF version for FSX not P3D.

    The critical issue I have is really this:

    Thrust appears normal and N1/N2 values are ok and remain constant on the climb (assuming MTOW) and ISA temperatures. The ECR unit appears to calculate correct EPR settings on the N gauge which do adjust.
    Engine Inlet Heat is selected.

    Aircraft climbs normally and accelerates to only about M0.58 (@300kts IAS) but this a barber pole limit now on the ASI. The proper climb speed should be around M0.68.
    From about F140 speed begins to decay slowly with no change in the Engine output indicators on the gauges.
    From about F180 speed decays further back to about 200 kts IAS, then decays rapidly approaching F250 to 180 kts IAS and corresponding M numbers.

    The autopilot is correcting properly for the lack of climb by pitching up, however controlling the VS reducing from 2000 FPM to 1000 FPM then even to less than 500 fpm will not prevent the speed decay, pitch correction (lowering the nose) does not improve the speed issue which tells me the thrust values are completely wrong because if it was merely and over pitch problem, lowering the nose would increase the speed and the aircraft if it was developing correct thrust would begin to accelerate again, this it will not do until it is allowed to descend back down to below F200 and then it will increase speed slowly.

    I have checked the inlet area values, the static thrust, fuel, bypass ratio etc and have the proper values which are not all that much different to those CLS put in the config file.

    This tells me there is something amiss with the tables in the air file. I am currently hunting about for a similar engined model to compare it with. Probably the CS767 at this stage is the best bet as the default FSX 747 is based on RR RB211 engines not the GE CF6-6 engines.

    Any thoughts appreciated. Probably should post this over at FS Developer but thought I would start with the SimOuthouse folk who are generally pretty cluey about a heap of stuff.

  5. #5
    No need to post on FSDev. I can tell you right here that you'd be in for a lot of blood, sweat and tears if you want to correct the lift, drag and power tables in the AIR file, if only by trial & error.


    An easier solution would be trying this, although it's mostly stability derivatives:
    https://simviation.com/1/browse-Civi...rk=54263#54263
    (Second from bottom.)

  6. #6
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Bjoern - that sure is true. Sounds like you talk from experience. This area of the sim sure is a problem. XML stuff I am happy with once I know what I am looking for but fiddling or doing air files is a whole business, I have enough aerodynamic and power plant knowledge to work this stuff out but easy it is not.

    Took me all night to discover that the ACES tool referred to in the SDK was not actually shipped with the SDK and to get it apparently you had to pay for the developer tools for ESP. I also discovered that AAM or the simple editor tool which is actually very good for a lot of simple changes or tweaks could not edit tables, let you look at them but not edit or change them due to some major compiling issues. Fine found another tool from MS to do the recompiling using MS Visual Express C++ 2005, no cannot load it out of date, update it, no cannot do it VC not found even though it has been updated and loaded into two locations on the drives just in case. No answer to that issue either. Finally found a good little tool to open up the file, get it to text but it will not recompile hence the need for MS Vis Express C++.

    On a positive note found thanks to FSDEV a neat tool on the NASA website to model the engines and develop the tables. Comparison with some tables done by folks in Russia at Captain Sim on the identical engine showed pretty close comparison so the tables should be good. So at the moment I have the tables done, that took a while, but no means yet of getting this data back into an air file format. Now having a look at AAM V2.2 see if that will do the job.

    Seems this jet engine turboprop modelling for the sim is not very straightforward at all. The other issue is the placement of out of date syntax and variables in both air files and config files. Seems no body is quite sure if this works or does not work. For example bypass ratio was used in older sims but not in FSX and is not mentioned in the SDK yet there it is in any number of files for turbine aircraft in FSX, does it do anything not sure because I cannot find out what value it would reference in the air file. So it goes on. Something to do on a cold winters night down under anyway.

  7. #7
    SOH-CM-2021 BendyFlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoern View Post
    No need to post on FSDev. I can tell you right here that you'd be in for a lot of blood, sweat and tears if you want to correct the lift, drag and power tables in the AIR file, if only by trial & error.


    An easier solution would be trying this, although it's mostly stability derivatives:
    https://simviation.com/1/browse-Civi...rk=54263#54263
    (Second from bottom.)
    Thanks Bjoern - looking at that now as the CLS version does not appear to reducing the speeds correctly (not badly) with flap deployment to allow for a correct Vapp Vat. Basically you need to remain at no less than minimum stall speed 142 which is too high with full flap for threshold touchdown speeds, the pitch angles appear ok but seems there is a lack of lift.

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