Current state of naval / tactical aviation simulation?

[Ganter]

After my rather hasty initial post referring to your post count - for which I apologise for my ignorance - I've spent the day researching and looking in to this Stinger - and I must say I am humbled. You guys are taking this to a whole new level. Respect to you.

I need to practice my Immelmanns and scissors a lot more before I brave the fore with some of you guys. Kudos to you.

[henrystreet]

After my rather hasty initial post referring to your post count - for which I apologise for my ignorance - I've spent the day researching and looking in to this Stinger - and I must say I am humbled. You guys are taking this to a whole new level. Respect to you.

I need to practice my Immelmanns and scissors a lot more before I brave the fore with some of you guys. Kudos to you.

It is formation and comm brevity skills that are usually the most lacking in new members.

[Ganter]

It is formation and comm brevity skills that are usually the most lacking in new members.

Comms, I'm not too bad - I've had a radio license as a sailor for many years and as a rw pilot for a few - so, know brevity is the soul of being understood fast.

Formation? - Ummm - that's another matter, I'm either too quick; and overshoot, or too slow; and under achieve required speed and alt. It really is bloody difficult to match speed with 8 tons of metal travelling at 550 KIAS less than 15 feet away from you at 16 thou.

Any hints very gratefully received.

[wombat666]

Keep it civil ladies, keep it civil.

[Ganter]

Have you read the whole thread Wombat?

Nothing uncivil going on here - just a junior member (me) plugging the old boys for some flying hints.
They know how to formation fly - and I can't!

[henrystreet]

Any hints very gratefully received.

TacPack is the way I would suggest. The AAR capabilities allow you to assign any aircraft as a "tanker" plus, when you are versed enough, you can immediately do AAR.

All the Microsoft based virtual USN squadrons that I know of use TacPack as a required component anyway.

In the real world USN curriculum, the nuggets fly a couple of years learning formation. Those who end up in FRS, learn AAR flying with a buddy tanker.

[Ganter]

TacPack is the way I would suggest. The AAR capabilities allow you to assign any aircraft as a "tanker" plus, when you are versed enough, you can immediately do AAR.

All the Microsoft based virtual USN squadrons that I know of use TacPack as a required component anyway.

In the real world USN curriculum, the nuggets fly a couple of years learning formation. Those who end up in FRS, learn AAR flying with a buddy tanker.

That's poignant Henry as that's when I realised I had major probs with formation flying - when I installed Tacpack and summoned the Tanker. I just couldn't hit the pipe. Too fast, too slow, losing altitude, accelerate, go flying past it. It's so difficult. I certainly have a lot of work to do. I'm not long in to this so it's early days I guess. I mainly fly the F-35B (Dino's) and the SSW AV-8B - I'd say I'm better on the Harrier than the Lightening in terms of rapid speed check/ control and I've worked out it's better to come from below as from above (better energy management). Please tell me if I'm wrong. I could really do with some hints.

Cheers.

[henrystreet]

That's poignant Henry as that's when I realised I had major probs with formation flying - when I installed Tacpack and summoned the Tanker. I just couldn't hit the pipe. Too fast, too slow, losing altitude, accelerate, go flying past it. It's so difficult. I certainly have a lot of work to do. I'm not long in to this so it's early days I guess. I mainly fly the F-35B (Dino's) and the SSW AV-8B - I'd say I'm better on the Harrier than the Lightening in terms of rapid speed check/ control and I've worked out it's better to come from below as from above (better energy management). Please tell me if I'm wrong. I could really do with some hints.

Cheers.

Everybody is terrible at first :-) No substitute for daily practice.

EDIT: Some, hopefully helpful advice: 1) Lower your sim settings until you have sustained (and locked at) 30FPS when at the tanker 2) Check out BlueZone on youtube.

[stearmandriver]

Funny you mention this... I've always had a little trouble flying formation in the sim (though I never seriously practiced it before) even though I've been flying RW formation work for years, including acro. I'm talking about civilian aircraft in the RW and sim, but obviously the mechanics are the same. There seems to be some kind of cue - probably visual, sight picture related - that's missing for me in the sim. I've not been able to put my finger on it, but SOMETHING is just different enough to throw me...

[Ganter]

Everybody is terrible at first :-) No substitute for daily practice.

EDIT: Some, hopefully helpful advice: 1) Lower your sim settings until you have sustained (and locked at) 30FPS when at the tanker 2) Check out BlueZone on youtube.

I'll check it out, thanks Governor. Daily practise definitely and I'll get good frames to have an even shot at realistic actions/ movements.

Funny you mention this... I've always had a little trouble flying formation in the sim (though I never seriously practiced it before) even though I've been flying RW formation work for years, including acro. I'm talking about civilian aircraft in the RW and sim, but obviously the mechanics are the same. There seems to be some kind of cue - probably visual, sight picture related - that's missing for me in the sim. I've not been able to put my finger on it, but SOMETHING is just different enough to throw me...

Yes, that is interesting. I've only ever flown formation in rw once - and that was from Lee-On-Solent across the Solent to Sandown where we had a fly-in. My CFI told me to keep the other Warrior's nose on the edge of the right windscreen and maintain a separation of at least 100 yards; so, wasn't really a good lesson in formation flying. I wonder what that difference is in rw and sim cues for positioning is; I wonder if it's not another case of simply 'hitting the ceiling' with dear old FSX.

I'm off now - going to spawn some AI tube-liners at FL300 and give them a poke. I'm from the UK and tempting though it is - I guess I'm going to have to get used to the F-35. I do love the Harrier - but that's in the past. Mind you, I'll go off the Queen Elizabeth by CIMOGT - and that's pretty good.

Clear skies and thanks Henry and all for the hints - will definitely research.

[edakridge]

As far as AAR, Tacpack is the way to go. As far as tanking from one pilot to another, you can only do it with the Superbug as tanker for now. I have been tinkering with a gauge that was sent to me by another member of the VRS forums that will enable this, but only in P3D or FSX multiplayer. This means that both of you must be running the same sim and version. As to finding us at the USNVA, we are easy to find: www.usnva.com We are a part of the DigitalThemePark community on Teamspeak. ( ts3.digitalthemepark.com ) We welcome guests, but you will be stuck in the lobby until someone notices you and drags you down to our channels. This is a safety measure that helps prevent children from disrupting things. As to our campaigns/operations: We welcome all skill levels as long as you are over 18. We do not allow minors. We develop all of our own FSX@War packs "In House". I have tried collaborating with others, but I am too old and pigheaded to work well with others anymore.

[Stinger]

After my rather hasty initial post referring to your post count - for which I apologise for my ignorance - I've spent the day researching and looking in to this Stinger - and I must say I am humbled. You guys are taking this to a whole new level. Respect to you.

I need to practice my Immelmanns and scissors a lot more before I brave the fore with some of you guys. Kudos to you.

Nothing to apologize about, there are not enough “Naval Aviators” out there, just glad you’re enjoy it. If you ever need any advise ... hit me up... i’d be glad to lend you my expertise

[stearmandriver]

Man, lots of great info / discussion on this topic. Thanks everyone! (I think... This may get expensive lol.) You've really got me fired up to get into study mode with all this. I'll definitely be going the Superbug / Tacpack route... Any advice on study material or tutorials? I assume VRS provides some good material, and that Blue Zone channel mentioned above looks great as well. Any others?

For you USNVA guys... I assume you're looking for basic aircraft handling proficiency around the boat for any new "recruits"? Or are there additional prereqs? Just curious.

[henrystreet]

Man, lots of great info / discussion on this topic. Thanks everyone! (I think... This may get expensive lol.) You've really got me fired up to get into study mode with all this. I'll definitely be going the Superbug / Tacpack route... Any advice on study material or tutorials? I assume VRS provides some good material, and that Blue Zone channel mentioned above looks great as well. Any others?

For you USNVA guys... I assume you're looking for basic aircraft handling proficiency around the boat for any new "recruits"? Or are there additional prereqs? Just curious.

Here is an example curriculum I wrote for my own use. It's a good bit more effort than most squadrons will require. And for good reason, real world aviators have their life on the line and practice way more than we do. Still, with some reading and flying the rides, you will get a good idea of some lesser used skills, learning a lot in the challenges. Reference the real world CNATRA website for PAT PUBS (training manuals).

https://uchisworld.wordpress.com/201...vils-workshop/

Enjoy!

[Stinger]

Man, lots of great info / discussion on this topic. Thanks everyone! (I think... This may get expensive lol.) You've really got me fired up to get into study mode with all this. I'll definitely be going the Superbug / Tacpack route... Any advice on study material or tutorials? I assume VRS provides some good material, and that Blue Zone channel mentioned above looks great as well. Any others?

For you USNVA guys... I assume you're looking for basic aircraft handling proficiency around the boat for any new "recruits"? Or are there additional prereqs? Just curious.

Our only prerequisite is that you have fun while enjoying the camaraderie of our membership. We’ll teach you the rest.. And for those who find Carrier Ops beyond their capabilities we have a support Squadron that flys heavies and rotary

[PhantomTweak]

Does this help at all for the formation flying? It's for the F/A-18, but should be adaptable to nearly any plane easily...

That IS from the real life F/A-18 A/B/C/D NATOPS, so it's what the US Navy really uses. I can post a few more pages, including the text from the NATOPS, and what other pictures there are, if you want.
Notice how everyone in the formation is flying only off the Lead plane. Stay focused on him ONLY. Constantly. Keep a good scan pattern, but when you're outside, ONLY look at Lead.
Very, VERY small throttle adjustments. Same for the stick. VERY small movements. Easiest if your controller's null zones are set to 0, or nearly so. Lets you make the tiny adjustments needed.

Formations this tight are normal Navy procedure, but ONLY in VFR conditions. If you can't see the lead well enough, the formation may either expand greatly, like to an eye-ball/shooter formation if dash-2 has a good radar lock on Lead, or even break up. Say Lead goes up 500' and dash-2 goes down 500', and dash-2 takes a 10° course change away from lead's course for 1 minute. Just for example, but you get the idea.

Dark, moonless/horizonless nights are an entirely different animal. Beware you don't fly formation on a star, or try to join up on a streetlight! When in doubt, at least in MP, you can always call "Christmas Tree" to have lead turn on all his external light bright, so hopefully you can see him. And bear in mind, your Radar is your friend!

I think I can dig up the download location for this, and a lot of other, NATOPS, as well as numerous Navy and various other service pubs.

Good luck!
Pat☺

[wombat666]

[QUOTE=Ganter;1138126]Have you read the whole thread Wombat?]

Unfortunately yes.

[Ganter]

Pat, what's the latest FSXBA F-18 version - didn't a new one come out not that long ago?

Cheers,

Later: Just checked - I've got version 17.1.30 - is there a big difference between that one and 17.1.31 ?

[Ganter]

[QUOTE=wombat666;1138195]

Have you read the whole thread Wombat?]

Unfortunately yes.

LOL

[edakridge]

Downloading ver 18.2.22 to check it out now. Says that it is P3Dv4 compatible!

[Ganter]

Downloading ver 18.2.22 to check it out now. Says that it is P3Dv4 compatible!

Is that version still good for FSX do you know?

[COBS]

Formation? - Ummm - that's another matter, I'm either too quick; and overshoot, or too slow; and under achieve required speed and alt. It really is bloody difficult to match speed with 8 tons of metal travelling at 550 KIAS less than 15 feet away from you at 16 thou.

Any hints very gratefully received.

I cheat.
I select and Lock On a target aircraft in the radar that I want to do formation flying on .
The data field overlay on the radar provides information on that aircraft and relative information such as , Distance , closing speed ,
height above or below , relative bearing degrees with Left or Right , and a blue directional arrow .
Enables formation flying even in zero visibility or if the aircraft is behind you and thus out of sight .
This radar arrangement enables intercept of aircraft that are initially beyond visual ranges .

However if you don't have a radar that provides adequate information on the target aircraft , you have no alternative but visual clues .
Three aspect that can be of assistance are ,
1. Airbrake used to prevent overshoot , deploy On then Off , repeat if necessary .

2. Maintain thae target aircraft at a fixed visual reference point relative to the canopy bow .

3. Most HUD's have both a Velocity Vector and an Energy Caret , observe the relationship as you use thrust (throttle) to increase or decrease airspeed .
The Energy Caret will be exactly next to the Velocity Vector when the speed is constant , that will enable you to maintain station relative to
your target aircraft .

Cheers
Karol

[Ganter]

I cheat.
I select and Lock On a target aircraft in the radar that I want to do formation flying on .
The data field overlay on the radar provides information on that aircraft and relative information such as , Distance , closing speed ,
height above or below , relative bearing degrees with Left or Right , and a blue directional arrow .
Enables formation flying even in zero visibility or if the aircraft is behind you and thus out of sight .
This radar arrangement enables intercept of aircraft that are initially beyond visual ranges .

However if you don't have a radar that provides adequate information on the target aircraft , you have no alternative but visual clues .
Three aspect that can be of assistance are ,
1. Airbrake used to prevent overshoot , deploy On then Off , repeat if necessary .

2. Maintain thae target aircraft at a fixed visual reference point relative to the canopy bow .

3. Most HUD's have both a Velocity Vector and an Energy Caret , observe the relationship as you use thrust (throttle) to increase or decrease airspeed .
The Energy Caret will be exactly next to the Velocity Vector when the speed is constant , that will enable you to maintain station relative to
your target aircraft .

Cheers
Karol

Thanks for taking the time to post this valuable information Karol. I hadn't thought of airbrake deployment. I'll certainly put those points to use in the sim.

[COBS]

Unfortunately the image that I previously posted was reduced to such an extent that the radar text could not be read .
Hopefully this shot is better .

Text data is relative to target aircraft in previous panel shot .
Radar zoom distance is 1 nm , selected target aircraft is bracketed just above user aircraft icon.
The bottom "AA" button (Air to Air) opens target selection and text data , when that function is required .

Target aircraft is ,
Distance 311 feet from my aircraft
1 (one ) foot higher
11 degrees left of nose
closing speed is 0 kts


Previously I mentioned the Energy Caret to Velocity Vector relationship .
Ordinarily when you change throttle setting it's effect on the airspeed is a ballpark guess , however the movement of the
Energy Caret brings extreme precision to the task , and enables very small airspeed changes to be made , it acts
almost like a precision vernier affair .
The actual Energy Caret reflects aircraft acceleration , but works beautifully to sense very small airspeed changes , and that
is critically vital in formation work .

Cheers
Karol

[stearmandriver]

Is that version still good for FSX do you know?

It is, I'm running it now. Someone answered the same question when I asked in another thread. You just have to replace a couple files. FSX compatibility notes are at the bottom of this thread:
http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/ind...html#msg123280