FSX Native Douglas A-20 Havoc Released

[wellis]

Apparently you know me all too well Milton. I actually had a metal skin in the queue.
I'm testing it in P3Dv4.1, seeing how the setup works with light effects there.

I'll let the other guys work with the skins, but I'll putter away on my end too.

Excellent! All kinds of good stuff and more jumping up and down in appreciation! :-)

[huub vink]

There are a few more field modification variants coming, just FYI.

Paintable nose and 3 nose gun variations for these models.

By request ... and when I have time.

Great!!! Now the Aussies can fly the proper models! (And we too of course )

Thanks,
Huub

[stovall]

What a great team with some great things coming in the future. This is a special aircraft as one of my really go friends flew the Havoc in New Guinea.

Here is a picture from Bob's Havoc showing an A20G being hit by Japanese gunfire and later crashing into the sea.

[Milton Shupe]

Great!!! Now the Aussies can fly the proper models! (And we too of course )

Thanks,
Huub

LOL These will represent the A-20A and "C" models. A lot of those mods were done to the "A" models from pics I have seen.

I did not model cooling holes in the cowlings for the "A" to preserve the mesh and paint kit investment. They will have to be painted on.

[gman5250]

After a quick look at the "metal" model in P3Dv4.1, it looks like your setup is just about perfect Milton. The model works with the Dynamic Lighting and Dynamic Reflections very well.

I'll experiment with texture/alpha depth and also create a dedicated specular file for each texture sheet. Once the alpha balance for texture and spec files are dialed in, the plane should be a stunner.

This one will merit putting aluminum skin texturing into each panel section. That, and creating a service skin and restoration skin seems to be a logical step.

Nicely done on the model sir.

[gman5250]

Rick...I know you're out there....metal skins................irresistible.........

[jankees]

[Sundog]

Rick...I know you're out there....metal skins................irresistible.........

LOL, I have to agree.

[Portia911]

What a great team with some great things coming in the future. This is a special aircraft as one of my really go friends flew the Havoc in New Guinea.

Here is a picture from Bob's Havoc showing an A20G being hit by Japanese gunfire and later crashing into the sea.

Wow Tom, that is one drama-packed shot!
Thanks for sharing.

[huub vink]

Wow Tom, that is one drama-packed shot!
Thanks for sharing.

A very impressive picture indeed. Its actually one from a whole series, which you can find here: http://muskegonarearc.net/22-july-1944/

Cheers,
Huub

[gman5250]

I had a metal skin waiting...more or less. I needed to adjust the alphas , spec and spec alphas. I made dedicated spec sheets for the skin. Shown here using the Bob Rivera GlobalEnv_AC_Chrome cube map.

This is Prepar3Dv4.1, Dynamic Lighting and Dynamic Reflections disabled. With DR on she is very contrasty in the gamma range, but it's a P3D thing...not the model. Alphas need special work for Dynamic Reflections airplanes.

For the painters, alpha and spec are pretty much right in the middle of the scale, which means you can take the metal just about anywhere you want. This one is roughly 50% gray alpha and produces a high level of shine.

Nice job Milton....

polished metal with slightly grungy wear

[Bomber_12th]

I love all of the texture work/repaints being done, but I was wondering what the basis is for the domed-head rivets, both in the textures and bump maps? All of the A-20's I'm familiar with have/had flush, countersunk rivets, no matter if it is a C or G variant. Scale-wise, the rivets in the textures also appear to be about double the size as they are in reality. When painted, all you should really see from a distance are the panel lines, fasteners, and some dimpling along the paths of rivets. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

[gman5250]

I love all of the texture work/repaints being done, but I was wondering what the basis is for the domed-head rivets, both in the textures and bump maps? All of the A-20's I'm familiar with have/had flush, countersunk rivets, no matter if it is a C or G variant. Scale-wise, the rivets in the textures also appear to be about double the size as they are in reality. When painted, all you should really see from a distance are the panel lines, fasteners, and some dimpling along the paths of rivets. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

The PK has a lot of flexibility for the rivets John. I can do a flush set pretty easily, adjust size and add some subtle stress dimples. I didn't run an accent in the center of rivets in the bump map master, but the profile in the NVIDIA normal filter can certainly be taken down by a couple of points.

The actual rivet dimensions in the PK are about 4 pixels, so there is a lot to work with there.

I am always grateful to get feedback, never take it as a negative.

[stovall]

A very impressive picture indeed. Its actually one from a whole series, which you can find here: http://muskegonarearc.net/22-july-1944/

Cheers,
Huub

There is no doubt Bob knew the guys in the Havoc downed behind him. The pictures were taken from a camera mounted to take pictures to the rear of the aircraft about every second or two. I will see Bob on Tuesday to ask him about the names of flyers who perished. Bob has many more of these pictures including all those shown in the article. One other shows a swimming pool the guys were deliberately not shooting up with the 50's or bombing. They hoped that once the area was secured they would have a place to swim. Bob mentioned no such luck. The pool was destroyed by artillery before they could get there. He has many stories especially about the bugs of New Guinea.

[MZee1960]

The PK has a lot of flexibility for the rivets John. I can do a flush set pretty easily, adjust size and add some subtle stress dimples. I didn't run an accent in the center of rivets in the bump map master, but the profile in the NVIDIA normal filter can certainly be taken down by a couple of points.

The actual rivet dimensions in the PK are about 4 pixels, so there is a lot to work with there.

I am always grateful to get feedback, never take it as a negative.

Beautiful work Gordon, Milton and co. !
I can't wait to add this shiny skin to my collection, which already includes the P-51 (post #84) and many others.

(BTW - I never thought about this until reading John's post, but I too now would be curious how things would look with 'smaller' rivets - now that I look at the P-51 pics in comparison.
Just curious, I guess, now that John has brought this up, .... but hey ... IMHO, this skin is already 100% A+ as is. )

[wellis]

I had a metal skin waiting...more or less. I needed to adjust the alphas , spec and spec alphas. I made dedicated spec sheets for the skin. Shown here using the Bob Rivera GlobalEnv_AC_Chrome cube map.

This is Prepar3Dv4.1, Dynamic Lighting and Dynamic Reflections disabled. With DR on she is very contrasty in the gamma range, but it's a P3D thing...not the model. Alphas need special work for Dynamic Reflections airplanes.

For the painters, alpha and spec are pretty much right in the middle of the scale, which means you can take the metal just about anywhere you want. This one is roughly 50% gray alpha and produces a high level of shine.

Nice job Milton....

polished metal with slightly grungy wear

WOW!! Heavy metal indeed. :-)

[wellis]

I love all of the texture work/repaints being done, but I was wondering what the basis is for the domed-head rivets, both in the textures and bump maps? All of the A-20's I'm familiar with have/had flush, countersunk rivets, no matter if it is a C or G variant. Scale-wise, the rivets in the textures also appear to be about double the size as they are in reality. When painted, all you should really see from a distance are the panel lines, fasteners, and some dimpling along the paths of rivets. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

Blame the rivets on me. I started out with one pixel rivets and hated the way it looked though in retrospect it might have been more accurate. I was trying to show some relief as in the many photos I used I saw a mixture, though you are certainly correct about the majority. I also used A-20 line drawings of the rivet patterns which biased me more toward the result you see. As Gordon mentioned there is a lot of work involved in changing them although it is certainly do-able and I will be happy to rectify though it will take some time. I will see what I can do.

[gman5250]

Blame the rivets on me. I started out with one pixel rivets and hated the way it looked though in retrospect it might have been more accurate. I was trying to show some relief as in the many photos I used I saw a mixture, though you are certainly correct about the majority. I also used A-20 line drawings of the rivet patterns which biased me more toward the result you see. As Gordon mentioned there is a lot of work involved in changing them although it is certainly do-able and I will be happy to rectify though it will take some time. I will see what I can do.

Probably only a couple of days on the bumps. I've been working on a test set for the wings and have a pattern that is looking promising. I'm doing them at 4K, so there is a lot of room for detail work.

[Milton Shupe]

Blame the rivets on me. I started out with one pixel rivets and hated the way it looked though in retrospect it might have been more accurate. I was trying to show some relief as in the many photos I used I saw a mixture, though you are certainly correct about the majority. I also used A-20 line drawings of the rivet patterns which biased me more toward the result you see. As Gordon mentioned there is a lot of work involved in changing them although it is certainly do-able and I will be happy to rectify though it will take some time. I will see what I can do.

I do not think changing the rivets is necessary at this point. We are talking 4 models and 4 paint kits with almost 400 layers among them. That's serious work and not worth re-visiting IMO.

But I'll leave that to your choice. Certainly not necessary for me. I am happy with what we have as I do not count or measure rivets. :-)

Think of all the paints and bumps that have been done using the current rivets.

And when that gets changed, someone else will find something else to change.

Let them do their own A-20's. :-)

This ain't payware folks.

[gman5250]

I think re-profiling the bumps will go a long way to achieve the flush rivet finish. The bumps tend to exaggerate baked in colors, so if I flatten those profiles and reduce the actual size of the rivet itself, the existing paints should present a more accurate rendering of the actual airplanes.

The PK is a monster, and changing all of those subtle nuances would be a task.

Let's see how all of the existing skins look when I finish the flush rivet bump set.

[huub vink]

Blame the rivets on me. I started out with one pixel rivets and hated the way it looked though in retrospect it might have been more accurate. I was trying to show some relief as in the many photos I used I saw a mixture, though you are certainly correct about the majority. I also used A-20 line drawings of the rivet patterns which biased me more toward the result you see. As Gordon mentioned there is a lot of work involved in changing them although it is certainly do-able and I will be happy to rectify though it will take some time. I will see what I can do.

I'm with Gordon and Milton on this although John's observation is correct, the rivets don't annoy me. I have tried to use the rivet layers set to "negative" but this didn't really help. Roughly a flush rivet in the average 2048x2048 textures has about the size of one pixel and the average room between them is about 1.5 pixels. This doesn't leave much room for details.

For those who did build plastic model kits like me...... the average control stick in a 1/72 model had the about the same thickness an the upper arm of the average plastic pilot! And the average (stretched) antenna wire has was at least one and a half inch thick on this scale. It never bothered me, like the rivets don't bother me now. They just add to the visual effect.

The current bumps maps contribute a lot to the "domed head rivets" effect, so perhaps Gordon is able to change this with his bump map magic. Otherwise you can also choose not to use bump maps.

Cheers,
Huub

[BendyFlyer]

A very impressive picture indeed. Its actually one from a whole series, which you can find here: http://muskegonarearc.net/22-july-1944/

Cheers,
Huub

All I can say is amazing photographs but they made feel a bit sick. When you see the series the aircraft was hit before rolling, the series makes it clear to me that he lost an engine but still had the prescence of mind to shut it down but could not control the yaw to the right at low level and pranged. So close so far. You really need presence of mind to shut down a failed engine control it after taking shrapnel and explosives at low level with everyone shooting at you still. Not sure what the VMCA for a Boston/Havoc would be but it would be fairly high with those big engines and relatively small fin area.

Anyway a reminder of what these aeroplanes were mixed up in, sobering.

[wellis]

I do not think changing the rivets is necessary at this point. We are talking 4 models and 4 paint kits with almost 400 layers among them. That's serious work and not worth re-visiting IMO.

But I'll leave that to your choice. Certainly not necessary for me. I am happy with what we have as I do not count or measure rivets. :-)

Think of all the paints and bumps that have been done using the current rivets.

And when that gets changed, someone else will find something else to change.

Let them do their own A-20's. :-)

This ain't payware folks.

Thank you for your comments sir, I will take them to heart. :-)

[Mach3DS]

Rick...I know you're out there....metal skins................irresistible.........

I have been paying close attention to this thread! I will eventually get here, but my work load is a little too high ATM. Thanks for thinking of me Gordon! Compliment taken!

[gman5250]

OK...I pulled an all nighter on the bump maps and I think I have a bump profile that works nicely.

The photos don't really show the effect well, but the flush rivets create a very subtle flat reflection at the bottom of the dimples. The skin itself has a slight stretch in the channels created by the rivet rows.

Have a look at the photos and shoot me some feedback.

I have to thank Mr. Terrell for pointing out the issue of the flush rivets. It is always work to go back and make changes, but at the end of the day, the work needs to be correct.
I certainly don't mind the extra effort, and find the changes to be a major improvement to the model. I'm glad we could resolve things without any major rework of the PK.


Note:

I did not re-size the actual painted rivets in the photos here. I only removed the highlights. This skin is wrong for this model which has no cheek blisters, but is sufficient for the color/light study it was intend for. The parameters for alphas and spec remain the same as I noted in the previous post. I'll make a dedicated metal skin when any modeling changes are finalized.

I think the team can stand down on the PK revamp. If a painter is selecting the multiple layers of rivets for any given section, i.e. wing, they can adjust the mask by one or two pixels to achieve the look they desire.

I recommend no highlights, unless the artist wishes to add a very slight highlight and shadow arc on the extreme edge of the flush rivet. I've tried this at 4K, and the results are a tiny bit muddy. The only way to achieve a clean highlight is to use a hard edged round brush, then mask out all but the "thumbnail moon" crescents for light and dark. The downside of this technique is that there is no way to select all of the rivets and do the operation via a mask. It is do-able...but a ton of work.