For The Star Trek Original Series Die-Hards

[Ivan]

Hello Pennzoil3, Panther_99FS,

I guess you two must be right. I haven't seen a thing and all the scenes and inconsistencies from STD I have been describing are entirely the product of a rather vivid imagination.

Enjoy!
;-)
- Ivan.

[Panther_99FS]

I have been describing are entirely the product of a rather vivid imagination.

I agree with you here since you didn't know of Burnham's court martial nor did you know how she made it to First Officer/Commander in the first place...
You do have a great imagination though!

[Ivan]

Hello Panther_99FS,

But the question is whether you agree that the descriptions line up with what is in the show? Or should I include links to a few video clips to remind you if you are not so observant?
Actually what is the point? Others here already have posted links to reviews that cover these points and you ignore the evidence there.

I knew about the court martial. It just was not relevant to the discussion at the time or the point I was trying to make.
Court martial was after Burnham did something stupid. I was arguing why she was unsuited for a position where doing something stupid would have serious consequences.

Hindsight is perfect but to understand the decisions being made, you must work from the information that the characters have at the time they are making those decisions.

Any comments on the inconsistency of:
"You can't kill the Klingon because you will just make him into a Martyr."
.....
Gosh Darnit, After telling you all so many times why you can't kill that Klingon, I will just have to shoot him myself!!!

Where is the logic in that??? Or did I just imagine that scene too?
Don't worry, there is a LOT more of that kind of silly stuff in the show.

- Ivan.

[Panther_99FS]

Hello Panther_99FS,

- Ivan.

What I've noticed is that everyone that has issues with Discovery grew up with TOS.
I enjoy Discovery for what it is - without comparison.

The younger generation (i.e. new fans) could care less about the TOS, or the Lucas Star Wars, or the 1978 Battlestar Galactica...

[FOO FIGHTER]

What I've noticed is that everyone that has issues with Discovery grew up with TOS.
I enjoy Discovery for what it is - without comparison.

Exactly!!! Because there is no comparison. If it is not going to be Star Trek, STOP calling it Star Trek?

I have issue with it because it is a steaming pile of political correctness created by politically correct idiots who don't know a damn thing about ST or even good science fiction!

Also, there is a good way and a bad way to depict Trek a few years before Kirk's era. The people behind Discovery obviously chose the bad way. Some of the fan produced fiction that takes place before TOS makes Discovery look like a bad joke.

The younger generation (i.e. new fans) could care less about the TOS, or the Lucas Star Wars, or the 1978 Battlestar Galactica...

Then why continue those franchises? If they are so alien to the "new fans", then why are they still making movies/TV series about them? Why is Han Solo, Chewbacca and Leia in the new Star Wars film if nobody knows who they are? Why is Luke going to be in the next one? Is Disney relying solely on those "old guys" to go see it?

[Panther_99FS]

Exactly!!! Because there is no comparison. If it is not going to be Star Trek, STOP calling it Star Trek?

It is Star Trek but I believe this is a key point that you're missing:

TNG/VOY/DS9 all got away with elaborate sets and technology because the setting was so far in the future from TOS, that it was deemed "plausible".
However, when you set the stage for pre TOS series, the re-envisioned Star Trek technology clashes with 1960s television technology available in the 60s. ENT faced this issue.

So I would debate that if in the 1960s, today's filming/CGI technology were available to Gene Roddenberry back then, then TOS would have looked really different - i.e. TOS would have looked more like ENT, JJ Abrams "Kelvin" universe, or Discovery...​

And as far as your issues with political correctness are concerned, well news flash - TOS had it's own issues with PC too!!!....(Uhura and Sulu as officers & Kirk kissing Uhura)

[FOO FIGHTER]

I think you are the one missing the point.

It is not about budgets, sets or CGI, it's about quality and substance. TOS endures because it was good sci-fi set in a positive future where humanity had finally pushed beyond it's own stupidity and explored space united. Having minorities on the show wasn't PC, it was the right thing to do and helped to create that positive future. The writers/producers/directors/actors didn't force their brand of politics into your face every week either. Roddenberry didn't come out and say "I hate Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon and their supporters so I'm going to alienate half the viewing audience".

When you start messing with the original formula of something that was once great, you begin to degrade it. Giving Sarek a daughter (whether she was adopted or not), making Sulu gay or turning Boomer and Starbuck into women all in the name of PC is going to dilute that formula and make it sour. If they want strong women or gay characters then create some, don't destroy the originals.

The new Galactica was less sci-fi and more soap opera dripping with over the top sex, drama and never ending plot twists (that seems to be a staple now). Those are the viewers that it attracted and that allowed it to stay afloat as a mini-series. The follow on series Caprica, went right down the toilet and died a quick death.

For the record, ENT tanked because it sucked, period. The cast members even complained about the direction the show was taking. When you have the hot Vulcan chick naked in the shower in the pilot episode, well you kinda know which way the show is gonna go.

Again, if the studios aren't going to stay true to Star Trek, then call it something else. Don't try to lure people in with just the name.

[n4gix]

Just one observation regarding Sulu. In TOS he was "still in the closet." It was only in the other films that he was open. Since George Takei is gay, I'd say that TOS was deliberately inhibiting him in the name of being PC for that period of time.

We should also keep in mind that the Federation's fleet were vessels of exploration on scientific missions, they were not "military" although they did have weapons for protection. That is why the ships were aesthetically pleasing, in stark contrast to the ships in Battlestar Galactica which were designed as a utilitarian weapons of war, with no pretension to be otherwise.

[FOO FIGHTER]

I don't know when exactly George Takei 'came out' after the TOS, that is irrelevant to the character of Sulu. Making Sulu gay in the last movie for the sake of being PC is utter stupidity and was done solely for political purposes. It has already been firmly established in the earlier TOS movies and novels that Sulu has a biological daughter. George Takei himself is/was against making Sulu gay on the grounds that it ruined the continuity of the Trek universe and diluted the character from what he was originally intended to be. Simply saying 'it is an alternative Trek reality' just to make up some jumbled political mess and slapping ST on it ain't cutting it. Again, TOS had substance & quality and was not the whiz bang, flash in the CGI pan the latest nonsensical movies are.

Star Fleet is the Federation's military with an arm for exploration. Think of it as being the navy and NASA rolled into one entity. That is why you have commodores, captains, commanders and so on in uniform, conducting themselves with a military bearing. Do you think the Klingons & Romulans only want to bring milk & cookies to the Federation? There has to be some FORCE there to check them. Remember, Kirk and the Enterprise are on a five year mission of exploration, what were they doing before and after that?

[MrZippy]

Remember, Kirk and the Enterprise are on a five year mission of exploration, what were they doing before and after that?

Chasing every green Orion slave girl they could find! Ain't nuttin' better than that! Where's Gaila when we need her?

[Panther_99FS]

I think you are the one missing the point.

Time to agree to disagree here then....

[PRB]

This has been an interesting discussion. While I can "see" Panther_99FS's points, more or less, I can't add anything to what FOO FIGHTER has posted, since I agree with everything he has said here.

[n4gix]

Star Fleet is the Federation's military with an arm for exploration. Think of it as being the navy and NASA rolled into one entity. That is why you have commodores, captains, commanders and so on in uniform, conducting themselves with a military bearing. Do you think the Klingons & Romulans only want to bring milk & cookies to the Federation? There has to be some FORCE there to check them. Remember, Kirk and the Enterprise are on a five year mission of exploration, what were they doing before and after that?

I don't remember the exact episodes, but Capt. Kirk made the statement more than once that Starfleet was a scientific organization. Capt. Picard made similar statements over the course of the series.

DS9's "Defiant" was the only pure military starship Starfleet had at the onset of the Dominion War.

[FOO FIGHTER]

I don't remember those exact episodes either.

He did say:

"I'm a soldier not a diplomat." - Errand of Mercy
"Out here, we're the only policemen around. A crime has been committed." - Arena

The episode 'The Ultimate Computer' involved war games between the Enterprise and three other Star Fleet ships. There's also the on going flexing of muscles and threats between Star Fleet and the Klingons.

As I have stated before, every movie and TV series that followed the TWOK was just sci-fi with the Star Trek name attached to it (IMO). While each series had a decent episode or two, overall they failed to reflect the charm and substance of the TOS. And it's interesting to note, those episodes that raked in the ratings dealt with the TOS. Those that come to mind are: "Yesterday's Enterprise" (NG), "Relics" (NG) and "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9).

[Ivan]

Hey Guys,

I thought that the "Dominion Wars" episodes from DS9 were pretty good in general.
I do wonder a bit about how much shorter the lifespans of ships tend to be in a fleet battle as versus single ship battles.
In a fleet battle, shields tend to be pretty useless and one or two good hits are often enough to cause a catastrophic explosion.

Enterprise / M5 fought FOUR other starships: Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin, Hood.

Regarding USS Defiant as the first pure warship in the series, one has to remember that it was the first ship in the series that was not permanently manned. It was not on constant patrols and exploration in remote locations and thus would not need to be nearly as self sufficient.

What I find amazing in the movies after TWOK is the incredible transformation of Captain Kirk et al. from savvy explorers who have managed to survive in many alien environments and cultures into a bunch of bumbling fools unable to blend in with something from the history of their own planet.
Could it be advanced case of senility?

- Ivan.

[n4gix]

Regarding USS Defiant as the first pure warship in the series, one has to remember that it was the first ship in the series that was not permanently manned. It was not on constant patrols and exploration in remote locations and thus would not need to be nearly as self sufficient.

Rather that do an extensive cut-and-paste, I give you instead this link to a very through examination of the "Defiant Class" of Federation Warships:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Defiant_class

[Ivan]

Hello n4gix,

Thanks for the reference.
I guess I should go back and re-watch those DS9 episodes to see how they match up with this description.

- Ivan.

[Panther_99FS]

KILLER 2nd to last episode!!!

[HyFlyer]

Remember.........

[HyFlyer]

[Panther_99FS]

And the conclusion of a truly epic & incredible fan series!!!!



https://vimeo.com/241107969

[Eoraptor1]

"The "Star Trek" name got my attention. The scenes and excerpts from the first two episodes and reviews tell me that I am not interested in finding out more."
So you never actually watched it at all, yet you feel qualified to judge it. How bleeping arrogant. How can you judge a show you never even watched ?
Sue

That, unfortunately, is coin of the realm over much of the internet. It's almost as if knowing what you're talking about is a form of prejudice, when the very word means to pre-judge. Even still, the subject matter here is fairly innocuous, an online fan series. There are people with authority over the lives of thousands very real people who do this very same thing. Those are the people who really scare me.

JAMES

[napacon]

Every Sat Night On "METV " all Original Episodes .. Over and over !

[Eoraptor1]

Every Sat Night On "METV " all Original Episodes .. Over and over !

I have the first two seasons on Blu-Ray, bought from the local Buy and Sell shop. I felt the quality fell way off in the third season, with some exceptions. David Gerrold writes about this at length in The World of Star Trek, using the term "when format becomes formula" which I found applicable to many tv and movie series.

JAMES

[HyFlyer]