Goodbye, farewell, adieu A2A
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Thread: Goodbye, farewell, adieu A2A

  1. #1
    SOH Staff .."Bartender" AussieMan's Avatar
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    Goodbye, farewell, adieu A2A

    Over the years I have invested many hundreds of dollars in A2A products beginning with the original boxed version of the Shockwave Bombers and Jets package, then the Fighters Package through the A2A Accusim aircraft from the Piper Cub up to the COTS B-377. This included their C-172, 182, Piper Cherokee and Comanchee, their series of Warbirds from the pre Accusim days to the actual Accusim aircraft.

    Unlike other developers who charge a modest fee (between $5 and $10) or offer upgrades for free for their P3D V4 upgrades A2A has decided that if you upgrade from FSX you must buy the same A2A aircraft again. And the word is you will also have repurchase their Warbirds if they decide to upgrade them.


    For this reason I have drawn a line in the sand and will move my A2A aircraft to a dark corner of my hangar when I stop using P3D V3.4 and switch to P3D V4 full time. The only one that will stay is the Connie. I am more than happy to pay a small fee for upgrades but not full price.


    Cheers
    Pat


    "Some people might say that freedom is being alone in the bush with the only sounds being the murmurs from the birds ... but I believe freedom is at 5000 feet with no other sound than the engine roaring."- William Hutchison, a young man taken from us far too young (16).

  2. #2
    It's not really an upgrade. They've sold separate licenses and bundles for the platforms for at least three years, nobody griped. Why was there no screaming when people started purchasing P3D v1-3? They didn't offer "upgrades" then either. P3D v4 is no different. If you had purchased the bundles for P3D 3.4 you'd be all set with the current P3D lineup.

    I've driven Fords for decades. I won't walk into a dealership and demand they sell me a newer model for a small fee even if GM and Chrysler were doing so.

    Pat

  3. #3
    Indeed in P3Dv3 the situation is more or less the same: if you had the FSX version of the C172, C182, Cherokee, etc... you had to buy them again in P3D licence, else they would not be updated by the Accusim core update.
    The only A2A FSX planes that could be used in P3D were the old warbirds: Spit, Mustang, P47 etc...

    Now in P3Dv4, if you have the P3D licences for the recent birds like C172, then you get a free updated.
    If you have the FSX version of these birds, you have to buy them again, exactly like if you were using P3Dv3.
    The only difference is for the warbirds. The Spit, Mustang etc... will not be updated for P3Dv4. They will be rebuilt as new models with new features, from what A2A said. This means we'll have to buy them again.

    From my side, it's quite simple:
    - I have the FSX version of the C172, and I'm not buying the P3D licence because that plane is boring as hell and buying it was a big mistake in the first place.
    - I have the P3D version of the Cherokee and the Texan, so I will get the free update to P3Dv4 for these birds.
    - I have the FSX (there is no P3D licences) of the Spit, Mustang, P-40, P-47 and the Cub, and I'll have to buy their new P3Dv4 models when they appear.

  4. #4
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patful View Post
    It's not really an upgrade. They've sold separate licenses and bundles for the platforms for at least three years, nobody griped. Why was there no screaming when people started purchasing P3D v1-3? They didn't offer "upgrades" then either. P3D v4 is no different. If you had purchased the bundles for P3D 3.4 you'd be all set with the current P3D lineup.

    I've driven Fords for decades. I won't walk into a dealership and demand they sell me a newer model for a small fee even if GM and Chrysler were doing so.

    Pat
    Hi Pat, I do understand what you are trying to say here and I partially agree. But when you look at your Fords as the A2A model and FSX and P3D as the roads they take, you will understand what the other Pat tries to tell you. Ford will not force you to buy a new car every time a new road or bridge becomes available.

    But you can wonder who is created this situation, A2A or Lockheed....

    Cheers,
    Huub

  5. #5
    SOH Staff .."Bartender" AussieMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post
    But you can wonder who is created this situation, A2A or Lockheed....

    Cheers,
    Huub
    While LM may have created a problem I don't blame them completely.

    As I said in my post I am happy to pay a small fee of up to $10 but I am not prepared to invest another $250 - $300 for aircraft I already own from A2A. Also the difference between the $A and the $US add about 25-30% to the cost of a purchase.

    Milviz updated their Beaver for free.
    Carenado is doing likewise
    Just Flight are upgrading doing likewise
    Ant's Airplanes are also not charging
    Captain Sim updated their B-777 at no charge.
    iFly updated their B-737 and B-747 for no charge
    F1 updated the GTN 650/750 for a $19 fee but you got the complete system for FSX and P3D and they supplied a coupon to apply the discount.
    ORBX updated their scenery at no cost to current users.

    This is just a short list of developers that I deal with and will keep dealing with them.

    There are several developers offering free updates as well.

    All good PR for them and I will return to purchase from them.


    Cheers
    Pat


    "Some people might say that freedom is being alone in the bush with the only sounds being the murmurs from the birds ... but I believe freedom is at 5000 feet with no other sound than the engine roaring."- William Hutchison, a young man taken from us far too young (16).

  6. #6
    Welcome to the new world of flight sim, where the software changes significantly every 2 years.

    Interesting to me, how many consumers of P3D don't mind paying for a new version of the sim but protest purchasing new versions of the add-ons. Contrast this thread with another from VRS.

    https://forums.vrsimulations.com/for...hp?f=7&t=18200

  7. #7
    SOH-CM-2018 jmig's Avatar
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    I see PD3 V4 as a new sim from the older versions. I saw PD3 V1-V3 as nothing more than polishing, a new coat of paint and a name change. Companies like A2A and VRS that charged extra for a "new" model when PD3 came out, in my opinion, should not be charging much, if any for the upgrade to V4.

    When FSX replaced FS9, I didn't have to repurchase all my aircraft and other add-ons. Most just worked out of the box. (Yes, kids, they came in boxes back then ) The ones that didn't usually only required minor tweaks to work. Companies like A2A and VRS, in my mind, have already charged for PD3.

    As far as A2A is concerned, I have a lot of their products, but I don't fly them much. I find the realism to be unrealistic. Every time I try to fly the Comanche, I have to overhaul it. Never have been able to figure out why and I don't fly it enough to want to put in the effort to figure it out. So, it and the C-182 sit in the hanger as hanger queens. The P-40 I would fly into the ground and crash trying to pump up the landing gear. So, why fly it? I kept burning up engines on the B-337. So, I guess A2a and I aren't a match in heaven.

    Now the VHS F-18 is a must buy, no matter how much they charge. It is simply, in my book, THE most realistic simulated airplane made. However, they made me rebuy it and TacPac when PD3 came out. I will not be happy if I have to re-rebuy the airplane and TacPac.
    John

    ***************************
    My first SIM was a Link Trainer. My last was a T-6 II


    Intel Six Core i7 8700 @ 5.0 GHz
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    Currently using single Optoma 1040P beamer and two touch screen monitors for instruments.

  8. #8
    I guess it is how much you define 'realism'.
    So far the few A2A aircraft I like have crossed over from P3D3 to P3D4 without any apparent issues, but I'm more of kick the tyres and light fires flyer.
    If certain bells and whistles don't work then it bothers me not.
    If I can get airborne and land then I'm fairly happy.

    We mourned the loss of RealAir but I simply transplanted them from P3D3 int D4 (I like experimenting) and I'm happy.

    As for 'TacPac'........ never again!
    Bought it, attempted to use it in the version of P3D it was supposedly sold for only to have it crash and burn!

    John, I never got on with the B377 at all, it was the screaming that got to me as we fell from the sky on a very regular basis!
    "Illegitimum non carborundum".

  9. #9
    For me it is all about making choices. If I want a previously purchased aircraft badly enough for a new sim or version of a sim I purchase. Many times the aircraft has been upgraded from an older version and well worth the partial or full price. A case in point is the Aerosoft Airbus. This is an upgraded version with new code. I definitely understand a price for work done.

    Now my problem with the VRS F-18 is I have the Professional version of P3D. That means to use TacPac I must pay some $2000.00. I can't even purchase the VRS F-18 for P3D Pro. It is only available for the Academic version.

    I guess my point is I look at the individual aircraft or addon carefully to see if I think it is worth the price, just like the new Ford for a new road. Choices Choices. When an upgrade is free I say thank you.
    Regards, Tom Stovall KRDD


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jmig View Post
    I see PD3 V4 as a new sim from the older versions. I saw PD3 V1-V3 as nothing more than polishing, a new coat of paint and a name change. Companies like A2A and VRS that charged extra for a "new" model when PD3 came out, in my opinion, should not be charging much, if any for the upgrade to V4.
    John,

    You and I agree on much, but on this question, I must differ. Especially where VRS is concerned.

    Firstly, consider how an airplane sim developer must initially price a product knowing they have no control (or very little control) over the changes made to the sim platform. As a business person of many years, I will tell you that, if consumers don't want to pay for upgrades, the initial asking price of an addon will be inflated to cover future (and unknown) upgrade costs.

    Secondly, in the case of VRS, so much of the functionality you and I love about their products is based on custom "hooks" directly into the working processes of the sim platform. The short story is, there is no SDK for a lot of what VRS does to make it work and they are directly manipulating working memory of the sim. Each new version, even minor updates, of the sim platform means these "hooks" must all be verified at a minimum and could change significantly, requiring re-coding of parts of the addon. The jump from P3Dv3 to P3Dv4 is extremely significant in this regard. (Side note, VRS did NOT support any version of P3D prior to v3).

    Finally, regards A2A, (full disclosure, I don't have any of their products) they have, from day 1 of P3D, charged full price for different sim platforms. So they should not be a surprise to any previous purchaser of their product.

  11. #11
    SOH-CM-2018 jmig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henrystreet View Post
    John,

    You and I agree on much, but on this question, I must differ. Especially where VRS is concerned.

    Firstly, consider how an airplane sim developer must initially price a product knowing they have no control (or very little control) over the changes made to the sim platform. As a business person of many years, I will tell you that, if consumers don't want to pay for upgrades, the initial asking price of an addon will be inflated to cover future (and unknown) upgrade costs.

    Secondly, in the case of VRS, so much of the functionality you and I love about their products is based on custom "hooks" directly into the working processes of the sim platform. The short story is, there is no SDK for a lot of what VRS does to make it work and they are directly manipulating working memory of the sim. Each new version, even minor updates, of the sim platform means these "hooks" must all be verified at a minimum and could change significantly, requiring re-coding of parts of the addon. The jump from P3Dv3 to P3Dv4 is extremely significant in this regard. (Side note, VRS did NOT support any version of P3D prior to v3).

    Finally, regards A2A, (full disclosure, I don't have any of their products) they have, from day 1 of P3D, charged full price for different sim platforms. So they should not be a surprise to any previous purchaser of their product.
    Henry, You and I agree here more than you may realize. I understand VRS's programming and the need to work around the limitations of the FSX/PD3 engine. If they had not charged me full price or almost full price, I forget which, to upgrade to PD3 V3, I wouldn't mind paying again for PD3 V4.

    I agree, new sim different than the old. However, they already charged me for PD3 and the differences between PD3 and FSX were rather minor. I know the directory format changed, big deal. That was a couple lines of code in the installer telling it to go to the new directory. As evidence of this argument I offer this, just about every FSX and many FS9 add-ons worked out of the box with PD3 V3. All I had to do was point them at the correct folder.

    Secondly, the argument that the extra programming which is needed to convert to V4, is in my belief only partially true. I am a beta pilot for Milviz. Milviz has done the exact same thing with their aircraft. Much of it is dll coding that works around and outside of PD3. They aren't charging extra. They wanted to charge $5 and the uproar and outcry was deafening. I can assure you that they are doing a lot of reprogramming to get these aircraft to work in V4, AT NO CHARGE. REX is doing the same thing, as are many other developers. If they come out and charge $10-15 dollars for the combined upgrade, no big deal. But, if they want full price or close to it, this boy won't be happy with them. It will make three times I will have to pay for the same aircraft. Heck, I bet Boeing doesn't make that much from the Navy.
    John

    ***************************
    My first SIM was a Link Trainer. My last was a T-6 II


    Intel Six Core i7 8700 @ 5.0 GHz
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    Currently using single Optoma 1040P beamer and two touch screen monitors for instruments.

  12. #12
    SOH-CM-2018 jmig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stovall View Post
    For me it is all about making choices. If I want a previously purchased aircraft badly enough for a new sim or version of a sim I purchase. Many times the aircraft has been upgraded from an older version and well worth the partial or full price. A case in point is the Aerosoft Airbus. This is an upgraded version with new code. I definitely understand a price for work done.

    Now my problem with the VRS F-18 is I have the Professional version of P3D. That means to use TacPac I must pay some $2000.00. I can't even purchase the VRS F-18 for P3D Pro. It is only available for the Academic version.

    I guess my point is I look at the individual aircraft or addon carefully to see if I think it is worth the price, just like the new Ford for a new road. Choices Choices. When an upgrade is free I say thank you.
    I too by rights should be buying the Professional version. I would if it wasn't for VRS decision to only offer their products only to the Academic version. I wonder how many other people like me were put into this moral quandary between buying the Academic version over the Pro version because of VRS's decision. Fortunately for me, I was able to legally and morally get around the conundrum. As an IP for the Virtual Flight Academy I fall under the Academic guidelines.
    John

    ***************************
    My first SIM was a Link Trainer. My last was a T-6 II


    Intel Six Core i7 8700 @ 5.0 GHz
    16 GB DDR4 RAM
    2 Intel SSD 500 GB SATA 3 Drives and 1 950 GB SSD for PD3 V4
    2 GTX 970 4 GB RAM Video Cards
    IR Track 5
    Currently using single Optoma 1040P beamer and two touch screen monitors for instruments.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by AussieMan View Post
    Over the years I have invested many hundreds of dollars in A2A products beginning with the original boxed version of the Shockwave Bombers and Jets package, then the Fighters Package through the A2A Accusim aircraft from the Piper Cub up to the COTS B-377. This included their C-172, 182, Piper Cherokee and Comanchee, their series of Warbirds from the pre Accusim days to the actual Accusim aircraft.

    Unlike other developers who charge a modest fee (between $5 and $10) or offer upgrades for free for their P3D V4 upgrades A2A has decided that if you upgrade from FSX you must buy the same A2A aircraft again. And the word is you will also have repurchase their Warbirds if they decide to upgrade them.


    For this reason I have drawn a line in the sand and will move my A2A aircraft to a dark corner of my hangar when I stop using P3D V3.4 and switch to P3D V4 full time. The only one that will stay is the Connie. I am more than happy to pay a small fee for upgrades but not full price.
    I am in the same boat I think, so much so that I am thinking about just using what I have and not buying anything else in the future.
    Intel I7 8700 16gb DDR4 RAM GTX 1060 3GB with Windows 10

  14. #14
    The latest from VRS on this very subject. And just as valid a business model as any espoused as comfortable in this thread. As Tom said, we will all make our choices, including the developers. If there is no profit from their labor, they will, quite understandably, leave the marketplace.

    https://forums.vrsimulations.com/for...art=30#p120107

  15. #15
    Just thinking aloud here. Pro is the same sim as Academic . If you have Pro and a clear conscience, well is there anything that VRS says that disallows the Bug from being used in Pro ? Maybe they do not care and gave Pro a miss for some other reason . I guess there will be no support for it but for some that wouldn't matter. Just thinking.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by greenie View Post
    Just thinking aloud here. Pro is the same sim as Academic . If you have Pro and a clear conscience, well is there anything that VRS says that disallows the Bug from being used in Pro ? Maybe they do not care and gave Pro a miss for some other reason . I guess there will be no support for it but for some that wouldn't matter. Just thinking.
    VRS's decision was based on the same logic that A2A and PMDG used for their products. It was based on legal advice about LM's licensing for Academic and Professional. For more detailed information, check the PMDG support forums at Avsim.

    You will notice that A2A support Professional version, just like VRS does, with a much higher initial product cost. The main difference is that A2A makes their pricing public and on their website. VRS prefers to make those sales 1 on 1 with the buyers.

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