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  1. #26
    WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.

    The author of a malicious attack can use multiple tools to access secure systems. Vault 7 was a treasure trove of tools and techniques that are now widely distributed and used by third party, dark contractors.

    The Win10, and previous EULA contracts inform the user that MS is free to sell your data to any and all entities whom may find your data valuable. The sale of your data runs the gamut from corporate clients to the various "agencies". Once remotely located, any proficient hacker can access your data.

    In the case of one specific organization with access to top secret data, the trails to the "data" were protected with ridiculously shallow passwords like "password" on remote servers. When this reckless approach is utilized at multiple levels, the entire system becomes transparent and is monetized through black and gray markets on the wholesale level. It is ubiquitous.

    Lately, DOS attacks have been the favored tool of various entities to gain advantage over websites and individuals whom are targeted for various reasons. If, for instance I, were a client of one of these targeted entities, I am immediately vulnerable to those same pressures...and have been in the recent past.

    This is a reality that must be considered with serious attention to one's personal security.

    I have, by necessity, remained "plugged in" in order to prepare a viable product for the market place. Therefore, I remain vulnerable. This is why I consider the MS "security updates" to be more in the area of a hack, than a legitimate effort to protect my data. The concept, on it's face, is laughable.

    IMO
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #27
    You can never make anything foolproof because fools are so smart. Or stoopid.
    Tom
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    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman5250 View Post
    WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.


    The Win10, and previous EULA contracts inform the user that MS is free to sell your data to any and all entities whom may find your data valuable. The sale of your data runs the gamut from corporate clients to the various "agencies". Once remotely located, any proficient hacker can access your data.



    IMO
    This is real tin foil hat stuff. Nowhere does it say that MS is free to sell your data.

    A simple google takes you to >>>
    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Uset...10_English.htm

    & to>>>>
    https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

    Keep that hat polished!

  4. #29
    Just my view, from a post I made on the NZFF Forum:
    "I have no intention of installing Win10 - I can't afford the theft of bandwidth caused by MS, and Steam, who both expect to barge into my machine whenever they feel like it by pushing "updates" which I neither need nor want and have no choice about accepting. So for the moment I will be staying with Win7, and whatever sim I can run in that. I don't think I am alone in making that choice."

    Just to clarify, here in Oz I pay AUD70/mth for 20GB. If I exceed that, there is an automatic charge of AUD10/GB, unless I see it coming and get in first, which is also costly but less so. In any case, there is no way in the world I will allow total strangers free access to my home network - not the Uni students across the street (which is why my network is wired,not WiFi), not MS or Steam because they have no idea how my machines are setup, but just change everything to what they think I should have, just to make their software work. Why should I accept that?
    MikeW

  5. #30
    SOH Staff .."Bartender" AussieMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emfrat View Post
    Just to clarify, here in Oz I pay AUD70/mth for 20GB. If I exceed that, there is an automatic charge of AUD10/GB, unless I see it coming and get in first, which is also costly but less so. In any case, there is no way in the world I will allow total strangers free access to my home network - not the Uni students across the street (which is why my network is wired,not WiFi), not MS or Steam because they have no idea how my machines are setup, but just change everything to what they think I should have, just to make their software work. Why should I accept that?MikeW
    Who is your ISP MIke? I think you are getting ripped big time. I am with BigPond and I am paying $90 a month for 1TB. If by any chance I go over that I get throttled back to 256KB. My son and I use this account on a network and we are lucky if we use 500GB a month.I also use W10 and have been since the early Alpha releases and have no problems with updates. I get a notification about updates and can choose to uninstall any updates I don't want


    Cheers
    Pat


    "Some people might say that freedom is being alone in the bush with the only sounds being the murmurs from the birds ... but I believe freedom is at 5000 feet with no other sound than the engine roaring."- William Hutchison, a young man taken from us far too young (16).

  6. #31
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    "I have no intention of installing Win10 - I can't afford the theft of bandwidth caused by MS, and Steam, who both expect to barge into my machine whenever they feel like it by pushing "updates" which I neither need nor want and have no choice about accepting. So for the moment I will be staying with Win7, and whatever sim I can run in that. I don't think I am alone in making that choice."

    Does nobody ever update Windows 7??? You ARE aware of the following previous post.
    "WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.

    The author of a malicious attack can use multiple tools to access secure systems. Vault 7 was a treasure trove of tools and techniques that are now widely distributed and used by third party, dark contractors.' & MS has just released an update for that. Are you going to leave your W7 machine vulnerable by not accepting that update?

    You may not want it, BUT you NEED that one, and any other security update for older, more vulnerable operating systems. (such as yours)

    So, the only real difference between W10 & older OS's, is that W10 updates for you automatically, whereas, before, you had to click OK every time, & I'm sure that everyone with W7 always kept the OS updated.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by zswobbie1 View Post
    This is real tin foil hat stuff. Nowhere does it say that MS is free to sell your data.

    A simple google takes you to >>>
    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Uset...10_English.htm

    & to>>>>
    https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

    Keep that hat polished!
    My hat, and how I wear it are none of your concern sir. Keep your insults to your self and grow up.

    Your problem is that you do a "simple Google search" and attempt to support your rude behavior with an uninformed reading of the privacy terms.
    By the way...Google is a proper name. It should be capitalized.

    With regard to capitalization. The privacy statement, which is referenced in the EULA, details in clever and utterly ambiguous language "We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf".

    What, exactly do you believe is implied in that language sir?
    The contract, in its entirety, is full of such language that grants MS the right to do with your data as they wish or feel "necessary". Compounding the liberal application of vague language is the notoriously transparent "security" employed by Cortana and other MS, and affiliate apps.

    The fact that your data is "shared" with affiliates, subsidiaries and vendors should tell you that your data is being monetized. That is what affiliates, subsidiaries and vendors do. MS is telling you, directly, their intention and thus indemnifying themselves against lawful remedy by the party who agreed to their terms.


    I am not remotely concerned with how you conduct your affairs, your world view, nor your opinion of me.

    This is a respectable and honorable forum where adults share their views, opinions and commentary. It would benefit you, sir, to learn how to conduct yourself with respect to the contract you agreed upon when joining SOH.

    It would also benefit you to learn how to read, interpret and comprehend a commercial, maritime contract.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

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  8. #33

    Hands off my rig, it's mine

    Funny how personal the reactions to computer problems can be. I can be just as shirty as anyone when something doesn't go right or a software update grinds the rig to a crawl for all of 35 seconds. HEY! I WANNA DO STUFF! GET LOST, CAN'T YOU! Blasted popups, please fill in this survey after buying tortilla chips online from Lug-a-Load dot com twice in four years... NO! GO AWAY!

    Really, it's no better than road rage: we've all done it, not only do I own the road, it was my father's before me; or each and every truck is out to Get Me, help help.

    The only answer is to make tea, go outside, breathe fresh air and imagine what particular segment of the seventh circle of Hell will be reserved for the real criminals, not the poor stiffs trying to make that vast software project called Windows run trouble-free.
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  9. #34
    Seems the last few posts are getting a bit personal. Please keep the comments about the title and not each other.
    Regards, Tom Stovall, KRDD


  10. #35
    After the latest windows 10 update, my FSDS stopped working, it says directx z-buffer issue and cannot load 3d model views etc and program closes, all drivers and directX files are updated, still not work. So i rollback earlier version of Windows 10 and all works fine.

  11. #36
    No personal remarks intended Tom, just trying to make a general observation about our PCs and our personal space as we tend to see it. If anyone thinks I'm getting at them, please accept my sincere apologies: mea culpa.
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  12. #37
    Interesting debate.

    I'll throw this into the ring to be shot to pieces.
    The Windows 7 privacy statement appears to have little to distinguish it from the Windows 10 privacy statement.



    • Windows 7
    • In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf. Only companies who have a business need to use the information are provided access to them. These companies are required to keep this information confidential and are prohibited from using it for any other purpose.
    • Windows 10
    • We may share or disclose information about you with other Microsoft controlled subsidiaries and affiliates, and with vendors or agents working on our behalf. For example, companies we've hired to provide customer service support or assist in protecting and securing our systems and services may need access to personal information in order to provide those functions. In such cases, these companies must abide by our data privacy requirements and are not allowed to use the information for any other purpose. We may also disclose information about you as part of a corporate transaction such as a merger or sale of assets.
    Regards,
    Nick

  13. #38
    In the spirt of a gentlemanly debate:

    I focused on the term "share" in my comment above.

    Under maritime law, which governs all commercial contracts, the use of language and it's definitions are to be observed and understood. In an administrative court, the bench will interpret the language based solely upon codified definitions. Blacks Law is a commonly accepted reference in regards to these definitions.

    Blacks Law:

    SHARE
    A portion of anything. When a whole is divided into shares, they are not necessarily equal. In the law of corporations and joint-stock companies, a share is a definite portion of the capital of a company.

    Law Dictionary: S Information and Definitions from Black's Law Dictionary


    In contract, the legal definition of a word determines the intention of the text. In the case of the MS Terms of Use and Privacy statement, the use of the word share takes on an entirely different meaning than a casual reading of the text may suggest.

    In my day to day transactions, I take every precaution to avoid contracting in the commercial for exactly these reasons. There are, however, times when that becomes impossible...thus operating in commerce with Microsoft. An unfortunate and dis-tasteful reality, considering that there are virtually no alternatives available in the marketplace.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

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  14. #39
    Even more interesting.

    The Blacks Law definition is of a noun.
    The privacy agreement appears to be using a verb.

    To "share"in the context used by Microsoft means to make available.
    To "provide", as used in the Windows 7 excerpt, also means to make available.

    The use of the term "share" when the meaning is "tell" or "give" or "provide"
    is one that has emanated from American English and seems to be present
    everywhere.

    When I was taught English at school in the late 1950's and early 1960's, the verb
    "share" meant to give some of what one had to someone else, or receive a part
    of what they had.
    "Give" meant to transfer something at no cost to someone else with no implicit
    expectation of its return.
    "Provide" was to supply something, also with no implicit expectation of its return
    but to include a possible cost.

    For this reason, I have understood each of those parts of the two privacy statements
    to mean the same thing.
    I may not be correct of course.
    Regards,
    Nick

  15. #40
    Here's the interesting bit Nick,

    The only reference to "share" in Black Law Dictionary that alludes to the verb is defined as


    SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE
    a term that applies to the equal share or the equal proportions.



    Every other use of the word is a derivative of the noun. In a court of record, where would the bench find codified use of the verb, and how would it be applied?. At the discretion of the court would be the obvious answer, leaving the interpretation up to the court.

    I haven't looked for any rulings in this area, but it would be an interesting study.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i7-4960X 3.6GHz Ivy Bridge w/Corsair H100i Extreme Performance CPU Cooler | Asus Sabertooth X79 LGA 2011 Motherboard | CORSAIR Professional Series 1050W Mushkin Redline 16GB DDR3 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti SC2, 11G-P4-6593-KR, 11GB GDDR5X| Mushkin Chronos 240GB SSD | Western Digital Black 2TB 7200 RPM | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  16. #41
    I think you are quite right, as the meaning of the verb "share" has evolved,
    a new definition probably is required.
    "Disclose", however is far less ambiguous.
    Regards,
    Nick

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by AussieMan View Post
    Who is your ISP MIke?
    My daily usage rarely exceeds 500MB, so 20GB/mth is heaps. I run on 4G Mobile Broadband (wireless) which lets me move around as I please, and Telstra has the best 4G coverage. I got rid of my landline years ago.

    ATB
    MikeW.

  18. #43
    gman & Nick

    Firstly I am NOT a lawyer so my interpretation of EULA is as a layman. Just wanted to give my take on the two agreements you have quoted above.

    Win 7. Microsoft states that "In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf."
    In this statement Microsoft makes no reference to you or your data. They merely state that they occasionally provide information to others. This could be interpreted to mean your information but is not implicit in the statement. Some ambiguity exists.

    Win10. "We may share or disclose information about you with other Microsoft controlled subsidiaries and affiliates, and with vendors or agents working on our behalf."

    However for Win10 they explicitly state that they may share or disclose YOUR information. This is very explicit and I take from this that they will do this. By using their software you are giving them your personal data to do with as they please. The example they give does not limit what they do with the data or what data they take. It is a simple reference case and anyway why would a company providing security services need my personal information. Microsoft do not provide me a personal service based solely on my setup or data. In my opinion they are data mining. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the end use of that data.

    This is my interpretation of the two EULA's. I am comfortable with the Win7 one but the Win10 one sets alarms bells ringing in my ears.

    Regards
    Paul

  19. #44
    I think that he Windows 7 statement "In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf."
    has to be read in the context of this:


    • Certain Windows 7 features may ask you for permission to collect or use your personal information. Additional information about these features and how they use your personal information is described in the full Windows 7 Privacy Statement.
    • We use the information collected to enable the features you are using or provide the services you request. We also use it to improve our products and services. In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf. Only companies who have a business need to use the information are provided access to them. These companies are required to keep this information confidential and are prohibited from using it for any other purpose.
    Regards,
    Nick

  20. #45
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    Your problem is that you do a "simple Google search" and attempt to support your rude behavior with an uninformed reading of the privacy terms.
    By the way...Google is a proper name. It should be capitalized.

    a Simple Google/google finds this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_(verb))
    ... "As a result of the increasing popularity and dominance of the Google search engine,[1] usage of the transitive verb[2] to google (also spelled Google) grew ubiquitously."

    Anyhow.. I do apologise for upsetting anyone, I certainly did not expect to be called uninformed.
    At the end of the day, we all must take own responsibility with what operating system we prefer.
    We are, or should be aware of the constant malware/virus attacks, especially on older operating systems. Thankfully, MS is providing patches for those now.
    We should be cognisant as well, that newer software releases do take advantage of more updated operating systems as well.
    We should also be aware that there are software 'bots' that tend to track our google (verb) searches whenever we use Google (noun), Bing, or any other search engines, & will often give us suggestions based on whatever we have searched/googled. (I quite enjoy this feature)

    Tracking is certainly not new. Google knows a lot more about us than we realise.. Our GPS tracks us.. One wonders what they actually do with that information (I wonder how interesting my toilet habits are to them)

    Google Maps (yes, I do have it on my mobile phone).. You can actually get a timeline of your daily movement & locations.

    Yes, modern technology & software is great, & I rather have the latest, updated operating system that protects me against worms, malware or anything else.

    (Still cannot find 'sell' in any EULA so far)

    Once again, I do apologise for mentioning tin hats, & it's Tea time for me.



  21. #46
    Hi Nick

    Agreed. However my statement still stands I think. The full Win7 statement still does not implicitly say that the information they may share with other affiliates will be your personal information. The implication could be interpreted from the preceding statement but it is not explicit. And it also states that the features will ask your permission to collect and share the data. My interpretation of this statement is that I can say no. The Win10 statement on the other hand is very explicit about sharing your information. I don't remember Win10 ever asking my permission to take my information and giving me the option to decline with no penalty.

    Zswobbie1. You do realise that operating systems don't protect you from virus' and malware until after the fact don't you. So they are in fact continually playing catchup. In fact the latest and "greatest" is likely to be extremely buggy and full of holes that can be exploited. It's the nature of modern software releases to do the testing with 200million+ users. Older operating systems tend to be far less vulnerable as they have had most of their "holes" plugged. Yes I know they can still be vulnerable to some newer types of threat but generally the vendor will supply a security patch if the system isn't too old, so Win7 got patched for the Wannacry bug.

    Regards
    Paul

  22. #47
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    Yup, I should have added updated anti virus in that sentence as well, so I am protected as much as I can be.
    Have a look here..
    http://www.infoworld.com/article/304...indows-10.html

    Somehow, on my 5 year old i5 4GB RAM laptop, my simming seems to run slightly faster & smoother now than it did, before I updated from Windows 7. (P3D & 3x FS2004 versions)

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by zswobbie1 View Post
    (Still cannot find 'sell' in any EULA so far)

    Once again, I do apologise for mentioning tin hats, & it's Tea time for me.


    You have my apology also sir...and thank you. I'll extend my apology to admin whom, by now, are accustomed to my occasional eruptions and continue to tolerate my presence on this forum.


    Nick and Paul, this rather innocuous thread has evolved into an investigation into the minutia of language. It is a fine topic and worthy of the time invested in its exploration.
    To be clear, I am not a lawyer nor a law scholar. My limited knowledge in these matters is based upon the modicum of understanding I have acquired through my own personal investigations.

    I'll use the use of the word "sell" as a example, since it has been the focus of this discussion.

    I quoted Blacks Law Dictionary in my earlier reference. While the volumes are not considered law, they are agreed upon to be the language of the BAR. Entering a courtroom without understanding the court's specific language can be compared to traveling to a mysterious country, armed only with the language of your own land. Things can go nuclear in a hurry.

    zswobbie1. You point out, correctly, that the world sell is not utilized in the EULA. The use of the noun "share", as defined by Blacks Law, may (another incredibly important term) be interpreted by the bench to read ..." In the law of corporations and joint-stock companies, a share is a definite portion of the capital of a company."

    At this point, the term no longer acts as the verb, as Nick has interpreted the word. The context favors the noun, a portion of capital. When MS says they "may share" your information (data), are they saying that they might or might not allow an affiliate to view your phone number, or are they saying "Hey...we have permission from the bench to monetize everything about you and distribute it amongst ourselves. And by the way, if we profit in the boot...that's OK too."?

    The ambiguity of the language, and it's intended use is deliberate. The obfuscation of the intent has been constructed in such a manner that allows the corporate entity to operate, so long as they remain within the boundaries of the contract that you entered into with them.

    This is why I said they sell your data.

    Further exploration of the verbiage, literally every word, is an illuminating experience.

    When I used the word "uninformed", my intent may or may not have been to insult you, but the context indicated that my intent was to cause harm.
    In reality, I may have used the word in the context of "Agnostic", which translates "ignorant" (an insult), but in the original Greek it is simply "not knowing".

    Again, it's the language. I intend "not knowing"...you hear "ignorant". We go to court to hash out the damage and the "bench" (actually "bank") decides whom to award damages.
    At the end of the day...it's always about the money.

    IMO
    Last edited by gman5250; June 20th, 2017 at 07:26.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i7-4960X 3.6GHz Ivy Bridge w/Corsair H100i Extreme Performance CPU Cooler | Asus Sabertooth X79 LGA 2011 Motherboard | CORSAIR Professional Series 1050W Mushkin Redline 16GB DDR3 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti SC2, 11G-P4-6593-KR, 11GB GDDR5X| Mushkin Chronos 240GB SSD | Western Digital Black 2TB 7200 RPM | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  24. #49
    This is exactly why I left this thread open. Gordon, I have come to know you pretty well. I describe you as passionate. As for HairySpin nothing directed at you and zszombie1 a class act to offer apologies. Another reason for leaving the thread open is there is some really good comments here. I always learn something from you guys.

    Good job everyone.

    Tom
    Regards, Tom Stovall, KRDD


  25. #50
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    A tip of my hat to you, Tom.
    Sometimes, we do tend to get a bit passionate at times, it's so quick to type out something that, in retrospect, could be taken amiss, &, I'm sure, we appreciate the leeway & understanding that we get here.

    Cheers, Robin.

    PS.... zszombie1? I like that!

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