Lockheed Electra Model 10

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Yes, thanks a lot!
That´s just about what I was trying to get.
Moreover: Now I see what you meant about the rear part of the nacelle being unfinished.

I had aligned the top part of the nacelle at the back to slant down towards the wrong inner wing profile! I hadn´t been able to compile it again, so I didn´t notice the flaw. I´m so sorry. It should slant down further so that the rear of the nacelle disappears inside the wing or at least aligns with the wing surface. I will have to re-shape the bulkheads, but that should be no problem.
I´ve just made the three last nacelle bulkheads a bit smaller, and it should be OK.

What shall we do?
Do you want to send me what you´ve got and I´ll make the correction on the bulkheads to "bend" the rear part of the nacelle into position? That will probably be easier than me sending you the model files with the corrected bulkheads, because you´d have to repeat the work you´ve done on them.

The next step will then be the outer wing, and fitting the vertices to the outer part of the nacelle.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

what a piss off!!!
i just wrote a long winded explanation
about the wing to nacelle build process
and the damned thing went away.

can someone please tell me
how to retrieve auto save text?

this is not the first time this has happened.
i'm more than a little irritated
and need to walk away.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
I´m sorry this is being so aggravating.
To lose a lengthy message has sometimes happened to me too, and it is very frustrating indeed.

Update:
In view of the success you have demonstrated, it has become clear that it IS indeed possible to do!
So, I am repeating the steps you mentioned before for the simpler Fuselage-Innerwing joint.

Now I´m trying the system again for the nacelle-innerwing joint.
The problem was that I couldn´t identify the nacelle panels that were being asked for the last time I tried this.

OK: For the moment, I have made all the additional nacelle templates, coinciding with lines of the panels on the inner wing.
So this should now make it possible to put in the intersect vertices so that the innerwing panels fit flush with the nacelle-side.

I´ll see how it goes...

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

okay, my blood pressure has gone down.
...a little.

be forewarned, this is a convoluted
and very tedious process,
BUT, it becomes easier,
once you get the hang of it.

as always, these are just my opinions;
if it was my project,
i would build a complete wing,
with no breaks from fuselage center to tip.
save it untouched for a solid reference base.
second, i would have the nacelle completed
before starting on the wing intersection process.
build plenty of nacelle templates.
at least, one for each chord vertices.
more if necessary for nacelle shaping
and have them laid out in order
from forward to aft for ease of cycling through for editing.
instead of jumping around trying to find the right one.

i have some tips for finding the intersection,
but, am afraid to write too much.
who knows when everything will go away again?
let me know if you're interested.

[smilo]

ps...if you have time,
would you please send
a completed nacelle
and a full wing?
thanks in advance.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
OK, I moved the outer edge of the inner-wing outwards, to make a whole wing out of it, positioning an sizing it correctly.
The wingtip would be the only missing bit on the wing now.
The engine and nacelle body is hopefully now also shaped correctly, so as to fit into the wing.
I´ve just e-mailed the model files to you, and here´s a blueprint screenshot.
I hope it is what you were asking for!
Cheers, and thanks very much again for your assistance!
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

yes, thank you, Stephan,
it would appear to be,
exactly what i was asking for.
(careful what you wish for, smilo...)

this should keep me busy for a bit.
but first, a cup of coffee or two.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Actually, in AF99 this is the most difficult part because the whole wing and nacelle has to be made with components, i.e. individual parts by hand, and as it appears, it is not as straight forward as one could imagine in AD2K either.
Hopefully it will not be too much of a hassle for you!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

as far as i can tell,
it is straight forward with ad2k,
IF you are willing to accept,
at best, a marginal wing profile.
clearly, i am not and, therefore,
am willing to do the hand work.

i also see this as an opportunity
to delve into the intersection process
which i had problems with in the past.
(probably, my lack of patience)
who knows, i may find something
that will work for us in the future.
suffice to say, i have a few ideas.

[No Dice]

Between the two of Ya'll, I can not wait to see this MASTER PIECE,

I salute you both,

Dave

[aleatorylamp]

Hello NoDice,
Thanks for your moral support! With a bit of time we should be able to come up with a decent model!

Hello Smilo,
With combined effort on the difficult parts to get more than the available default-shape options, I´m sure we´ll get there - as I said, there´s no hurry anyway!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

minor news flash....
after many days of failed attempts,
i was just able to use the chain editor
intersection feature sucessfully...twice.

i am now trying to remember
and accurately document
the steps for future reference.

as i see it, this is a major breakthrough,
as a time saver, accuracy enhancement,
and all around, frustration reducer.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
That definitely sounds like great, all-round success in the
business, and I´m looking forward to seeing the results!
I´ve been rather busy with different things and haven´t
advanced with the Electra, but will resume soon.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp.

[smilo]

it's been very busy here, too,
but, needed a diversion,
so, i took the time to experiment
and finally found the solution.
it's, actually, quite easy,
once one gets the hang of it.
still haven't documented the process.
figured it best to have the steps
down pat before trying to explain it.
am currently working on the lower aft
nacelle to wing transition...fun.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
That sounds fascinating.
Good job! I must congratulate you on your patience.
It seems that some of the things that AD2K is good at, are not explained very well - if at all - in the help file.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

i concur, but, can't help but wonder
if something was lost in translation.
actually, it's all there in the help file
index under intersection (chain).
clear as mud.


and thank you for the patience compliment,
or should it be persistence?.
see my signature for the truth of the matter

now, if we could only figure out
how to build a decent wing template.
things would be so much easier.

onward through the fog....

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Your question on a decent wing template:
The one I´m using has 11 sides. If it there be more, the existing one can always be altered, or do you mean the pre-fab templates to be used as wing templates? Of course it would be great to be able to alter those 3 in a different way than manually changing and adding panels after the wing is built. In AD2K2 they increased the available selection by quite a few.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

gosh, Stephan, i hope i haven't offended you.
your wing template is fine.
it's just not a template in the ad2k sense of the word.

for example, in ad2k Template menu, select New Class.
select Profile and build one at 00, 00, 00
next, in the Template menu, select Copy template
and build a copy at, say 05, 00, 00
copy another to say, 08, 00, 00

now, for the cool part....
in the Template menu, select, Edit Template,
find the 05, 00, 00 template and click 'tie',
make 00, 00, 00 and 08, 00, 00 parent templates.
don't forget to click all the 'align options:' boxes, confirm and okay.

are you still with me?
just for fun, edit the 08, 00, 00 template
'height; and width;' to a smaller size,
confirm and save.

now, for the really cool part,
look at the 05, 00, 00 template.
it has automatically been resized.
change the location of one of the parents,
and 05, 00, 00 automatically adjusts alignment.
move 05, 00, 00 closer to one of the parents,
it's size automatically adjusts.

this little feature makes, say,
wing to nacelle or wing to fuselage alignment
one hell of a lot easier to accomplish.
not to mention it makes fine tuning
just the wing alignment easier,
instead of the hours required
to do it all by hand....yes, i'm slow.

but, you already knew that, right?

as for the ad2k2 wing profile templates,
i guess i haven't installed ad2k2.
do you know if cfs models can be built with it?
i've just downloaded it from the freeflight site.
guess i'll take the time to answer my own question.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
OK, not to worry - I understood your comment correctly then! I´m just about to study your post in greater depth, to check up on your point about profile templates.

Update: OK, I´ve just done it. It´s very easy to define a basic wing profile template, copy two others to go along the wing, then re-shape and re-position the outer one, to get a correctly shaped wing. Then, aligning parent templates to straight longitudinal and vertical fuselage and nacelle walls is also very easy and quick, and won´t need vertice adjustments.
But, if fuselage and nacelles are curved, this simple alignment system would be less exact.

As regards the Ad2k2 thing you mentioned at the end of your post: I´m afraid model files made with that, lack certain things needed by CFS1 for its aircraft.

Also, unfortunately, AD2k does not recognize anything made with AD2k2, so it is impossible to use its more complete features to build parts for AD2k. Too bad!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

interesting you should mention
using basic wing profile templates,
then, adding or modifying points.
i was thinking the same thing.
the trick will be figuring out
the proper vertices locations
and angles between them
when constructing the base template.

i've been working on that.
no success, yet...still working.
the problem is figuring out
the vertices angles on the hand drawn chord profile,
then, transferring those angles and vertices
to the wing profile template being constructed.

about curved nacelles and fuselage;
as i see it, this is where the parent,
movable "child" template concept,
in conjunction with intersections,
really comes into play.
i could be wrong, but, if your want fillets,
they can be built automatically,
using the template intersection feature.
were as, if you want a non flaring joint,
like on the L-10, chain intersections are in order.
of course, if you want to intersect templates,
you will need a quality wing profile template.
there's the rub...isn't it?

[smilo]

hello Stephan...just to let you know,
progress is being made, but,
as yet, still no sequencing.
wing panel lines to nacelle template
intersecting points are,
for the most part, completed.

no, the extreme aft sections are not done.
but, they're close.


would you, please, send me
complete side and top view
nacelle profiles, so i can add
aft nacelle templates
and finish the transition.
no need to send templates.
just flat side and top view chains
are all i really need to figure out
exactly where the the aft nacelle
is covered by the upper and lower wing panels.

thanks in advance

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Thank you once again for your efforts!
I´ve e-mailed the top and side view drawings to you. They will be better resolution than the atatched pic, and I hope they are good enough.
The aft part of the nacelle merges with the wing about half way along the chord. From the available drawings it is not very easy to see exactly, but I have drawn the lines that would correspond to the nacelle profile, marking the point at which the top and the bottom join with the wing profile, 2.25 ft aft of the point I marked as Centre of Gravity.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

right, thank you very much.
the email has been received.
the top down view is especially helpful.
i wasn't aware of the extra curvature
in the forward nacelle.
it's very art deco...cool.

i'll make the appropriate changes
to the nacelle template sizes.
of course this means the wing to nacelle
intersection points will change.
but, what the hell, live and learn.
and if you don't learn,
do it over until you do.

i'll also reshape the aft nacelle,
from the current chop off at -2.25,
to a nice tapered curve coming to a point
and merging with the wing panel at -2.25.

would you mind if i played
with the chord profile,
maybe, just a little a bit?
nothing too drastic,
just adding a few more vertices
to give it a little more curve and flow.

i figure, what the hell?
since i'll, basically, be starting over,
why not make it pretty?

sure wish i had a bottom up view,
but, we can't have everything.

have a great weekend



ps...apparently, i'm getting into this.
way to go, Stephan, thanks.
at least, i'm not watching so much tv.

[smilo]

WHAT A DUNCE, I AM!!!

i was so enamored by the beautiful curves
of the nacelle/wing top down view,
i spent several hours, last evening,
doing my best, readjusting templates
to duplicate those curves,
completely forgetting what i was looking at.

those curves are NOT the shape of the nacelle.
they are merely the outline of the wing
where it intersects with the nacelle
that is protruding through it.

good luck duplicating that, sport.

the nacelle profile templates
will have to be a much smoother rounds,
with, say, 26 vertices...the ad2k maximum.
the wing profile will also have to be
much smoother with many more vertices.
much more like the wing profile in the side view.

yikes...now, there's a project to consider.
it's 02:10 am.
i should go back to bed
and continue dreaming.
who knows, maybe i can dream up
a viable compromise.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
That blueprint looks very intriguing!

Of course you can increase the vertices to make the shape rounder.
That would also be great, thank you very much!

I have found no bottom-view drawing or photos showing details of the
nacelle shape and the tucked-in wheel, so I suppose we will have
no other alternative but to deduce from the side-view.

Have a nice weekend too. We are having another heat wave here...
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp