Flight sim world (dovetail games) caveat emptor

[BendyFlyer]

There was a very interesting post on the AVSIM site yesterday concerning PMDG and Dovetail Games, I urge all FSX users to read this post. I was unaware that MS had sold the rights to develop FSX to both Lockheed Martin and Dovetail Games. Lockheed Martin have produced P3D (with relevant restrictions) and Dovetail Games are about to release FLIGHT SIM WORLD which is a 64 bit version of FSX, upgraded and much modified in terms of user interface (or so it seems). Now while the arrival at last with a proper 64 bit platform for flight sim is more than welcome for a lot or reasons how it is going to work is very troubling. PMDG have made clear that they were involved with a lot of other developers (Flight1, Just Flight, etc) in discussions to be able to match and place product for this platform as per the current market place system, that is you have the models, addons etc and you can drop them in to the existing sim generally trouble free etc. PMDG also are up front in stating they were part of a consortium to buy FSX from MS but lost out to Dovetail Games.

The message from PMDG is that this will not happen and addons will be controlled by Dovetail and can only be approved and sold via Dovetail for the new 64 bit program. PMDG basically claim that this will kill off the developer community (payware and freeware). The marketing and distribution will be ala FS Steam and it looks like they are going to go down the copy/license route. PMDG have claimed that basically Dovetail Games have been dishonest and unethical in their dealings with PMDG (and probably others) by originally saying yes we will provide access or allow the addons to be sold independently but now have said no, it will be via Dovetail only, so if you believe that this new 64 bit version of Flight Sim is the next generation of Flight Sim your going to have a annual license charge and you will only be able to addon stuff via Dovetail. Now I understand why PMDG went down the X-Plane route with the DC-6 in the light of the above it makes sense to have considered their options and future viability

Read the post by the head of PMDG and draw your own conclusions.

X-Plane is looking better and better by the day as a replacement for FSX but alas how to get FSX stuff particularly older models into X-Plane.

[griphos]

Which post are you referring to? Your characterization of the conversation, however accurate it may be, seems a bit off in some ways. For instance, I have heard nowhere else about any annual license and find that hard to believe. DTG has never used that model for any of its simulations.

You must be talking about the op-ed piece by Randazzo. First, it's a bit all over the place. Second, it betrays some lack of understanding about how STEAM works. Steam is not DTG's revenue channel. STEAM is the gorilla in the room, not DTG. STEAM takes its bite out of DTG the same as anyone else selling through STEAM. I've seen nothing that supports your interpretation that developers can ONLY sell through DTG/STEAM.

And he's only giving one side of a story that he is largely speculating alone about. He may be right, but the key is "may." I don't know why DTG isn't responding to PMDG, but until we know why, and until we have an official announcement to the effect, we have to go by what they've said in public so far, which is that "official" FSW DLC can be sold directly as long as it is also offered through STEAM. I'm sure some developers would prefer to sell directly where their very minimal distribution costs don't eat into their profits. But whether you like it or not, STEAM is a preferred gaming platform for the vast majority of gamers, and many people will not buy DLC if they can't buy it through STEAM.

One reason is that adding a lot of DLC to games that don't come through the official game channels often creates a bit of a mess. Not all developers ensure their products play nicely together, as all of us can attest to. For games I get through STEAM, like the truck sims, I've stopped using DLC that I don't get through STEAM. It's just so much easier and safer.

So, while it seems like a bit of a dilemma, the choice is whether you want to sell some of your stuff at lower price and some at better price, or none of your stuff, because you refuse to sell it for the platform at all.

Another solution is to raise the price so that it offsets the costs. It's not like PMDG stuff is cheap to begin with.

Forum members may disavow a platform because of loyalties to one or another developer, but I suspect that will not make much of an impression in the marketplace overall.

And I see nothing about any annual fees or anything of the sort in that piece.

And I've tried XP11. I remain deeply unimpressed.

[blanston12]

Like griphos I have not seen anything about an annual license, but the rest of it seems very plausible. I was speculating that since DTG was giving away copy of FSW to anybody who had gotten flights school that they were going the model of giving away the base package and then soaking everyone for the add-ons. That old FSX add ons won't be backward compatible may be more of a strategic decision than a technical one, how do they get 'their cut' if anyone can just drop an AC into the Simobjects folder and it works.

[Mach3DS]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if DTG ends up operating EXACTLY as described. Which will kill this hobby's future. If it's true, then they're banking on graphics enhancements and the Carenado show, to.save them where Flight and their previous attempt failed epically. This is abysmal need indeed if it proves to.be true. Hopefully it's complete tripe. But I'm not holding my breath.

[blanston12]

The history of MS Flight was very much on my mind when I read about what DTG was planning. Hopefully P3D and X-Plane will keep things open as they seam to be doing, I wish LM would be a bit more aggressive in marketing P3D to the public.

One question I do have is what DTG plans to do with FSX once FSW is released, to they continue to sell it or do they shut it off to force ppl to use there new product.

[hairyspin]

What is missing from that AVSim thread, like this one, are the facts. Without them, all discussion is so much porridge. We'll know once FSW is released, but the speculation mill is currently running overtime. Just my tuppence ha'penny.

[Mach3DS]

I like my porridge with maple and brown sugar! Couldn't Help Myself! Yeah...you are correct. If open development the way it currently is now was going to be a selling point of the new sim it would be front and center. But it's not. It's burried and being addressed less than forthcomingly which leads me to believe that it will be something much much less than fully open. And freeware design...no way. No money for them in that. So that would be gone from inception. Hopefully I'm wrong on all counts.

[hairyspin]

But you don't actually know and neither do I. Grind on, thou mighty rumour mill, and crush our fondest dreams ... or bury us in porridge, lol.

[Rick_Piper]

I'm just going to sit back and wait and see.

Rick

[IanHenry]

I'm just going to sit back and wait and see.

Rick

Yep, seems like the sensible option. All I know is that Dovetail have promised me the sim for free because I bought the now defunct Flight School. They didn't have to, as far as I'm concerned with Flight School I got what I paid for so the gift is a remarkable gesture of good will. They didn't have to do that.
Lets not kill this off before it's even started.


Ian

[wombat666]

I'm just going to sit back and wait and see.

Rick

I think a lot of us will be doing the same Rick.
Personally, I NEVER EVER purchase v.1 of anything, be it PC related, a domestic appliance, car or bike.
While Aussies are well known as 'early adopters', I (me, myself), refuse to be a beta tester for anything I've outlaid money on.
12 months down the track is a good rule of thumb.
For now I'll just wait and watch the passing parade.

[txnetcop]

I'm just going to sit back and wait and see.

Rick

AGREED! Our speculations have always been more wrong than right and that is true of Avsim as well! Time will tell...
Ted

[alehead]

The free giveaway to Flight School owners may be seen as a gesture. I am maybe a little more sceptical and fear what I call the app syndrome: base programme free but you get stung for in-app downloads. However, if too many sit on the fence to wait and see, well we may not even get up to taxi speed, let alone V1, rotate. FSW could be dead and buried before 12 months have passed. I am really sceptical about the financial model and the requirements to go through the steam store, which I have never used to date. I know it is not difficult to use, but you have Steam's platform use fee, DTG wants a cut, which I simply find unacceptable, the developer is left with less than 50% of the turnover, to cover costs and whatnot. If this is to become the "sim of the future", then we will see large numbers of smaller developers disappearing. A real shame indeed...


Andrew Entwistle

[Penzoil3]

What is missing from that AVSim thread, like this one, are the facts. Without them, all discussion is so much porridge. We'll know once FSW is released, but the speculation mill is currently running overtime. Just my tuppence ha'penny.

I agree. This was impressive too - http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...st-Impressions!

[icedon]

Heresay. I will judge for myself.

[b52bob]

Please, I've never heard so much negativity in the various FS forums ever, and it's not even out yet!

i will try it from day 1 as it's relatively cheap, and it's 64 bit. I tried xp two different times and hated it so this 64 bit FS seems intriguing. of course we also have P3D v4 coming also.

We should be excited.

[Roger]

Agreed Bob, let's keep it positive for now. I get it for free as I bought Flight school but my one concern is the download size on my phone line broadband...I must live on the only street in the area without cable so I do well at 1mps

[Boss86001]

I am looking forward to what Dovetail can bring to the table with FSW. At least we have great looking vc rain effects added to default aircraft when flying on rainy days which is much more realistic.

[zswobbie1]

I was unaware that MS had sold the rights to develop FSX to both Lockheed Martin and Dovetail Games. Lockheed Martin have produced P3D (with relevant restrictions) and Dovetail Games are about to release FLIGHT SIM WORLD which is a 64 bit version of FSX, upgraded and much modified in terms of user interface (or so it seems).

Actually, MS sold ESP, the professional 'not for entertainment', version of FSX to Lockheed Martin, & the 'for entertainment' FSX to DTG.
Two totally different business models!

So, DTG is releasing an incomplete beta 64 bit version, or 'early access', as they call it. (Sweet talking us to become beta testers for them)

What Early Access ACTUALLY means!! ------ An incomplete game! (yes, that's what they call it!) From Steam....
http://store.steampowered.com/app/38...ght_Sim_World/
Early Access Game
Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development

Why Early Access?
“The current flight sim space is a fountain of experience and expertise, and Early Access is our way of drawing upon that knowledge to make Flight Sim World the best it can be. We will have a better, stronger simulation platform if we collaborate with you on the future of this project.”


Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“We intend to roll out planned features over the next three to four months. This includes time to discuss and implement your valuable feedback. That being said, we're not setting any hard limits on how long we will be in this phase. When it’s ready, it’s ready!”


How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“During Early Access, we plan to roll out additional features, some of which will have an immediate impact on gameplay while others will provide the necessary extensions for future plans. Ultimately, our criteria for leaving the Early Access program is for Flight Sim World to be a stable platform upon which you are able to build the flight experience you want.”


What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“Flight Sim World is very much still in development. There are still more features and gameplay options which need to be implemented over the next few months which we are excited to share with you as they are made available.”


Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“The Early Access version of Flight Sim World is priced lower than the full release. This reflects the amount of content that will be added over the coming months and also makes it a good time for you to get involved in the Early Access process.
Price will change during the Early Access period, however this is largely subject to incoming features.”


How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“We want to give you the chance to be part of a hobby you are passionate about, while harnessing your knowledge and expertise to make Flight Sim World the best that it can be. We will be releasing updates and interacting with you regularly to test ideas, resolve issues, and help guide us in the right direction.”

Maybe they should pay us for our knowledge & expertise, as we guide them in the right direction?

[Montie]

Actually, MS sold ESP, the professional 'not for entertainment', version of FSX to Lockheed Martin, & the 'for entertainment' FSX to DTG.
Two totally different business models!

So, DTG is releasing an incomplete beta 64 bit version, or 'early access', as they call it. (Sweet talking us to become beta testers for them)

What Early Access ACTUALLY means!! ------ An incomplete game! (yes, that's what they call it!) From Steam....
http://store.steampowered.com/app/38...ght_Sim_World/
Early Access Game
Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development

Why Early Access?
“The current flight sim space is a fountain of experience and expertise, and Early Access is our way of drawing upon that knowledge to make Flight Sim World the best it can be. We will have a better, stronger simulation platform if we collaborate with you on the future of this project.”


Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“We intend to roll out planned features over the next three to four months. This includes time to discuss and implement your valuable feedback. That being said, we're not setting any hard limits on how long we will be in this phase. When it’s ready, it’s ready!”


How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“During Early Access, we plan to roll out additional features, some of which will have an immediate impact on gameplay while others will provide the necessary extensions for future plans. Ultimately, our criteria for leaving the Early Access program is for Flight Sim World to be a stable platform upon which you are able to build the flight experience you want.”


What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“Flight Sim World is very much still in development. There are still more features and gameplay options which need to be implemented over the next few months which we are excited to share with you as they are made available.”


Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“The Early Access version of Flight Sim World is priced lower than the full release. This reflects the amount of content that will be added over the coming months and also makes it a good time for you to get involved in the Early Access process.
Price will change during the Early Access period, however this is largely subject to incoming features.”


How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“We want to give you the chance to be part of a hobby you are passionate about, while harnessing your knowledge and expertise to make Flight Sim World the best that it can be. We will be releasing updates and interacting with you regularly to test ideas, resolve issues, and help guide us in the right direction.”

Maybe they should pay us for our knowledge & expertise, as we guide them in the right direction?

They are not forcing you to buy it while it is in early access - you are free to wait until it is a finished product

[Daube]

Are we really discussing about what an "Early Access" is ? Is it really such a mysterious and "never heard before" expression for some people ?
It's just a beta (sometimes even an alpha), there's no secret about it anywhere. I don't know why people keep complaining about that...

[zswobbie1]

Not complaining, just saying!

[txnetcop]

I've been playing EARLY ACCESS Ultimate General Gettysburg and UG Civil War. The updates are consistent and add to the game play. The price is low while in early access and Steam responds positively to our request. DTG is doing exactly the same thing. The good news is that they are at least releasing a full flight sim with additions to come...
Ted

[Daube]

I don't remember exactly, but I've had at least one game in early access, and it was what was advertised: a work in progress alpha version of a game, which became complete (and quite nice too) a few months later. I saw it as a "preorder with benefits".
Same goes with Star Citizen, for example, although the waiting time is much longer (and the content is much bigger too...).