F7F-3 question for Mr. Shupe
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Thread: F7F-3 question for Mr. Shupe

  1. #1

    F7F-3 question for Mr. Shupe

    I love this plane. Flies for a treat, and landing is easy as pie (once I learned to keep my speed correct ).
    The question I have, and this comes from reading the POH included in the Documentation folder is: Why didn't you make it use the Automixture feature? The POH specifies that the mixture can be set to Auto Rich, or Auto Lean.
    There is a gauge that came out with a DC-3 on the the DCAirlines site, that has the Auto Rich and Auto Lean features built in. I am pretty sure it's freeware, available to anyone who wants to use it, no restrictions. It seems to me it would be perfect for this plane. I can see if I can find the link to it if you want?
    But, if NOTHING else, shouldn't the engine have the automixture=1 line in it?
    I'm just asking. You did such a great job on this plane, but this one thing (well, among a few others) is bothering me. Maybe I'm just being lazy

    One other question, if I may: I was reading the POH and it says there is a water injection system. I read through the SDK, and there is water injection available. It a separate section in the aircraft.cfg. Shouldn't that be included? I've seen a War Emergency Power switch someplace. No idea where, but I can look for it if you want. Would that, along with the aircraft.cfg entry(s) be a correct way to install this feature?

    Yes, I could do all this fun stuff myself. I was just wondering if there were specific reasons you didn't include these two features. Nosey, I suppose.
    Thank you in advance for any help you may provide!
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  2. #2
    FSX' automixture only knows "auto rich" (0.081 fuel-air-ratio).

    I've written an automixture gauge to be used in any piston powered aircraft to get around this limitation.
    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...auge-(FS9-FSX)

  3. #3
    Many thanks, Bjoern!
    I appreciate the head's up indeed

    Now, my question would be: Would the addition of this little gauge, great as it is indeed, disqualify this plane from the RTWR? I don't want to do anything to it that would have that result.

    Same for the Water Injection entries in the aircraft.cfg. Would they be a disqualifying change? It IS included in the POH included with the plane, so I wouldn't think they would bbuuut...

    Thanks again! I appreciate it a lot. I am about good enough with XML coding to make an icon to add to a panel, and that's about the limit of my expertise

    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomTweak View Post
    I love this plane. Flies for a treat, and landing is easy as pie (once I learned to keep my speed correct ).
    The question I have, and this comes from reading the POH included in the Documentation folder is: Why didn't you make it use the Automixture feature? The POH specifies that the mixture can be set to Auto Rich, or Auto Lean.
    There is a gauge that came out with a DC-3 on the the DCAirlines site, that has the Auto Rich and Auto Lean features built in. I am pretty sure it's freeware, available to anyone who wants to use it, no restrictions. It seems to me it would be perfect for this plane. I can see if I can find the link to it if you want?
    But, if NOTHING else, shouldn't the engine have the automixture=1 line in it?
    I'm just asking. You did such a great job on this plane, but this one thing (well, among a few others) is bothering me. Maybe I'm just being lazy

    One other question, if I may: I was reading the POH and it says there is a water injection system. I read through the SDK, and there is water injection available. It a separate section in the aircraft.cfg. Shouldn't that be included? I've seen a War Emergency Power switch someplace. No idea where, but I can look for it if you want. Would that, along with the aircraft.cfg entry(s) be a correct way to install this feature?

    Yes, I could do all this fun stuff myself. I was just wondering if there were specific reasons you didn't include these two features. Nosey, I suppose.
    Thank you in advance for any help you may provide!
    Pat☺
    Hi Pat, good to see you.

    I built this aircraft for FS9 started in 2009, built most in 2010 and released the -1 and -3 in January 2011 in time for the RTWR. It was a rush job to get done 60 days before the race date to meet qualifications. The other models of the aircraft were completed by July 2011 for FS9.

    RE: Auto-mixture: Leaving auto mixture at 0 in the cfg allows users to manually manage fuel/air mixture (many like to do that for radials). Setting it to 1 disallows that. Even though it is set to 0, you can turn your sim settings to auto-mixture and you can forget managing the fuel/air mixture. So, that is why I set it to 0. :-)

    FS9 does not have a built in feature for Auto-lean/rich and it was not a concern of mine at the time in FS9 seven years ago. Even if someone had a gauge available, I would not have used it. We tried to build and only use our own products in those days.

    RE: Water-injection system: FS9 does not support that. We did use Mike Wagner's WEP gauge for the racer and that was legal. The flight model is built to hit the numbers that the supercharger allowed for the aircraft. Adding any further capabilities would cause the aircraft to over-perform. The FS9 aircraft performs to the numbers otherwise it would not have been approved by the racing committee. :-)

    Hope that explains and answers the questions.

    EDIT: These aircraft were updated in 2015 by me, and gman5250 began an FSX native conversion. He released parts of that project last year primarily focusing on exterior textures. He continues to evolve the all new VC to very high standards.
    Milton Shupe
    FS9/FSX Modeler Hack

    My Uploads at SOH - Here
    Video Tutorials - Gmax for Beginners

  5. #5
    Hope that explains and answers the questions.
    Yes, sir, it sure does

    I know, I ask a lot of question, and I apologize, but it's how we humans learn...
    One last question, if I may: I understand the water injection system increases the plane's performance. It's what it's designed to do, after all. Having said that, it's a very limited time effect. About 5 min according to the POH. Do you think the Race committee would call "foul" if I installed the Water Injection, to the specs in the POH? Honestly, I'm not trying for an advantage during the Race, I'm trying to make the plane a little more realistic, in my limited way.

    Same with the autorich/autolean system. I have no trouble adjusting the mixture myself as I fly. It just that the plane has it in the real world. Mr. Bjoern's little add-on gauge would be as perfect for this as it gets, and it can be disabled, permitting manual mixture control if desired. Do you think the Race Committee would call "Foul" on it? Would YOU be upset? It's your plane after all. Again, not looking for an advantage, just trying to enhance the plane's realism in my limited way.

    If you object, of course, I wouldn't make any changes to anything. I wouldn't plan on "publishing" it anywhere either, of course. I might let my team-mate have a copy of any updates I make, with full credit to yourself and Mr. Bjoern, of course. Yeah, only the two of us, atm, although I'm working on getting my lovely wife involved more actively, for a total of 3 Flightsim Race team members
    Yaaay us!

    Thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate it.
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  6. #6
    Water injection only improves performance in a roundabout way. At high manifold pressures and high outside air temperatures, cylinder head temperatures may have to be kept in limits by limiting throttle (manifold pressure). If CHTs get high and mixtures a little lean, you get pre-ignition, or "knocking". This is REAL serious in a high powered engine.

    To get max possible HP on takeoff, water injection and rich mixtures cool the cylinder heads so that a higher MAP can be maintained. Obviously you would like to use water during a long climb to get to cruise altitude with a heavy load, but water is heavy, so their is a weight-performance tradeoff.

    Same thing in old turbojets; water wasn't really for increasing mass flow, but to keep turbine outlet temps down at full power on hot days thus allowing shorter takeoffs or alternatively higher weight on a given runway.

    Been there, done that (many long years ago).

  7. #7
    The POH specifies that water injection was to be used for "not more than five minutes", and conserved for "emergency use only". The POH provides the appropriate charts and instructions on it's proper usage.

    The new VC will be technically accurate with mixture settings built in as per manufacturer spec. The manual specifies auto rich and auto lean for various aspects of take off, climb and landing. The specs and charts are extensive (read overwhelming) in the POH, so flying the plane by the book will be a bit of a learning curve.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake | Cooler MasterAir Maker 8 CPU Thermal Cooler | ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E LGA 1151 | CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB 288-Pin DDR4/3200 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB | SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 1TB SSD | Mushkin Chronos 240GB 2.5 SSD | WD Black 2TB 7200 RPM |WD Black 5TB 7200 RPM | CORSAIR HX Series HX1200 PSU | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  8. #8
    Same thing in old turbojets; water wasn't really for increasing mass flow, but to keep turbine outlet temps down at full power on hot days thus allowing shorter takeoffs or alternatively higher weight on a given runway.
    Yes, we had that problem with the Harriers in Yuma (strangely...Yuma, hot? NO!?!) when they first got there. Had a lot of trouble holding a hover for any length of time, until they got the water injection systems installed. Even WITH water, times were they couldn't hover. But then, Yuma can get a trifle warm at times. Like almost every friggen day of the year...
    I hated that place...

    The new VC will be technically accurate with mixture settings built in as per manufacturer spec. The manual specifies auto rich and auto lean for various aspects of take off, climb and landing. The specs and charts are extensive (read overwhelming) in the POH, so flying the plane by the book will be a bit of a learning curve.
    Thank you very much, sir! I eagerly look forward to seeing the new VC

    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  9. #9
    Pat..

    It's hard to say where the future of the RTW might lay for 2018, however per the current rules a whitelist aircraft can't me modified in any respect other than instrument "helps" (ie, usually navigation), and livery, essentially. Absolutely no performance changes, realistic or not, are allowed. So you should probably bring these items up at the RTW forum and see what the current committee members might have to say. Any changes that they do approve would be subject to a download link being made available to all teams, well prior to the race of next year.

    - Joseph
    VFR Simulations
    www.vfrsim.com



  10. #10
    As it stands now, the new VC will plug directly into the existing model by Milton Shupe and upgraded for FSX by me. I believe that model is on the approved list.
    I'm currently flying the FM that was approved by the committee with performance that is derived from that configuration.

    As Mr. Shupe has pointed out, the automixture feature is configured in the config file. The airplane is currently set up to be flown by making appropriate mixture adjustments in real time as would be done in actual flight conditions.

    Existing textures will apply, as per the original for the exterior. The new interior is, of course, all new art dedicated to the new VC and not compatible with the original(s).

    I do have a new exterior model in the pipeline, but that model will need to be considered an entirely new airplane when it is eventually released. Even at that, the FM will be fundamentally the same as it is now.

    Not sure if that info is helpful, but may help answer some basic questions as to the plane's ability to qualify.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake | Cooler MasterAir Maker 8 CPU Thermal Cooler | ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E LGA 1151 | CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB 288-Pin DDR4/3200 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB | SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 1TB SSD | Mushkin Chronos 240GB 2.5 SSD | WD Black 2TB 7200 RPM |WD Black 5TB 7200 RPM | CORSAIR HX Series HX1200 PSU | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomTweak View Post
    If you object, of course, I wouldn't make any changes to anything. I wouldn't plan on "publishing" it anywhere either, of course. I might let my team-mate have a copy of any updates I make, with full credit to yourself and Mr. Bjoern, of course.
    You can distribute my gauge as you see fit, as long as I'm credited.

  12. #12
    Thank you, gentlemen, one and all!
    I sincerely appreciate the info. From one and all.

    So you should probably bring these items up at the RTW forum and see what the current committee members might have to say. Any changes that they do approve would be subject to a download link being made available to all teams, well prior to the race of next year.
    IF I were to make any sort of performance changes, I would certainly do that, Joseph. I'm not looking for an advantage of any kind, just for realism, in the few little areas I'm familiar with. If this is unacceptable to the Race committee in any way, of course, I wouldn't dream of doing anything. I might change the autopilot settings slightly, or the radio settings, things like that. Nothing more.

    As Mr. Shupe has pointed out, the automixture feature is configured in the config file. The airplane is currently set up to be flown by making appropriate mixture adjustments in real time as would be done in actual flight conditions.
    Not sure if that info is helpful, but may help answer some basic questions as to the plane's ability to qualify.
    I understand, completely. I have no trouble keeping up with the mixture manually. Doesn't bother me at all I had just read about the Autorich/Autolean feature in the POH, and, since Mr. Bjoern's gauge meets the the POH so perfectly, I thought incorporating it would be a good thing.

    You can distribute my gauge as you see fit, as long as I'm credited.
    I wouldn't consider any other way, and wouldn't have thought of doing such a thing without your prior permission. Which, by the way I thank you for

    Many thanks again to you all. I sincerely appreciate the assistance, and information.
    Have great flights all!
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

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