B26B FSX Native Marauder Painters Release Beta 1.0 - Page 12
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Thread: B26B FSX Native Marauder Painters Release Beta 1.0

  1. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckie View Post
    Well, after a few hours of trial and error testing, the only thing that affects the reflectivity is of the exterior glass is the "glass_fresnel_red.dds" texture. no amount of transparency or opacity adjustment to the "cabin_glass.dds" diffuse or alpha makes any difference on the reflectivity. However, by deleting the "glass_fresnel_red.dds" the reflectivity totally goes away. The glass still has "tint" (still visible) and transparency but no reflectivity.

    So, guess I'll just live with the glass the way it is originally designed. Thanks, Milton and Rick, for the help.

    Steve
    Steve, not sure what your "glass_fresnel_red.dds" looks like.

    Is it a solid shade, or is it from right to left, a gradient from black to white.

    For reflectivity to change, you can shift that gradient (left or right) or find a common mid-color in that gradient that allows the degree of reflectivity you want. Be aware that it will also slightly affect specular and diffuse, but that may be what you want.
    Milton Shupe
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  2. #277
    SOH-CM-2024 Duckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Shupe View Post
    Steve, not sure what your "glass_fresnel_red.dds" looks like.

    Is it a solid shade, or is it from right to left, a gradient from black to white.

    For reflectivity to change, you can shift that gradient (left or right) or find a common mid-color in that gradient that allows the degree of reflectivity you want. Be aware that it will also slightly affect specular and diffuse, but that may be what you want.
    Milton, the "glass_fresnel_red.dds" is one that came with the original textures and is located in the common texture folder. I do not know how to edit this file. DXTBmp will not open it. Image tool will open it and shows a solid gray rectangle 4 x 256, not a gradient. You should have a copy of it with your originals. If not, here's a copy of the dds in the attached zip.

    Glass_fresnel_red.zip
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  3. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckie View Post
    Milton, the "glass_fresnel_red.dds" is one that came with the original textures and is located in the common texture folder. I do not know how to edit this file. DXTBmp will not open it. Image tool will open it and shows a solid gray rectangle 4 x 256, not a gradient. You should have a copy of it with your originals. If not, here's a copy of the dds in the attached zip.

    Glass_fresnel_red.zip
    Hi Steve,

    I have the original, but was not sure if you had changed yours for effect.

    Here are two screen shots from the SDK that describe influences of variations of Fresnel ramp textures.

    You can also get a sense of the effects of the diffuse differences and its resulting appearance based on Fresnel ramps.

    The Fresnel ramp I distributed is a solid shade of gray and thus allows equal treatment of characteristics across the flat or curved glass.

    Aside from that, with the current settings, I can offer little help with getting to your desired glass appearance other than through experimentation.

    BTW, I cannot edit the Fresnel Ramp either. :-/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fres.jpg   fresalpha.jpg  
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  4. #279
    Steve and I are involved in testing some changes to the glass appearance and are making progress.

    These changes involve the Fresnel ramp assignments, the reflective scalar, the opacity scalar, and the diffuse alpha in combination.

    Results look promising and we hope to come forward with a better solution for glass.

    EDIT: Rick said: "Please use BananaBob's Alternate Envmap for best results."

    I cannot find that but in our testing, it is obvious we need to use that envmap.

    Can someone attach a copy here.

    EDIT Cancel the envmap request; it has been satisfied for me and will be included in the package.
    Last edited by Milton Shupe; August 10th, 2017 at 17:52.
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  5. #280
    Milton...I can help with materials for glass....I wasn't aware that was "on the table" as an option to edit materials.
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  6. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Milton...I can help with materials for glass....I wasn't aware that was "on the table" as an option to edit materials.
    Hi Rick,

    Thank you for the offer.

    Let me just summarize the changes I have made, and the reasons why with their (cross-) effects and I'll shoot you a copy of the revisions.
    Milton Shupe
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  7. #282
    Problem: The glass seemed too transparent in many angles and lighting conditions except where specular was obvious. I tried broadening the specular but that made the center areas too rich.

    The revised glass testing really started when I found this in the SDK:

    "When assigned and engaged in a material, the Fresnel Ramp defines incident-angle opacity and colorization for a given channel on an object. The reflection characteristics of a material will be affected by any Fresnel Ramp assigned to that channel in the material. As a general rule, any Fresnel Ramp assigned to a channel on a material will mitigate that channel’s opacity. Channels (Reflection, Specular and Diffuse) will almost always appear stronger and more opaque if a Fresnel Ramp is not present as an adjunct to that channel. Unmitigated channels can appear overly forceful, so it is not recommended for most applications that Fresnel Ramps be removed altogether. If a user wishes to reduce the effect of a Fresnel Ramp on most materials it is recommend that they edit it rather than attempt to remove or disable it.


    However, for some very specific materials, it is useful to remove the Fresnel Ramps from certain channels (the Glass and Chrome materials used for aircraft, for example). Fresnel Ramps generally reduce the effect of a channel which they are assigned to, but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps. For most materials, those that are not highly reflective, this is not recommended."

    As a result, I removed the Diffuse from the Fresnel ramp control and adjusted the diffuse alpha (of cabin_glass) for a test.

    I then increased the Opacity Scalar to 35% and later to 60%. (Actually this is called the Final Alpha Blend scalar)
    This was done because I found that the stronger the reflectivity, the more transparent the glass.

    I then reduced the Reflectivity scalar to 80% testing along the way for each change.
    I ultimately settled on 60% on the Opacity scalar.

    The Global Env map is not good for this aircraft and we chose to go with Banana Bob's for better reflective properties.

    This is where we are now in testing and so far, the improvements are very good.

    I have created two new model folders for testing: 1) Revised Fresnel (removal of Diffuse with changes as described above), and 2) NoFresnel - we have not done any testing with this one yet.

    Unfortunately each of these changes are requiring material setting changes, then testing. If we can get close, then we can tweak, possibly, with the textures.

    If we wish to pursue testing on the NoFresnel ramp model, we should discuss what initial material settings to start with. I left all the textures in the Diffuse, spec color, and spec level slots.
    We would likely have to get a reading on a baseline test, then decide what to adjust from there.

    I also understand that you, Steve, and I are in different systems and sims, so results may be difficult to compare.

    So, that is where we are ...
    Milton Shupe
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  8. #283
    Here are the current Glass Material settings
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ms-2017-aug-11-016.jpg   ms-2017-aug-11-017.jpg   ms-2017-aug-11-018.jpg   ms-2017-aug-11-019.jpg  
    Milton Shupe
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  9. #284
    Milton, if you use fresnel affecting reflection only, this will allow a good reflection in the off angles (the edges) while maintaining a good clarity through the glass on head on viewing angles. Oddly enough I never had an issues with the glass as it is currently and really liked the effect. Did you try using banana bibs alternate environment map with the original glass priotr to making the materials change just to see if it worked better for you?
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  10. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Milton, if you use fresnel affecting reflection only, this will allow a good reflection in the off angles (the edges) while maintaining a good clarity through the glass on head on viewing angles. Oddly enough I never had an issues with the glass as it is currently and really liked the effect. Did you try using banana bibs alternate environment map with the original glass priotr to making the materials change just to see if it worked better for you?

    Rick,

    First, I have not disturbed the original settings or model. I am running tests with test models and textures.
    No, I did not try Banana Bob's envmap as I did not have it.

    But, the issue was not the reflection itself, but the excessive transparency at angles where specular was not present. It was as if no glass existed especially in the lower areas (which were also the ground (darker) area of the envmap).

    What we wanted was obvious glass in all viewing angles with or without reflections or specular.

    Now, we still have good reflections, but more opacity, and a little broader specular effect.
    The 20% reduction in reflections gave a softer, less new car window look, while maintaining an obvious reflection background of sky, clouds, and landscape.

    New car ad window reflections did not go well with the aged and weathered, well-used aircraft appearance.
    Last edited by Milton Shupe; August 11th, 2017 at 06:40.
    Milton Shupe
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  11. #286
    Rick, (and anyone else who is interested)

    I have uploaded a test package to experiment with glass settings.

    Here is the Test Package. It can reside in the airplanes folder along side the original without impact.


    It has two models:

    1) Revised Fresnel (Diffuse Not checked, Glass Opacity increased, Reflectivity decreased/softened by 20%), and
    2) No Fresnel for Diffuse, Reflectivity, or Specular. (Glass opacity increased, reflectivity decreased by 20%),

    I also changed the primary channel color of the cabin_glass.

    Both have all the original textures specified in the Diffuse, Spec Color, and Spec Level slots.


    There are two texture folders, each containing full textures from the common and livery folders so you can change and test one without disturbing the other. I had not yet put Banana Bob's envmap in the texture folders. I tested without that, so please put the envmap in the folders before testing.

    The panel and sound folders are aliased to the original. You may have to modify the alias statement to point to your named folder of the original B26 package as I use an underscore in front my folder name to keep it at the top of the aircraft list.

    I have both the No Fresnel and Revised Fresnel versions appearing about the same now.

    See what you think. Change and test as you like.

    http://www.sim-outhouse.net/download...B26Testing.zip


    Thanks
    Milton
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  12. #287
    Milton are you saying that you removed the FRESNEL altogether from the exterior textures? While the SDK does state that FRESNEL reduces the effect... It's not by much, and having it active, its benefits to realism, far outweighs not having it. That would be my recommendation. And a selfish note... Lol... My metal uses the FRESNEL for exterior effect. Removing it removes a layer of lighting. We had the exterior setup for affecting specular only, which is IMHO the best results given the option of chosing between reflection or specular. Choosing the BOTH option blends the 2 effects and doesn't result in the ability to really make uses of either alpha channel or specular very well. Just my 2 cents.
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  13. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Milton are you saying that you removed the FRESNEL altogether from the exterior textures? While the SDK does state that FRESNEL reduces the effect... It's not by much, and having it active, its benefits to realism, far outweighs not having it. That would be my recommendation. And a selfish note... Lol... My metal uses the FRESNEL for exterior effect. Removing it removes a layer of lighting. We had the exterior setup for affecting specular only, which is IMHO the best results given the option of chosing between reflection or specular. Choosing the BOTH option blends the 2 effects and doesn't result in the ability to really make uses of either alpha channel or specular very well. Just my 2 cents.

    Of course not.

    This whole test is only about Glass. Exterior textures and settings have not changed since you did your work and there are no plans to change them.

    Please re-read post #282; it's all about glass.

    "... but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps."
    Milton Shupe
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  14. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Shupe View Post
    Of course not.

    This whole test is only about Glass. Exterior textures and settings have not changed since you did your work and there are no plans to change them.

    Please re-read post #282; it's all about glass.

    "... but if you are looking to maximize the reflective qualities of such materials as glass and chrome, then remove the Fresnel Ramps."

    LOL! phew! That's my bad Milton! Thanks for clearing that up for me! Sometimes I wonder how I miss the obvious! Human error I guess, mixed with age,kids and puppies!
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  15. #290
    Just keep in mind that if you want off angle reflection you must have fresnel enabled for reflection only.
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  16. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Just keep in mind that if you want off angle reflection you must have fresnel enabled for reflection only.
    Rick, if you will look at post 283 above, I showed the current material settings. There have been minor scalar changes since, but you will see that Specular and Reflections are still under the control of Fresnel Ramp. As I stated in 282, I only dropped Fresnel ramp from the Diffuse map.

    EDIT: Those settings are for the Revised Fresnel test model.

    In the NoFresnel test model, Fresnel is not active for any of the three characteristics.

    In our testing so far, we have achieved good results on both sides, better IMO than the original model, but not quite where we would like it.

    EDIT2: BTW, have you done any testing, changes? Could you do a proper Fresnel Ramp and test it on your system, then share it. I cannot edit the Fresnel ramp at all.
    Milton Shupe
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  17. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Shupe View Post
    Rick, if you will look at post 283 above, I showed the current material settings. There have been minor scalar changes since, but you will see that Specular and Reflections are still under the control of Fresnel Ramp. As I stated in 282, I only dropped Fresnel ramp from the Diffuse map.

    EDIT: Those settings are for the Revised Fresnel test model.

    In the NoFresnel test model, Fresnel is not active for any of the three characteristics.

    In our testing so far, we have achieved good results on both sides, better IMO than the original model, but not quite where we would like it.

    EDIT2: BTW, have you done any testing, changes? Could you do a proper Fresnel Ramp and test it on your system, then share it. I cannot edit the Fresnel ramp at all.
    Copy that Milton. No I have not done any testing yet. If you would like I can look at the model and likely figure out exactly what settings to use for glass with off angle Reflection? What's the verdict? Is it too reflective now? Or not reflective enough? What look are you ultimately trying to achieve? Starting with the end in mind will help me figure out what needs to be done. I'll fiddle with the original model first. And see what can be done. Then I'll move to the others.
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  18. #293
    As stated in post #282:

    "Problem: The glass seemed too transparent in many angles and lighting conditions except where specular was obvious."

    and in post #285:

    "What we wanted was obvious glass in all viewing angles with or without reflections or specular."


    So, that is the goal.
    As you can see from the attached, the original #3 shows glass is not obviously there in some areas.
    Attachment Legend: 1) Revised with a lighter cabin_glass primary, 2) Revised with a darker cabin_glass primary and alpha, 3) Original model and settings

    In the revised glass material test (Only the diffuse slot is not under Fresnel ramp control) I darkened the cabin_glass primary and alpha channels to "tint' it darker a bit so glass is always obvious.
    That would be the center section of the attached, #2.

    Since Fresnel does not control the Diffuse, the Cabin_glass can be mod'ed to change opacity and tint.

    The primary channel needs to be just dark enough to see glass at the bottom of the plexi nose and the alpha must be adjusted to tweak the specular.
    Then all the other windows need to be checked to ensure they are okay.

    What we found was that Steve's system renders much differently than my old system so finding something that suits everyone may be difficult.

    We therefore recommend making changes to the cabin_glass in the texture folders to suit individual systems and leave the common texture folder as distributed.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails compare.jpg  
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  19. #294
    Milton,


    Try doing this: (If you feel inclined)

    On the original model >>> The current settings for Fresnel and Diffuse Alpha are set as follows:

    Fresnel affects: Diffuse & Reflection & Specular.

    Alpha: Blend Diffuse by Diffuse Alpha.


    This is why changing the fresnel is not having a very good effect with the current settings, and changing the Alpha is not seeming to work correctly (at least from my POV). See Image.

    -Try changing the original model to Fresnel Ramp affects only Reflection (This will allow for the reflection to be seen in those edges when the fresnel is created properly, without having to increase amount of actual reflection.
    -The alpha is set to the reverse of what to me is normal (Using the INVERSE of the diffuse alpha). So, making the alpha darker was having the opposite effect? or no effect? Try changing this to Blend environment by the inverse of the Diffuse Alpha (like the other textures are set to).

    I personally like your original as is, but I think we can solve this so as to use textures to define the glass, rather than setting the materials to something that cannot be changed later on.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Capture.JPG  
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  20. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Milton,


    Try doing this: (If you feel inclined)

    On the original model >>> The current settings for Fresnel and Diffuse Alpha are set as follows:

    Fresnel affects: Diffuse & Reflection & Specular.

    Alpha: Blend Diffuse by Diffuse Alpha.


    This is why changing the Fresnel is not having a very good effect with the current settings, and changing the Alpha is not seeming to work correctly (at least from my POV). See Image.

    -Try changing the original model to Fresnel Ramp affects only Reflection (This will allow for the reflection to be seen in those edges when the Fresnel is created properly, without having to increase amount of actual reflection.
    -The alpha is set to the reverse of what to me is normal (Using the INVERSE of the diffuse alpha). So, making the alpha darker was having the opposite effect? or no effect? Try changing this to Blend environment by the inverse of the Diffuse Alpha (like the other textures are set to).

    I personally like your original as is, but I think we can solve this so as to use textures to define the glass, rather than setting the materials to something that cannot be changed later on.
    Rick,

    See the attached.

    Fresnel affects: Reflection & Specular (I only removed the Diffuse)

    Once I removed the Diffuse from Fresnel ramp control in our tests, that allowed the cabin_glass channels to be adjusted and works as it would normally allowing adjustments to both primary and alpha channels with expected results by the end user.

    Reflections look fine and are still under control of the Fresnel ramp. We did not increase reflections in our tests; I decreased their vividness and strength by 30% using the scalar (reducing that new car glass reflection). They are still strong and obvious, and under control of the Fresnel ramp.

    The problem with the original is, at many angles, the glass is not obvious or visible in the plexi or the windscreen.

    You can still achieve that look with the changes I have made simply by decreasing the primary channel darkness and tweaking the alpha.

    I am now happy with the results. Steve is happy with his results. Our systems render the results differently so being able to adjust the cabin_glass channels by the end user is necessary as their systems may render differently as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails material.jpg  
    Milton Shupe
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  21. #296
    Good news Milton! Is this iteration you mention in your last post, one of the ones you posted for DL above?
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  22. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
    Good news Milton! Is this iteration you mention in your last post, one of the ones you posted for DL above?
    Steve, I have not updated the production version yet. Just received Steve's final settings and will go with that to update the production model.

    Once done, I will re-export the models and post the updates here.
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  23. #298

    B26 Marauder Updates

    Here are the updates regarding the glass textures.

    Attached are three model replacement folders:

    1) No Gun Pods, (model=b26-nopods)
    2) 1 Gun Pod, and (model=b26-1pod)
    3) 2 Gun Pods (model=b26-2pods)

    Note that I have changed model folder names to better reflect the model variants. Please update your [fltsim.nn] sections (Sorry Steve. :-)

    Also included is a revised "cabin_glass.dds" texture for the common texture folder.

    EDIT: Thanks to Duckie for the final cabin_glass.dds make up. Looks perfect on my system.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Milton Shupe; August 12th, 2017 at 15:54.
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  24. #299
    SOH-CM-2024 Duckie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Shupe View Post
    Here are the updates regarding the glass textures.

    Attached are three model replacement folders:

    1) No Gun Pods, (model=b26-nopods)
    2) 1 Gun Pod, and (model=b26-1pod)
    3) 2 Gun Pods (model=b26-2pods)

    Note that I have changed model folder names to better reflect the model variants. Please update your [fltsim.nn] sections (Sorry Steve. :-)

    Also included is a revised "cabin_glass.dds" texture for the common texture folder.
    Thanks Milton. Not a problem for me. I've become pretty adept at switching and making new model folders over the last couple days!
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  25. #300
    SOH-CM-2024 Duckie's Avatar
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    OK, "Some-Punk-Kin" is finally finished! It will be issued with the official V1 release when the VC and interior are completed.

    B-26C-10-MO 41-34891, Battle Number 06, 437th BS, 319th BG, Corsica 1944. Flown by Capt. Wilfred E. Cory.





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