Avro Lancaste and DeHav Mossie Gauges
Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Avro Lancaste and DeHav Mossie Gauges

  1. #1
    Charter Member 2016 mongoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Navigator, where are we??
    Age
    73
    Posts
    1,112

    Avro Lancaste and DeHav Mossie Gauges

    I don't suppose anyone here knows how the gauges of these ac were illuminated at night?? Radium? UV? Combo?

    Cato said "Carthaginem esse delendam"
    I say "Carthago iam diu deleta,sed enim Bellum Alium adhuc aedificandum est"

  2. #2
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    Nope none of that fancy stuff, just a simple red lamp or two shining on the panel and on the cockpit generally.

  3. #3
    Charter Member 2016 mongoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Navigator, where are we??
    Age
    73
    Posts
    1,112
    That was really it?? Seems primitive compared with some USA ac?

    Cato said "Carthaginem esse delendam"
    I say "Carthago iam diu deleta,sed enim Bellum Alium adhuc aedificandum est"

  4. #4
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    Afraid so and it was very basic compared to some but not all US aircraft, the reason was basically electrical systems. I have flown that era of aircraft and the cockpit lighting was woeful with one red lamp on the panel, a good hand held torch was mandatory if you wanted to see anything and as an emergency lighting system. The next step up was to put little eyebrow lights on the instruments, you can see these in the C-47 and a lot of other aircraft. Background lighting and internal instrument lighting followed later. There was an idea about that you saw better at night with a red light not a white light, but this actually is not true, so red lit instrument lighting has basically disappeared. There was also another important aspect minimising light glare that could be seen from outside the aircraft which was important in combat at night, one little light can be seen a long way at night, basically in a completely dark night you could see a match being lit from 20,000 ft.

    This era of aircraft were all pretty simple and uncomplicated electrically and generally electrics were only used where you could not use a mechanical lever or cable-pulley or hydraulic system. Most instrumentation was barometric, gyro or vacuum driven so no need for electrics. If you look at the Lancaster and a lot of other types of the period for example you will see the pilot controlled no radios, no radar and no bombing equipment, this was all done at the crew stations for that activity, all they had was a simple intercom system. Magnetos are not electrical per se but a simple magnetic system to generate a spark at the plug, the switches in the aircraft basically are wired to the ignition circuit to test the dual magneto and to break the circuit or turn it off, hence you could hand start most engines one way or another but really big engines meant a hand crank was hopeless and so starter motors would be fitted.

    US aircraft really changed that with the use of multiple electrical systems in aircraft (Boeing in particular). In WW 2 electrics were primarily for radios, radars and bomb dropping equipment, especially in British aircraft. Part of the design approach was also to use an external power source, like a starter cart which then was plugged in to energise the aircraft and get the engines started, once a generator was online the cart would be disconnected. Some even used cockpit mounted cartridge guns where you stuffed in basically a big shotgun shell and fired it off to spin the engine. Another things was all this early gear was bulky and heavy (look at a 1940's radio compared to a transistor radio and now digital) and space and weight was always a premium issue in any aeroplane. Radio gear for example could take up the space of two people at the back of a cockpit with big metal racking to hold it all. The rest as they say is history.

  5. #5
    Charter Member 2016 mongoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Navigator, where are we??
    Age
    73
    Posts
    1,112
    Thanks. I greatly appreciate all that information. Solves some issues at least.

    Cato said "Carthaginem esse delendam"
    I say "Carthago iam diu deleta,sed enim Bellum Alium adhuc aedificandum est"

  6. #6
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488


    FWIW Not sure if you can see this but mid section top just below the glare shield you will see two black cylindrical objects angled left and right - they are the cockpit panel lights. If you look at the Mosquito you will see similar lights but the Mossie has a few more and to the left fuselage cockpit side as well to illuminate the engine control levers etc that were placed there. The Plane Design Lanc has these modelled into the VC but not as far as lights are concerned - I have no idea how you get that beam effect into FSX screens and judging by the drama that Visser had with the C-47 project I would say it is a problem because of the way light is run by texture files. Anyway that is all. Good luck with it all.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails e2309bd012f28b1b965485a906b9620e.jpg  

  7. #7
    In WW 2 electrics were primarily for radios, radars and bomb dropping equipment, especially in British aircraft.
    I may well be wrong, but, aside from the weight, and size, considerations, was that copper, a very good electrical conductor, was in VERY short supply during WWII. Mostly used for bullets, and cartridge casings. Given Britains materiel shortages, it's no real surprize they tended to try to prefer other ways than electrics for various systems. Some things, yes, thee were just no other ways than electrics, but for many there were alternatives.
    Also, lets face it, electrics, let alone electronics, were in their infancy. Couple that with British consveratism, and electrics were just not very popular. Although they took to Radar like a fish to water, so I may well be wrong on that...
    Just my 2 COPPER PENNIES worth
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  8. #8
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomTweak View Post
    I may well be wrong, but, aside from the weight, and size, considerations, was that copper, a very good electrical conductor, was in VERY short supply during WWII. Mostly used for bullets, and cartridge casings. Given Britains materiel shortages, it's no real surprize they tended to try to prefer other ways than electrics for various systems. Some things, yes, thee were just no other ways than electrics, but for many there were alternatives.
    Also, lets face it, electrics, let alone electronics, were in their infancy. Couple that with British consveratism, and electrics were just not very popular. Although they took to Radar like a fish to water, so I may well be wrong on that...
    Just my 2 COPPER PENNIES worth
    Pat☺
    Agree, the Poms still designed aircraft to be looked after by staff, individual trades etc for everything and every bit, they were still doing it post WW 2 and even though they caught up technically and in a lot of cases were brilliant designs, they were maintenance nightmares and they wonder why Boeing and Douglas ate their dinner! A couple of mechanics and engineers to fix things as opposed to a dozen.

  9. #9
    Having been a Maintenance guy myself, I have to say that it seems, whatever the company, or country for that matter, the engineers that design planes take NO account of maintenance! Anything from 50 screws where one will do, and on up. You name it, sometimes it seems like they make it harder on us than needed!
    Just my opinion, of course
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  10. #10
    When I was a child there were a couple of instruments in the house (no idea why...!) from WWII aircraft and they were luminous. No-one knew or cared about radiation from the radium paint used and they were painted by hand. Painters licked the brushes to get a good point I'm told - and sadly many died of mouth and tongue cancers.

    DaveQ
    'Always do sober what you say you'll do when you're drunk. It'll teach you to keep you mouth shut' - Ernest Hemingway

  11. #11
    SOH-CM-2017 DaveB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Pelsall, West Midlands
    Age
    60
    Posts
    3,533
    Yes.. the 'Radium Girls' is a well publicised account although in reality.. there are no real figures to show just how many suffered illness or died.

    I have 3 ASI's.. one off a Lancaster, one off a Hunter and one off a Wellington and it doesn't bother me much. The Wellington ASI has gone a little brown (the painted numbers and index) but otherwise looks ok. The Lanc and Hunter ASI's are in great shape. Most of the problems associated with radium painted gauges stems from their overall condition. If the paint is in good order, the instrument will generally be stable. The only worry is if the paint is powdery and falling off. None of my gauges will glow if exposed to light and after this length of time.. I'd not expect them to as the radium paint loses it's luminescent qualities after a while. It may still be killing you but you won't glow in the dark

    ATB
    DaveB

  12. #12
    An online vendor of instruments mentions they have cupboards of WW2 gauges which used to glow in the dark back then but don't now and Geiger counters don't even register a thing despite the sheer number of 'em.
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BendyFlyer View Post

    FWIW Not sure if you can see this but mid section top just below the glare shield you will see two black cylindrical objects angled left and right - they are the cockpit panel lights. If you look at the Mosquito you will see similar lights but the Mossie has a few more and to the left fuselage cockpit side as well to illuminate the engine control levers etc that were placed there. The Plane Design Lanc has these modelled into the VC but not as far as lights are concerned - I have no idea how you get that beam effect into FSX screens and judging by the drama that Visser had with the C-47 project I would say it is a problem because of the way light is run by texture files. Anyway that is all. Good luck with it all.
    I actually modified the Plane Design Lanc config in respect of the panel lighting. The change was pretty simple - you need the following iine in the [lights] section of the aircraft.cfg file (if you want to try this, DO back up the original cfg file first !) :

    light.nn = 4, 7.272, -1.02, 3.34, fx_navred

    where nn = any light number not yet used. You also need to remove any other "light.nn = 4" line

    Not sure it's strictly accurate in terms of direction, but it does give a nice overall red glow around the panel and cockpit area and makes the intruments readable without spilling outside.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Lanc III Night Lighting.jpg  

  14. #14
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    Interesting like that mod for the Lanc, will give it a go. Thanks.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BendyFlyer View Post
    Interesting like that mod for the Lanc, will give it a go. Thanks.
    It's a while since I did it, but I think that's the only change needed. I think that generates a source of red light somewhere near the FE position. I can see that I tried to generate several source of light to emanate from the actual cockpit lighting positions without much success. The main problem I found was in generating enough light in the cockpit to see the instruments without lighting up the exterior of the a/c as well !

  16. #16
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    Quote Originally Posted by DickB View Post
    It's a while since I did it, but I think that's the only change needed. I think that generates a source of red light somewhere near the FE position. I can see that I tried to generate several source of light to emanate from the actual cockpit lighting positions without much success. The main problem I found was in generating enough light in the cockpit to see the instruments without lighting up the exterior of the a/c as well !
    That worked a treat., thanks a lot. A mandatory mod on all my Plane Design Lancasters along with Ross McLennan's amazing variety of mods for different bombing operations and engine types not to mention paint jobs, scenery, missions etc. Illuminates the cockpit well but the nature of the PD Lancaster (it actually has a fully modelled interior) is that it does bleed a little light into the fuselage and gunner positions but hardly noticeable, but I like the effect.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BendyFlyer View Post
    That worked a treat., thanks a lot. A mandatory mod on all my Plane Design Lancasters along with Ross McLennan's amazing variety of mods for different bombing operations and engine types not to mention paint jobs, scenery, missions etc. Illuminates the cockpit well but the nature of the PD Lancaster (it actually has a fully modelled interior) is that it does bleed a little light into the fuselage and gunner positions but hardly noticeable, but I like the effect.
    Glad it worked for you. It does indeed bleed through internally, but my overriding consideration was to avoid the cockpit lighting up from the outside.

    I have some other mods you might like. I'll drop you a PM.

  18. #18
    SOH-CM-2017 BendyFlyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Country New South Wales Australia
    Posts
    488
    DICKB - Thanks all offers gratefully accepted. I have been doing a clean install and reinstall of the Ross McLennan stuff. I have about 6 weeks to get myself up to speed do have a go at the Dam Buster mission which were conducted in Mid May. I needed to weed out and sort out a lot of stuff involving 2D panels which by and large I do not use as I prefer the VC mode of simulation. I have also updated the Celestial Sextant gauge to the new one. By the time you have done that you have an amazing selection of Lancasters including the Canadian built models not to mention paints. I don't know why but the Plane Design Lancaster is without a doubt one of my favourites. When I have done the Dambusters stuff I am going to have a go at the grand tour by the Australian Lancaster from the UK across to America then across the Pacific and on to Australia for to wave the flag and show it off and raise funds for war bonds in Australia in WW2 so the celestial guage is going to be handy. Still working on the views so I can bring up the astrodome, navigator views by shift key but only so much time and I have already spent the best part of 3 days on the clean up etc.

  19. #19
    Wouldn't a fx_vclight_red.fx work as well or better? Just add it to the [lights] section, as shown. Make the coordinates just aft of the panel it's self, and you can change the brightness of it with the [Color] section in the Panel.cfg. I do something like this all time, simply because I happen to prefer green cockpit night lighting vs red. It's a personal preference, realistic or not.
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomTweak View Post
    Wouldn't a fx_vclight_red.fx work as well or better? Just add it to the [lights] section, as shown. Make the coordinates just aft of the panel it's self, and you can change the brightness of it with the [Color] section in the Panel.cfg. I do something like this all time, simply because I happen to prefer green cockpit night lighting vs red. It's a personal preference, realistic or not.
    Pat☺
    Hmmm. I don't see fx_vclight_red.fx in my effects folder, else I'm sure I would have used it ! Is it base FSX, or does it come with some addon ? I do see a fx_vclight_whi.fx, which I guess you could convert pretty easily to a red version, though I don't think I knew enough about fx files to do that when I made my light mod.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by BendyFlyer View Post
    DICKB - Thanks all offers gratefully accepted. I have been doing a clean install and reinstall of the Ross McLennan stuff. I have about 6 weeks to get myself up to speed do have a go at the Dam Buster mission which were conducted in Mid May. I needed to weed out and sort out a lot of stuff involving 2D panels which by and large I do not use as I prefer the VC mode of simulation. I have also updated the Celestial Sextant gauge to the new one. By the time you have done that you have an amazing selection of Lancasters including the Canadian built models not to mention paints. I don't know why but the Plane Design Lancaster is without a doubt one of my favourites. When I have done the Dambusters stuff I am going to have a go at the grand tour by the Australian Lancaster from the UK across to America then across the Pacific and on to Australia for to wave the flag and show it off and raise funds for war bonds in Australia in WW2 so the celestial guage is going to be handy. Still working on the views so I can bring up the astrodome, navigator views by shift key but only so much time and I have already spent the best part of 3 days on the clean up etc.
    I have to admit I haven't spent much time with the McLennan package. When I saw you had to fly the mission in the 2D cockpit that rather put me off. And I wasn't really happy with the flight model he used. But no doubt he put a helluva lot of work into it.

    Have to agree that the PD Lanc is still the best out there, even though it is long in the tooth. We keep trying to persuade Ed to release the native FSX version that he had on the stocks, but so far no luck

    I have sent you PM.

  22. #22
    My mistake, I apologize. I am pretty sure the default fx_vclight.fx is the red version. I always prefer to use the fx_vclight_grn.fx (green). There are many add-on light sets, like from Nick N., that have a variety of vclight colors available, all freeware. Might want to take a look in the library here, at Flightsim, Simviation, whatever your preferred site is
    Pat☺
    Fly Free, always!
    Sgt of Marines
    USMC, 10 years proud service.
    Inactive now...

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BendyFlyer View Post
    I have no idea how you get that beam effect into FSX screens and judging by the drama that Visser had with the C-47 project I would say it is a problem because of the way light is run by texture files.
    FYI, basically there are two types of 'light' that can be installed in an FSX VC. The first being the ambient type of light that can light up the whole VC or just parts of it depending on the position params. It is called in the aircraft.cfg via the [lights] section and can make use of the various default or custom 'fx_vclight*.fx' files that reside in the FSX/Effects folder.

    This is also the type of light that can mean 'the drama with the C-47' that you speak of. If one doesn't know about this FSX bug and is confronted with it 'on the job' a true drama indeed. This bug however only rears its ugly head if normal maps (bump maps) are used on top of the diffuse maps for VC textures. It just leaves a grey, non textured appearance on every object that has a bump map applied as soon as you turn the ambient light on. The C-47, in this case, still uses bump maps for the VC but *only* during the day.

    A secondary VC light source can be accomplished via special 'night' textures. As the name suggests these bitmaps are displayed only during dusk/night/dawn situations and are blended in with the diffuse maps. Here's where f.i. the 'beam effect' that you speak of regarding the Lancaster panel comes into play. Relatively easy to do as most paint programs today offer something like a light beam or splash to be displayed on top of a texture bitmap. It will darken the original and lets you create multiple natural looking light beams from any position and direction and in every size and strenght you'd see fit.

    In case of the Lancaster panel, together with the 'physical' appearance of the two lamps this will make for a striking effect during dusk/night/dawn and can be any color ( if you're inventive enough add a switch with which you can change the light from, say, white to red.. ;-)

    cheers,
    jan

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomTweak View Post
    My mistake, I apologize. I am pretty sure the default fx_vclight.fx is the red version. I always prefer to use the fx_vclight_grn.fx (green). There are many add-on light sets, like from Nick N., that have a variety of vclight colors available, all freeware. Might want to take a look in the library here, at Flightsim, Simviation, whatever your preferred site is
    Pat☺
    You may be right. I think I settled on the navred effect because the vclight didn't give me the result I wanted. But it was a long time ago

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Javis View Post
    FYI, basically there are two types of 'light' that can be installed in an FSX VC. The first being the ambient type of light that can light up the whole VC or just parts of it depending on the position params. It is called in the aircraft.cfg via the [lights] section and can make use of the various default or custom 'fx_vclight*.fx' files that reside in the FSX/Effects folder.

    This is also the type of light that can mean 'the drama with the C-47' that you speak of. If one doesn't know about this FSX bug and is confronted with it 'on the job' a true drama indeed. This bug however only rears its ugly head if normal maps (bump maps) are used on top of the diffuse maps for VC textures. It just leaves a grey, non textured appearance on every object that has a bump map applied as soon as you turn the ambient light on. The C-47, in this case, still uses bump maps for the VC but *only* during the day.

    A secondary VC light source can be accomplished via special 'night' textures. As the name suggests these bitmaps are displayed only during dusk/night/dawn situations and are blended in with the diffuse maps. Here's where f.i. the 'beam effect' that you speak of regarding the Lancaster panel comes into play. Relatively easy to do as most paint programs today offer something like a light beam or splash to be displayed on top of a texture bitmap. It will darken the original and lets you create multiple natural looking light beams from any position and direction and in every size and strenght you'd see fit.

    In case of the Lancaster panel, together with the 'physical' appearance of the two lamps this will make for a striking effect during dusk/night/dawn and can be any color ( if you're inventive enough add a switch with which you can change the light from, say, white to red.. ;-)

    cheers,
    jan
    Interesting. Though would not the night textures only display when FSX thinks it's night ? I like to fly late pm through dusk into night, and only turn on the panel lighting when I feel like it, not when FSX thinks it's dark.

Members who have read this thread: 1

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •