Update Douglas_C-47_Beta_V3.14 feedback and support topic

[MZee1960]

Hi guys,
Congrats to the developers on a very nice update to a model which rivalled the real-life version a while back already.

I may be just nit picking here, but although I never tried the wiper feature at all ever before - just by fluke I clicked the wiper switch on my last flight and discovered all works well (sound, animation) in all interior VC views, but I am only getting sound in exterior aircraft spot view - no animation. No big deal, but just thought I would mention this in this devoted thread.

Cheers,
MZ

[BendyFlyer]

There was some discussion at DC-3 Airways re the performance of the C-47 not quite being as per the book, the view was that the power scalar factor may not quite be correct, I am not sure about this and I am testing to come to my own conclusions. I have doubts about the calculations re power etc because I have the original DC-3/C-47 engine power charts from WW2 and post war RAAF manuals where power output was always to achieve a BHP outcome so the charts took a bit of interpolation to get the settings right. Perhaps not of great interest to the average simmer unless of course you trying to do a long range flight etc. Anyway I will reproduce the finding for consideration:

As per DC-3 Airways Aircraft Discussion:

" Changed the Power Scalar in the cfg file to .782
Doing a test flight right now.
Barometric pressure 30.18 in Hg
No wind
Mixture set to Auto Mixture in the sim
Fuel load all four tanks 50%= 2,412 lbs
Gross take off weight= 25,942 lbs.
Climb out at 35.7 MAP; 2325 RPM; initial climb 1,000 ft. pr. minute; change to 700 ft. pr. minute=113 knots indicated airspeed at 2,000 feet,; 107 at 3,000 ft; 102 at 4,000 ft; 100 at 5,000 ft.
Cruise at 5,500 feet with power settings of 30 MAP and 2,050 RPM= 138 Knots indicated.
So the power scalar changed to .782 seems to get the plane closer to what it should be, in my humble opinion. I will fly the plane with the above settings today in the MP flight to see how she behaves with company.
Howard
EDIT!
I just changed the Barometric Pressure to 29.92 but did not change to power settings and I am now getting 142 Knots Indicated Air Speed, so the Power Scalar changed to .782 is just about right on."

FWIW I am not recommending any change at present but it illustrates the issues with aircraft performance and the sim. I would expect slightly higher speeds say about 145-150 knots at this weight but it would require 31" MP not 30" and would require the aircraft to be accelerated to the cruise speed then the power reduced and mixture set. (Standard technique). I commonly see attempts to tweak performance as per the book but the 'book' was always for a brand new air frame and no damage or wear in the engines. As aircraft age they get lumps and bumps here and there, the engines are not pristine in terms of output and they get dirty etc, the props are bit worn or sluggish in operation, so all this adds up to increased drag or reduced performance. So beware when chasing so called tweaks or changes that try to emulate the book your Gooney Bird is old not new. I see no issues so far but then I am always happy with what I get providing it is within the numbers.

[ceo1944]

Expect an email from me shortly! Trying to get the next version of FSCaptain out right now, then tons of other stuff I have on my plate, but the Sperry shouldn't take long if we tag it right. I'll send instructions. I have the code just need to marry it to the instrument properly.

Speaking of which, here's the new beta featuring the incredible V3.14 DC-3 in the latest video I just made today as a tutorial for FSCaptain alpha testers: https://youtu.be/wFrlqstKCig

It's attacking a fire on a misty low-ceiling day near Olympia WA.

Enjoy! Feel free to post this movie link around if you want to.

Dutch

We'll take both issues along in the final update. Thanks for the tips !

Say, Dutch, any news on the Sperry AP ?....

cheers,
jan

[utmost]

Please post any feedback or support questions here.
Thanks.

First, a big thanks for this aircraft. It is my favorite, over and above the others (including payware).


I have roughly 40 hours flight time in v3.12. I did two flights yesterday (2hrs or so in total) in v3.14. I noticed the following issues (I hope I recall all the figures correctly):


1. I had an issue with chocks not dissappearing regardless of the setting in the control panel. However, they did dissappear on the second flight. I cant reproduce this anymore so I am not sure why they went away exactly. Now everything seems to work correctly.


Audio checklists:


2. When I start the "Before starting" checklist with parking brake set the co-pilot fails to recognize this. It does not help to release the break and set it again. However, if I release it and start the checklist again by clicking on the checklist title the co-pilot calls-out the parking break item, I set it, and the checklist proceeds correctly.


3. The co-pilot does not say "XXX checklist complete" anymore. It was a nice feature in my opinion.


4. Similarly to (2) I was not able to initate "After takeoff" checklist once in the air with gear up. Clicking on checklist title or the first item (gear) triggered the callout ("Landing gear"), but the checklist did not progress even though the gear is up. The checklist resumed if I tapped `g` twice quickly to lower and raise the gear.


The remaining observations I havw were taken when flying in clouds with -18C OAT, departing from KGTF (3680ft MSL), cruising alt 10'000ft. I tried to set up a similar flight today, but was able to replicate only (7). I was flying with real weather yesterday so it is possible I did not set all the weather parameters correctly today.


5. When applying full throttle on takeoff I was getting approx. 42'' MP (end of green arc) instead of 50+'' (end of yellow arc, as in v3.12). Is this intentional?


6. I did not turn carburator heat on from the start (I guess I should). Couple of minutes after takeoff the engines went suddenly to idle. There was no early warning of icing (should there be?). I turned carbheat and both anti-ice switches on, and the MP and RPM went slowly back up after some time (I almost crashed). It never happended to me with v3.12 before.


7. When flying at 10k feet at full throttle, mixture at auto-lean, and ~2100 prop RPM with carbheat and both anti-ice switches ON I noticed that I was able to get 32'' MP max (I think it was more in v3.12 as far as I recall).


8. Moreover, the MP seemed to slowly decrease over time. All in all, i was able to achieve only about 120kts IAS. It is less than in 3.12.


Perhaps some of these updates were intentional and I am just a lame pilot still :/ Nevertheless, I hope the above helps to make this marvelous aircraft even better!


Thanks!

[gray eagle]

Would like to see the startup effects include both the smoke and the flames from exhaust pipes.

Now, those effects were brought back and borrowed from V2 and added to the V3,14 beta effects.

The smoke effect works in P3d but the flame not so much. see # 78 for pictures.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...leased-!/page4

[SSI01]

Perhaps you did not yet add the effect fx_vclight_c47v3.fx to the Effects folder?
You will find it and the engine start up effects included in an Effects folder in the download.

Redownloaded the updated aircraft and reinstalled everything other than the aircraft itself. This time, for some reason, the proper effect "took" and everything is nicely bathed in a sultry red light for nocturnal operations.

Thanks again for the tip.

[mgr]

Hello Manfred,

After C&D you wouldn't normally set the cowl flaps to TRAIL, you would set them to full open (or make the checklist item 1.15 do it for you). Actually setting them to TRAIL in stationary condition will open them fully (value 8 in Monitor). This the checklist registers as correct, and respects your earlier decision and no harm done. The actual request to set cowl flaps to TRAIL comes at "Before Takeoff", p. 4.5., that's when it's really needed.

Just did a check with both 3.12 and 3.14 in automatic checklist.

3.12 -> As pilot have to set the Cowlflaps to open in "before start checklist", co-pilots set them to trail in "before take-off checklist"
3.14 -> As pilot have to set the Cowlflaps to open in "before start checklist", as pilot also have to set them to trail in "before take-off checklist"

Is this change as designed? Sorry to repeat my question yet got the feeling my question is not fully understand.

3. The co-pilot does not say "XXX checklist complete" anymore. It was a nice feature in my opinion.

+1!

Regards,

Marcel

[scotth6]

Hello Manfred,



Just did a check with both 3.12 and 3.14 in automatic checklist.

3.12 -> As pilot have to set the Cowlflaps to open in "before start checklist", co-pilots set them to trail in "before take-off checklist"
3.14 -> As pilot have to set the Cowlflaps to open in "before start checklist", as pilot also have to set them to trail in "before take-off checklist"

Is this change as designed? Sorry to repeat my question yet got the feeling my question is not fully understand.



+1!

Regards,

Marcel

Hi,

It is intentional that the pilot has to make this input. You can "ask" (tell) your co-pilot to do it for you by clicking on the item in the checklist. I'm not sure if this has changed since V3.12, but a lot of changes have been made, and this may be one of them.

Cheers,

[simondix]

Bendyflyer your post re the DC3 Airways thread was made in 2014 and refers to an earlier version.

[scotth6]

First, a big thanks for this aircraft. It is my favorite, over and above the others (including payware).


I have roughly 40 hours flight time in v3.12. I did two flights yesterday (2hrs or so in total) in v3.14. I noticed the following issues (I hope I recall all the figures correctly):


1. I had an issue with chocks not dissappearing regardless of the setting in the control panel. However, they did dissappear on the second flight. I cant reproduce this anymore so I am not sure why they went away exactly. Now everything seems to work correctly.


Audio checklists:


2. When I start the "Before starting" checklist with parking brake set the co-pilot fails to recognize this. It does not help to release the break and set it again. However, if I release it and start the checklist again by clicking on the checklist title the co-pilot calls-out the parking break item, I set it, and the checklist proceeds correctly.


3. The co-pilot does not say "XXX checklist complete" anymore. It was a nice feature in my opinion.


4. Similarly to (2) I was not able to initate "After takeoff" checklist once in the air with gear up. Clicking on checklist title or the first item (gear) triggered the callout ("Landing gear"), but the checklist did not progress even though the gear is up. The checklist resumed if I tapped `g` twice quickly to lower and raise the gear.


The remaining observations I havw were taken when flying in clouds with -18C OAT, departing from KGTF (3680ft MSL), cruising alt 10'000ft. I tried to set up a similar flight today, but was able to replicate only (7). I was flying with real weather yesterday so it is possible I did not set all the weather parameters correctly today.


5. When applying full throttle on takeoff I was getting approx. 42'' MP (end of green arc) instead of 50+'' (end of yellow arc, as in v3.12). Is this intentional?


6. I did not turn carburator heat on from the start (I guess I should). Couple of minutes after takeoff the engines went suddenly to idle. There was no early warning of icing (should there be?). I turned carbheat and both anti-ice switches on, and the MP and RPM went slowly back up after some time (I almost crashed). It never happended to me with v3.12 before.


7. When flying at 10k feet at full throttle, mixture at auto-lean, and ~2100 prop RPM with carbheat and both anti-ice switches ON I noticed that I was able to get 32'' MP max (I think it was more in v3.12 as far as I recall).


8. Moreover, the MP seemed to slowly decrease over time. All in all, i was able to achieve only about 120kts IAS. It is less than in 3.12.


Perhaps some of these updates were intentional and I am just a lame pilot still :/ Nevertheless, I hope the above helps to make this marvelous aircraft even better!


Thanks!

Hi,

I will try to answer some of your findings.

1/ There have been a number of users with this issue, and it is currently not known what the cause is. If you do encounter it again, please report back with as much detail about the flight as possible. It seems it may have something to do with loading the aircraft from a pre existing cold and dark saved state in the simulator.

2/ I haven't been able to reproduce this. Checklist has always worked flawlessly for me. Your report will be noted though!

3/ Agreed, it would be good to have the completion of the checklist confirmed.

4/ I haven't been able to reproduce this. I always start the "After Takeoff" checklist with gear and flaps already raised, and again it has performed flawlessly.

5/ 42" MP at 3500 feet is normal. You will get 50" at sea level. Manifold pressure will decrease with altitude, as it does IRL.

6/ It has been recommended that you turn Carb Heat on at 5 Degrees Celsius and below. I just learned that figure from another one of Manfred's posts, and it would seem this is real world practice, for this particular engine.

7/ and 8/ Manifold pressure will decrease with altitude. A lot of work has gone on to try and replicate real world numbers, by smarter people than me who have experience with the actual aircraft. While it may not be exactly right, the numbers in the sim should closely match those of the aircraft IRL. Of course improvement is constantly being strived for, so there will more than likely be more changes to come in future versions.


Cheers,

Scott

[mjahn]

Thanks Scott, what I can add is,

On 2/ Not quite sure if you have done this, but you have to click on line 1 or the title line on any page for the Checklist to get going from the beginning.

On 3/ "Completed" was killed because the checklist is wholly random access now, pages as well as items. So when should the acknowledgment come? When all items have a checkmark? (Not always the case). When you turn a page? (No.) But I'll take it on board, miss it myself.

[BendyFlyer]

Bendyflyer your post re the DC3 Airways thread was made in 2014 and refers to an earlier version.

That is correct, the power scalar that was being changed in the earlier version however remains unchanged. There will be some who do not think it is authentic performance, seems authentic to me and I have no need or feel that I should change a thing on this bird. Flies damn well and on the numbers as far as I am concerned.

[BendyFlyer]

RE UTMOST queries reference point 7. When flying at 10k feet at full throttle, mixture at auto-lean, and ~2100 prop RPM with carbheat and both anti-ice switches ON I noticed that I was able to get 32'' MP max (I think it was more in v3.12 as far as I recall)

This is correct for this engine at that altitude. The MP rises is a function of the increased air temperature and air being pushed into the carburettor from the engine manifold. It is normal to then see a slow reduction back to the correct or unboosted MP for the relevant altitude, the return to a normal MP for height is an indication that carburettor heat may no longer be required and can be deselected, if the MP then continued to drop again then that is an indication that ice is forming in the carburettor again and you should put it back on and leave it on until the aircraft is operating at a lower ambient temperature. FSX does model this however it is not as subtle as icing in real life can be so you will see jumps up and down in the sim.

FWIW and while I think of it, It may be worth mentioning that part of the cockpit checks and scans all pilots and especially IFR pilots should be doing is constant and regular checks of the OAT during all phases of flight and during your regular cockpit scans in the cruise as well. This is a little known point or one that is not emphasised much these days due to the proliferation of good de-icing equipment and turbine powered aircraft but it was critical in piston engined aircraft and is yet another facet of why this type of aeroplane required real pilot involvement and monitoring all the time. Fuel injected engines and supercharged engines did not really suffer from this problem but you can still ice up the inlets the same as you can in a turbine. Just the nature of the beast and the environment. FSX has significant limitations with respect to icing the same as it does for rain etc as these are very difficult dynamic parameters to model properly (ask any climate modeller).

[simondix]

I am going to try a Hump flight in the next couple of days so it will be interesting to see how it fares in comparison to the previous version.

[Gooneybird565]

First of all thank you to all the team for bringing this updated version of my favourite bird!
Few flights so far, as I have been away from my PC for a couple of days, but really like the new cockpit lightings, and on the path to discover the other goodies.

I do have a question... In P3D, the flights are recorded into the logbook as "Amphibian". From an identical problem with an aircraft from my FSX times, I did check the contact points, and to test, commented out the contact.10 and contact.11 lines. The test aircraft now logs the flight as "Fixed Wings".
Yes, I know, the built-in logbook is not that important, and I furthermore do use a spreadsheet file to log my flights, which also lets me have some statistics on the MP flights, Charter flights, Regular flights, Free flights with my VA, but my fault is being wishing to understand...
What are these two lines standing for? Water landing, belly landing, other?
Will experiment changing their class number to an other value (In P3D, the contacts points classes are: 0 = None, 1 = Wheel, 2 = Scrape, 3 = Skid, 4 = Float, 5 = Water Rudder), but any feed-back will be appreciated.

I also have some issues about speed and fuel consumption, but am testing different engine operation settings as collected here and there from various manuals and procedures of the related era.

Once again, many thanks guys for this jewel!

Blue skies
Philippe - DCA565

[ncooper]

Hello Philippe,

I believe that the lines were added to allow a belly landing, at the request of one of the beta testers.
I would guess that there would be no harm in commenting them out.

[DCA1161]

Mixture again. On a testflight today I started with using manual-mixture (first time). Goodperformance on power and speed (I have made remarks on speed before, but I amhappy with this). Both mixtures are on one leaver. During the flight I changedto auto-mixture. Immediate at difference between engine#1and #2 in airflow (83<->74) and I get warning from my flysim that my engine is losing power. Speed drops with about 5 kn. Looks like for me auto-mixtureonly works correct on one engine.
Roy

[banjoman1960]

Hello Philippe,

I believe that the lines were added to allow a belly landing, at the request of one of the beta testers.
I would guess that there would be no harm in commenting them out.

Yes Nick,these lines are for the bellylanding.......
The Betatesters request was me....,try to do a emergencylanding .........if you do it carefull,it work now........

[Bjoern]

Since you guys are discussing performance...is there a noticable difference between the DC-3 and C-47 at the same weight?
I can imagine that the astrodome and wingtip extensions might add a bit of drag.

[Gooneybird565]

@ncooper and banjoman1960
Thank you for the feed-back. Will check what happens when changing the contact point class...
Roscoe (you know, that mecanician usually proclaiming that the pilots who would damage one of his birds would endure more than hell) reminds to all of us that our aircrafts are equipped with a landing gear, and that we should use it whenever possible, otherwise

@Bjoern,
Not a specialist on that subject, but C-47 is just but the military version of the DC-3, thus few differences.
The astrodome was used for navigation with a tool most sailors did know pretty well, the sextant...
Most DC-3's and C-47 were fitted with 1200HP engines, whereas some military versions were fitted with more powerful ones (1350HP I believe).

Blue skies
Philippe

[mjahn]

Mixture again. On a testflight today I started with using manual-mixture (first time). Goodperformance on power and speed (I have made remarks on speed before, but I amhappy with this). Both mixtures are on one leaver. During the flight I changedto auto-mixture. Immediate at difference between engine#1and #2 in airflow (83<->74) and I get warning from my flysim that my engine is losing power. Speed drops with about 5 kn. Looks like for me auto-mixtureonly works correct on one engine.

Yes,with one engine running at f/a 0.83 you would be losing losing power when climbing to higher altitudes.

This is a very puzzling error, so I'd be interested if it is experienced by other simmers. It didn't come up in the test phase, and I cannot replicate it.

In order to track what's happening it is important to consider the questions I asked earlier, namely,

1) Obviously, something's seriously wrong with the mixture, f/a should stand at 0.74 ... you don't have Automixture ON in General Settings by any chance, have you?

2) Since you mention "others", is this a multiplayer session? (that's one of my prime suspects as of late).

To which I'll now add:

3) In Monitor does the mixture value constantly update itself?

4) With the a/c freshly selected and on ground, try setting AR and AL without using your hardware lever, either via Monitor or the VC levers and checking the resulting f/a values?

5) In flight, try synching the engines by clicking on Monitor > Engines.

As you have noted, if all else fails you can select manual mode.

[MZee1960]

Does anyone know how to do this ? I had a few VC's in the V3.12 with black seats and seatbelts, but somehow all of them are showing the seats as brown with blue seatbelts now. The VC's are fine otherwise.

I am using the 'fallback' method to point FSX to the VC repaint containing those exact 18 files and done exactly as noted here by Nick :
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...=1#post1068881

I suspect I may have to add a new file to Nick's list to get the black seats and seatbelts as perhaps these were somehow changed/overwritten in going from V3.12 to V3.14 ?

Cheers,
MZ

[ncooper]

I think the seat textures are in vvc_1.dds
If they are all the same, have a look at vvc_1.dds in the (common) texture folder.
If you use the fallback method, any repaint without the seat texture in it will use those in the texture folder.

[MZee1960]

I think the seat textures are in vvc_1.dds
If they are all the same, have a look at vvc_1.dds in the (common) texture folder.
If you use the fallback method, any repaint without the seat texture in it will use those in the texture folder.

Hi Nick,

No luck, I'm afraid.

No matter which route I tried, I can't get away from the brown seats with blue seatbelts. Gman's black interior file worked fine in V3.12 using the 'fallback' method. In this V3.14 it also works fine except the seats are brown and have blue seatbelts. For some reason this texture file for the brown seats with blue seatbelts seems to take precedence over anything else. All the night lighting works fine, BTW.



Here's the link to gman's black interior pics :
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...=1#post1036539

[speedy70]

Mzee I brought this up with Jan re the seat colours and this is the reason he quoted.

Yes, some VC textures needed to be changed because of the FSX bug that prevents bumpmaps to be used with the default ambient vclighting. Most important bumpmap stuff has therefore been placed on a special bitmap. It is called 'vvc_2bump.dds' and comes along with the bump and spec maps as well of course. The images for these items on the older bitmaps are therefore no longer used. They are still on the current 'vvc_1.dds' and 'vvc_4.dds' but obviously won't turn up in the V3.14 VVC anymore.

Hope this explains OUR problem and gives you an answer.I also understand the matter is however being attended.

Cheers Chris