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  1. #26

    AD2k Prop disk with prop blurs

    Hello Smilo,
    My progress with AD2k is slow but nonetheless sure, you will be pleased to note, and my initial sensations of frustration are dwindling as the habit of doing things differently sets in. At the moment, after adding a narrowing nose to the tutorial flying box, Iīm doing the animated prop.

    As alpha transparency texturing for propdisks wonīt work for FS98 or CFS1, these apparently have to be done only as glass. I believe this is correct - unless of course it isnīt, and thereīs a better way I donīt know of...

    This has also led me to believe that it is possible and convenient to implement Ivanīs rotating prop blurs, which is what I am experimenting with now!

    More later!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp.

  2. #27
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    yes, i am glad you're making progress
    and that frustration is dwindling.
    trust me, there's plenty more where that came from.

    as for prop blurs...the mind is a blur.
    BUT, i do recall they are possible.
    dang...i hate constant referring to the 196,
    but, it's the only example i've got
    and i believe it has variable prop blur.

    how about a screen shot
    of that narrowing nose flying box?
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  3. #28
    Hello Smilo,
    As yet, the prop-blur isnīt on yet, and neither is the prop animation nor the bleed-preventing sequencing.

    But... One can see the altered nose. I added a sub-assembly with another square-cross-sectioned dice, and I edited the faces to slant all sides inwards toward the front, the top slant shallower than the bottom one - like an uneven truncated pyramid on its side.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chien-du-Ciel.jpg  

  4. #29
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    let's see...
    when you assemble this beastie,
    sequence first, the starboard wing and horizontal stabilizer,
    then, the fore and aft fuselage,
    finally, the port wing and horiz stabilizer.
    everything will look correct from the port side view, right?
    isn't this were jump lanes come in?
    basically, reversing the assembly sequencing,
    so it looks correct from the starboard view.
    of course, then, there's the forward and aft views to jump plane.

    it's been such a long time...
    am i on the right track?
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  5. #30
    Hello Smilo,
    Sheesh! like Ivan would say... a sequence for every viewing direction whenever a string of parts is involved...
    Sounds very logical, I suppose, and then, from above (pilotīs head, canopy and such) and below (landing gear struts, fairings and wheels and the under-wing we have yet 2 more - a total of 6 sequences.
    I donīt know what Iīve let myself in for!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  6. #31
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    in a word...tedium.

    although, i'm not sure if it's all that bad.
    again, as i recall, there is a copy/paste feature
    that is a very helpful time saver.
    remember, backup, backup, backup.
    the last thing you want is to loose everything
    because of a compilation error or some such.
    been there, done that...more than once.

    as i said before, it gets easier as you go along.
    granted, it requires a certain anal retentive,
    excessive compulsive personality,
    but, the reward is well worth the effort.
    a high quality, complex model with no bleeds.
    who here could ask for more?

    of course, after building one,
    there's always the milo option,
    walk off into the wilderness,
    never to build again.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  7. #32
    Hello Smilo,
    Ha ha! I wasnīt complaining - thanks for your comment. Yes, Iīve got into the habit of saving 2 or 3 previous steps with backups to avoid problems.
    I didnīt know the paste option, and also, that the vertices in a polygon chain are mouseable.
    Anyway, itīs getting to be fun, which is most important.
    Today Iīll probably start with the sequencing.
    Cheers, and many thanks for your helpful comments!
    Aleatorylamp

  8. #33

    Question on null vectors

    Hello Smilo,
    Iīm running into trouble with the propeller turning axis.
    The tutorial uses a null vector, but it is on the 0,0,0 centreline, and my propeller is 1.5 upwards.

    A null vector for the propeller axis makes the prop rotate off centre, and no matter what I enter into the propeller axis vector, I cannot correct it. It always puts it to one side and too low, and when I change it, it never puts it where I need, even if I define the 2 points of the vector.

    Iīm trying to define a straight line vector for the centre of the propeller, which is at 14.700 forwards, 1.500 up and 0.000 sideways.

    Anyway, for the moment Iīve bent the nose and moved the propeller down so that it accepts the null vector, and itīs turning around the 0,0,0 axis.į

    So the question is, whether the propeller rotation needs an instruction different from RUN PROP when the axis is not on the 0,0,0 aircraft line. I tried the Translate/Rotate instruction, but it doesnīt shoe the prop animation.

    I hope all this questioining is not too tedious for you.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 14th, 2017 at 06:03.

  9. #34
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    no, the questions are not tedious.
    i just woke up and haven't had my coffee, yet.
    sorry, i'm drawing a total blank.

    i guess i'm going to have to dig out
    196 construction screen shots, aren't i?
    i wonder if the answer is there?

    i have some errands to run today,
    so, i might not get to it until later this afternoon.


    off topic;
    yesterday, i played around with a new layout
    for the do17 nose/bomb aimer view.
    it's very basic, but, it's a start.
    i've never done one from scratch before.

    coffeeee.......


    hang on...
    why does building a 0,0,0 and vectoring ring a bell?
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  10. #35
    Hello Smilo!
    Ha ha! Good morning. ...Iīve just had lunch.

    No hurry!


    I suppose a null vector is aligned with the aircraftīs 0,0,0 axis, and if one wants a higher engine, the vector has to be raised.
    The funny thing is that it wonīt accept it and does all sorts of wierd positions.

    If anything, Iīll keep the propeller on the 0,0,0 axis pf the plane. At least that works.
    The tutorial does mention, however, that the null vector is not a good solution sometimes, and that the rotation/translation option can be used, but it is not so straight forward, so they leave it for later.

    So, I suppose I shouldnīt jump the gun and be patient as things develop. When I finish the RFO tutorial, Iīll do the Ugly100 one, which seems a little more explicit. Probably itīs good to absorb things bit by bit.


    I can see that AF99 has automated A LOT of things, and I suppose that it is not possible to automate everything perfectly, hence its limitations. Then, on the other hand, the greater possibilities offered by AD2k do entail a far greater input of detail on the part of the builder, and this has to be assimilated in chewable chunks for the learner.

    Cheers,

    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 14th, 2017 at 08:36.

  11. #36
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    remember i said, i found a folder
    of the 196 project screen shots?
    well, after digging around for an hour yesterday,
    i finally found it....again.
    i decided to get smart and moved it
    to an easy to access location.
    that's the good news.
    there are shots showing calls
    like jump prop, range, glass textures,
    fore and aft prop, seals and run prop,
    and vector, all for the ugly100.
    more, good news.

    the bad news is,
    i don't know what it means.
    i can only guess, there is more information
    in the ugly100 tutorial.
    ...looking closer, i see aftprop and foreprop sub assemblies,
    which are parts views and jump planes for sequencing calls,
    the proprun sub assembly seems to deal with the disk.
    sorry, that's all i've got so far.
    i guess i could dig into the 196 project files
    and send you that stuff if you would like.
    who knows, you might be able to glean something of use.

    a couple other things...
    i'm reminded of my dissatisfaction
    with the ad2k wing build feature.
    in a word, the templates sucked.
    as it turned out, Ivan sent a better wing,
    which i gladly used.

    also, be careful with the number
    of sub assemblies used in a master project.
    not only does it get confusing,
    but, as i recall, there was a glitch
    if there got to be too many.
    all of a sudden, the names disappeared...fun.
    i ended up doing several master projects.
    for example, wings, tail, struts, floats,
    cowl, et cetera, all to be joined later.
    not only did it keep the build visually cleaner,
    it solved the disappearing names glitch.

    i guess, at this point, i'd recommend
    moving on to the ugly100 tutorial,
    unless you want to work on
    jump plane sequencing.

    i think i'll go look through some 196 project files.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  12. #37
    Hello Smilo,
    Thanks for your comments! Similar to your recommendation, I immediately followed the tutorial suggestion of inserting whole separate sections, each with their own animated parts. This way I donīt get to the maximum sub-assembly number.

    With the RFO (I called it CubeFly) I decided to continue with putting in moving ailerons, rudder and elevators just to get the hang of usind the vectors for hinges, which had me completely stumped at the beginning.

    The same problems had occurred with the texture support templates, so I textured the whole plane with my own textures - all except the ailerons, and Iīm getting the hang of that too.

    Hereīs a screenshot - it doesnīt look very good... I havenīt been able to do anything with the jump plane sequencing yet, as I got into trouble with simpler things first! Iīm also going to do the landing gear for it, to get some more practice with vectors for the hinges and the wheels.

    Incidentally, in theory I can understand the jump plane sequencing code, but applying it to the CubeFly model is going to be too hard for me as yet, so Iīll follow your suggestion and move on to the Ugly100 tutorial before I attempt to eliminate the bleeds from the CubeFly.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CubeFly.jpg  

  13. #38
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    when you get to doing textures,
    remind me to send a nifty grid bmp
    that hubba created.
    it really helps visualizing texture layouts.

    as a personal preference,
    i like the odd colored parts when building,
    as it makes for easier parts alignment visibility.

    thinking about it a little more,
    it might not be a bad idea,
    to stick with the cubefly
    when learning the jumpplane process
    because it's such a simpler model.

    ps...i found the 196 cowl/spinner/prop.3dm.
    let me know if you would like me to send a copy.
    funny, i'm almost curious enough
    to fire up ad2k and have a look at them.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  14. #39
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    okay, i couldn't resist...
    i fired up ad2k.
    it doesn't seem to matter
    that i have other things to do.
    first noticed, so much has been lost
    to inactivity and time.

    by chance, have you clicked on the help button?
    there's a hell of a lot of information in the index.
    so much so, it might be overwhelming.
    take your time, you can do it.
    (the help file is also opened, in french or english,
    by clicking on the ? GRAPHEDIT.HLP file,
    located in the main AD2000.5 folder)

    first, i looked at propeller and all related calls.
    then, i scrolled down to tutorial.
    most, if not all, questions will be answered there,
    including keyboard short cuts...a real time saver.

    i just noticed something i'd forgotten.
    see the icons bellow the menu bar,
    notice the fourth and fifth icons,
    create new chain and edit chain,
    followed closely by a delete button.
    as i recall, i used the edit chain button quite a lot.
    BE CAREFUL!! that delete button is very close.
    when in a hurry, i've accidentally clicked it many times.
    if i had the source code to this program,
    i'd move that damned button to the end of the line,
    somewhere way out of the way.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  15. #40
    Hello Smilo,
    Yes, thanks, itīs a dangerous button, the delete button! Also the X in the Model Editor!
    ...and, OK, it may be a good idea to implement the jump plane sequence for the CubeFly project.

    Yes, the help file is quite comprehensive. At first, it wasnīt working through the top menu bar in the Graphic Editor, but now it does! I copied the 3 files English help files from the main AD2k directory to the specific working aircraft directory.

    You are right, thereīs a lot of information there, and Iīm slowly progressing. I still have to see how the cut and paste thing works in the Model Directory so that one wonīt have to write everything so many times for the jump plane sequences.

    Fopr the moment, I donīt think you have to send me anything - thereīs a lot to do and inspect with the info at hand.

    At the moment Iīm trying to sort the Gear door, which instead of having assigned the left and right Oy axis, automatically gets the Ox axis, and moves badly, although the vector is good. For the moment Iīve included them in the Gear assemblies, although they share those hinges instead of having their own.

    Anyway... Iīll keep you posted!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  16. #41
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    please do keep us posted
    as to the gear door progress.
    i worked on it back during the uncompleted a-20 days.
    that was waaay back there.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  17. #42
    Hello Smilo,
    Itīs never really too late, is it?
    On one hand, I feel I should have got my teeth into Ad2k long ago, but on the other, Iīm still quitewary about complicated bleed-avoiding jump plane sequences. It leads me to appreciate AF99īs automated process a little more, even if it has its shortcomings.

    Actually, thinking about it on the tram back from classes, I thought I would like to have a look into your "196 cowl/spinner/prop.3dm" file, to see how you did things, so Iīd take you up on your kind offer!

    This morning I put a tail skid on the CubeFly... big deal - I want to convert it into a textured tail-wheel now. Retractable? Well... I donīt knopw yet.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  18. #43
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    at the risk of getting ahead of ourselves,
    on the help file contents tab, go to,
    model editor, model editor instructions,
    and open, test instructions, select and open
    example of use of the jump plane instruction.
    this page puts the sequencing process in perspective

    don't worry about entering the 5 jump plane instructions,
    they can be easily inserted...
    But, you will have to fill in the information.
    that's the hard part,
    but, as i've said before,
    the results are worth the effort.

    attached are the cowl/prop/spinner 3DM files
    and an image of the untextured finished product.
    there is also, a bumps 3DM for the valve covers.
    just unzip and drop the folder into the main ad2k folder.
    you can navigate to and open each 3DMwith in ad2k,
    but, when you close them,
    be sure to click yes to save changes
    or the program might delete the contents.

    i hope this helps...have fun
    Attached Files Attached Files
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  19. #44
    Hello Smilo,
    Thank you very much for the cowl and prop source files. How interesting!
    Iīve just had a look. What is amazing is the level of detail allowed. The smooth bumps on the engine cowl are so rich in triangles they would be impossible to make in AF99! Despite the tremendous amount of work involved, it certainly makes for a very detailed aircraft!
    Interesting too the prop blurs.

    Cosmetic improvement on CubeFly: Iīve managed to take out the ugly joint between the "dice" centre fuselage and the narrower oval cross-sectioned tail-part, and instead of making the whole fuselage round, (Iīd have had to change the planeīs name from "CubeFly" to "TubeFly"!!), I aligned the tail poligons with the 4 corners of the dice, and it worked! I looks cleaner - like a flying boxcar with a round tail end. Anyway, it was good practice.

    Now, the tutorial proposes turning wheels, but Iīll give that one a miss because thereīs no point - thatīs only for FS2000.

    OK! - Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  20. #45
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    i like that you modified the design.
    that's what the program is about.
    to be honest, you carried on
    with the cube much farther than i did.

    i'm glad that you liked the 3DMs.
    i could talk for hours
    about the potential for detail,
    or, actually, show it to you.
    i'm, in no way, suggesting
    that you get as carried away.
    instead, just demonstrating what can be done.

    granted, the program falls short
    in a few areas...for example,
    lights and animated wheels.
    i never experimented with them.
    i also had a problem with animated spoilers,
    which i wanted to use as bomb bay doors.
    but, i chalked it up to user error.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  21. #46
    Hello Smilo,
    Yes, itīs looking a bit better than the original. Thatīs why I want to do a decent Jump Plane sequence, and any screenshots I post wonīt be so disastrously riddled with bleeds.

    The bigger prop and longer gear also look better, and it still needs the blur, and also an improvement on the gear retraction, because the wheels now end up tucked into the inside of the fuselage! A fuselage wheel-door may be fine, and then I have to figure out how to make the gear disappear when tucked in. ...with the RANGE instruction, as used on the disappearing blades and appearing propdisk.

    I looked into the Help file, and found the chapter on Jump Planes quite clarifying. The PLANE + its vector is reminiscent of the glue templates in AF99, and the Jump Plane + vector are the viewing directions. Now I have only to decypher the lingo to use!

    As regards turning wheels, like in FS98, in CFS1 they arenīt supported anyway, and as far as lights go, as Ivan says, whoīs going to need them anyway? Nobody dogfights at night!!

    All very interesting. ...and than you very much for your comments and encouragement!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  22. #47
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    whether you realize it or not,
    and, i'm sure you do,
    you are gently pulling me back
    into the world of ad2k design.
    the problem is, i know myself too well.
    i'm not sure if i can manage
    the balancing act required.
    without sounding morbid or defeatist,
    i'm old. i have a limited amount of time left
    and there are far too many irons in the fire.
    i do not like to do things half assed,
    which in turn requires time and patience.
    i'm sure yo can see the vicious circle.
    so much for my excuses...

    i agree, af99 and ad2k have similarities.
    although, i'm not that familiar with af99.
    i believe it is important to look closely
    at seals and how they function.
    they are critical to the sequencing process.
    if i'm not mistaken a proper jump plane
    sequence has five sections corresponding
    to the three, fore/aft, side to side and up/down views
    with two more sections to tie them all together.

    it's kinda funny, i was thinking about it this morning.
    i recall, a few weeks ago, someone said,
    we each have our little nitch of expertise.
    for me, the tedious, assembly process
    was the most enjoyable part of building.
    scaling and reworking drawings was the worst.
    at the time, i would have liked nothing better,
    than collaborating with a master parts builder.
    someone to build gnats ass accurate parts,
    with no worries about limits.
    send them to me and i would put the puzzle together.
    of course, that never happened, i got burned out,
    and walked away from the program
    with two projects left unfinished.
    so it goes.

    okay, enough of that.

    if you don't mind my saying or suggesting,
    concentrate on one aspect at a time.
    ie, gear location, prop, animation or jump plane.
    figure it out, and then move on to the next phase.
    take your time, be patient, enjoy the learning process.
    easy for me to say, mister scattered in all directions.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  23. #48
    Hello Smilo,
    Ha ha! I donīt know if itīs good or bad that Iīm the cause of your being gently pulled back into the world of AD2k design...

    OK, I understand how you feel. Donīt feel pushed - Iīm not sure myself if I want to do all this on the long run - even the author said in the introduction that to use AD2k for FS98/CFS1 is a tedious job.

    Anyway, with the Jump Plane instruction, it seems rather confsing - looks like itīs used all over the place, and not only in the main section before the list of sub-assies. In the tutorials there are even sequences within a sub-assy! Iīll get it sorted out, though.

    Funny how you prefer to sort out the puzzle of sequencing, and Iīd rather just build the pieces, parts and sections for darn thing!

    At the moment Iīm trying to sequence the spinner, the prop, the prop-axel and the fuselage body, in that order seen from the front, and inverse when seen from the back. Letīs see what happens.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  24. #49
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    well, jump plane seems logical to me.
    if a sub assembly contains parts
    that can bleed through each other
    at different view angles...why not
    run them through jump plane sequencing
    before adding them to the main assembly,
    which in turn, is a group of sub assemblies
    that can bleed through each other
    at different view angles.
    basically, stopping bleeds within bleeds.
    tedious? yes. but, i can't see a better way
    to create a complex, clean, bleed free model.
    for example, imagine the cowl, prop, spinner
    assembly. imagine it with
    the valve cover bumps added.
    now, imagine that main assembly
    without the individual parts in each "bump"
    sequenced via the jump plane process.
    in my opinion, a mess would be putting it mildly.

    okay, about ordering your spinner, prop, axle and fuselage
    in order of forward view...why not?
    problem, i'm not sure you can duplicate s
    ub assemblies within a main assembly.
    i'm sure you can't...that's what jump plane is for.
    just for fun, though, compile the model
    with the subs in forward visual order,
    then, with them in rear view order,
    just to see how they look.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  25. #50
    OK, Smilo, thanks!
    I was wondering the same, within subassemblies, how to have access to call others. But Iīll try from outside only first, i.e. from the top of the list in the model editor.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

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