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Thread: Project Dornier Do-17z2

  1. #101
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    as always, this is a touchy subject.
    one walks a tightrope between
    historical accuracy of the model,
    and repugnance for what the symbol stands for,
    or worse, supporting what it stands for.
    then, there's the fear of people
    misinterpreting your intentions.
    we walk a fine line indeed.
    how does one go about having it both ways?

    over the years, i've seen many options,
    none of which has appealed to me.
    back in my multi-player days,
    i was kommander of the luftwaffe wing.
    not because of ideology, but,
    because there was a game vacancy
    that needed to be filled.
    i repainted my fw190 tail symbol,
    adding four lines, turning it into
    what looked like a diamond window.
    i don't know if it was ever noticed
    and, yes, it was kinda hokie,
    but, it served my purpose.

    okay, enough stories.
    the question is what to do.
    how about providing two sets of textures?
    one, historically accurate,
    the other, unoffensive...politically correct.
    provide the option and let the individual decide.

    in the end, it's the artist's decision.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  2. #102
    Hello Smilo, Hello Ivan,
    Iīm glad Iīve not taken the lid off a pressure cooker with the emblem issue, and that there is not as much ill feeling about it as I thought. Neither does there seem to be much pressure in the opposite direction - i.e. in favour.

    Anyway, in all these years I have never made a plane with the swastika on it, and donīt really want to start now.
    Itīs a pity that Hitler took property of a sign with remarkably positive connotations as it was with the Indians and other cultures, and seemingly turned the hooks the other way around. The Hooked Cross, "Hackenkreuz", then acquired such vile connotations, that I have a thing about it, Iīm afraid.

    The eagle is much nicer anyway!

    Ivan, I did mistake the reasoning behind your query about the Nose/Fuselage division line, but I also did understand your suggestion that by just exchanging the nose from this line frontwards, one could have about 4 different variants!

    Anyway, it did not take more than 20 minutes to experiment and discard a different layout involving re-grouping the parts and defining the Nose Group from that division line to the front. Didactically it was instructing anyway, and I did not by any means get upset about it!

    In any case, with all the ups and downs experimentating possibilities, at the moment the build seems very pleasing.
    Apart from the textures, that now have markings on them, the only build difference with the last model I posted to the model in its present state, is the rear gun, whose barrel is in Canopy High Wing.

    I think Iīll tackle the paneling next, which will be a little arduous, before I post a new model update.

    Smilo, have you discovered any issues flying the plane? Let me know if you have any preferences as to how it behaves.
    After fine-tuning the .air file to fit the engine and aircraft parameters as closely as possible to specified power and performance, I also increased the MOIīs, as the AI Do-17 from which the .air file came from, seemed far too light.

    OK, got to rush - I have a class!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  3. #103
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    here's a novel idea.
    leave vertical stabilizers blank.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  4. #104
    Hello Smilo,
    Well, that could be an option, but Iīd prefer to put something on it.
    How about the Eisernes Kreuz - Iron Cross? It could be cooler than
    the Eagle, which may be a bit kitschy.

    Then another possibily better one Iīve seen, is simply a black "X"
    inside a
    white diamond, which actually looks quite good, and is
    similar to your older solution of a kind of window.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails X2.jpg  
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 1st, 2017 at 05:39.

  5. #105
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    i'm sorry to say,
    i'm less than ecstatic about the black X.
    it just doesn't seem to fit.
    my opinion, of course.

    i do like the Eisernes Kreuz,
    except, there seems to be
    an over abundance of iron crosses on the aircraft.
    one more, even though different,
    seems to be a bit much.
    again, just my opinion.

    i forgot to mention earlier,
    my apologies...i am unable
    to give the bird a decent wringing out.
    at this time, i fly with keyboard only,
    and have forgotten most of the commands.
    it feels like a major accomplishment
    if i can get her into the air
    and trim to fly straight and level,
    which, by the way, has always been a challenge.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  6. #106
    Hello Smilo,
    Well, the Iron Cross was on the tails of German WW1 aircraft and is the Luftwaffe symbol now, so there are lots around!
    The problem with the black X is that it doesnīt exist, so itīs a reason not to put it on.
    Anyway, Iīll see what I decide. Perhaps if anything, the best option is nothing, as you suggested before!!

    Donīt worry about the testing while flying.
    At any rate, your opinions have given fruitful results. Thanks!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  7. #107
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    thank you, Stephan, i'm glad to have been
    able to help in some small way.

    the more i think about it,
    the more i lean toward nothing.

    i just had a semi funny thought...
    leave it at nothing, with the exception
    of 1 pixel dots where each
    of the 20, right angles would be.
    therefore, if someone wanted it,
    they could follow the dots with Paint
    (or any other like program)
    and fill it in themselves.

    finally, the only good reason
    i can see for adding the symbol,
    would be so there is a good target
    for pilots to blow the hell out of.

    just a few more opinions, of course.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  8. #108
    Just my opinion, but the German Eagle seems more appropriate for a bird from the Great War era.
    The Black X on a while background looks too much like the Spanish Air Force from their Civil War in my opinion.
    There are lots of other options, so perhaps one can still be found that is suitable.

    Perhaps a Greek Letter Delta or Phi or something like what I attached?
    The first is just a "non-Swastika" and the other is a German "High Cross".
    Perhaps a Nordic / Germanic Rune?
    A Russian letter?

    How about a Greek Lambda in honour of the Spartans?

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CrossEmblem.bmp  

  9. #109
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    good one, Ivan.
    cast my vote for
    "The first is just a "non-Swastika"."
    simple, and yet,
    just different enough
    so as not to be offensive.
    maybe, it should be called
    the swas-T-ika
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  10. #110

    Old Times

    Sorry for a minor change in topic but I thought it was interesting in any case:

    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...nother-project

    Interesting how far we have come in a couple years. ....or in the case of my own projects, perhaps not.

    - Ivan.

  11. #111
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    ...or, in my case, a lot of talk,
    with nothing to show for it.

    -partially complete japanese carrier
    -partially complete destroyer
    -partially complete liberty ship
    -partially completed a-20
    -gave up, but, still think about,
    building a physical a-20 model.
    gave up when i couldn't get
    scaled drawings from my printer.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  12. #112
    Hello folks,
    Sometimes one gets stuck and itīs hard to continue "production", but then, a small success spurs one on to continue.
    Anyhow,there are so many other things requiring our attention that it can take time...

    Well! I agree with Smilo and really like Ivanīs symbol for tea - err.. -sorry the 4 "T" symbol. So Iīll use that one! Thanks.
    I was trying to find out what kind of cross it is, but havenīt found any cross-variants of this "non-swastika 4 T" type. Do you know the name?

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  13. #113
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    gosh, a new unused symbol?
    how cool would that be?
    there has to be someone
    or group somewhere,
    that's used it at some point in time.
    i'm intrigued

    quick...patent it
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  14. #114

    "X for tea" on the fins! V7.

    Hello Smilo, hello Ivan,
    Ha ha! For the moment itīll be the "X for tea" symbol!

    OK, Iīve just put bars on the ends of the black-on-white cross (I agree with Ivan,
    itīs very much like the Spanish Civil War marking - I hadnīt thought that far).
    The 4-T X symbol looks very cool and is very discrete.

    Thanks a lot! Hereīs the model again - this time V7, for your fun in the meantime...
    Iīm still working on hairline cracks and lines of pearls, and I havenīt forgotten
    the extra windows...


    Cheers,
    Aletorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails X-for-tea-.jpg   X-for-tea.jpg  
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 2nd, 2017 at 06:05.

  15. #115
    Hello folks!
    Iīve been a bit lazy lately, but am resuming the build.
    Re. the extra cheek and chin windows on the right side of the nose, Iīm trying to make that part of the nose section similar to the Baltimore, so that the windows are of the same transparent type as the nose glazing, with a visible cabin interior. Hopefully I can fit a grey bulkhead behind that with no bleeds.
    Letīs see how it goes.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 8th, 2017 at 05:15.

  16. #116
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    hello Stephan, nice to see you back.
    i hope the break was beneficial.

    last night, i was watching the series, World at War.
    it was the Britain Stands Alone episode.
    there were film clips of Do17s taking off
    and the nose windows were right there.
    i'd never noticed them before.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  17. #117
    Hello Smilo,
    Yes, sometimes one just doesnīt see everything at the first few glances.
    Itīs proving very hard indeed to find a bleed-free way to make the extra windows transparent, and Iīm trying out different build combinations for the 4 front fuselage components (from the leading edge forwards).
    If the worst comes to the worst, I may have to revert to texturing them after all. That way we will have the lesser of the evils...
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp.

  18. #118
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    i think you know how i feel about it,
    but, i'll repeat it anyway,
    it's your hobby...your project.
    make it easy on yourself.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  19. #119
    Hello again, Smilo,
    Thanks for your moral support!
    I just canīt get a bleedfree forward fuselage to have the extra transparent windows.
    Well, so textured versions on the right nose are shown in one screenshot below, and the left side also has a little textured window to be seen on the other screenshot, just below and aft of the trailing edge.
    I wonder if this is OK?
    Cheers,
    Aleatoryulamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails window-l.jpg   windows-r.jpg  

  20. #120
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    well, if you're asking my opinion,
    i'd say it looks fine...not perfect, but fine.
    (i'm sure that helps a bunch)

    looking at your screen shot,
    i'm reminded of the film clips
    i saw on world at war the last night.
    i'd forgotten about the large edelweiss
    where your eagle is.
    not that i'm suggesting anything,
    i'm just saying i saw it.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  21. #121
    Hello Smilo,
    Thanks for your feedback!
    Yes, itīs only the lesser evil unfortunately, but at least itīs something.

    Iīm not sure what you mean about the large edelweis.
    At the moment, on the fins I have the non-stastika or swas-T-ika (the 4-Tīs cross) instead of the Eagle.


    Iīve also seen a white horizontal band on the top part of the fins, but I donīt know if it was on the units that had the bomb-carrying eagle nose-art.


    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  22. #122
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    somewhere in all my old stuff,
    i have images of squadron nose art.
    as i recall, there was one that used
    the edelweiss as it's logo.
    (google edelweiss and scroll down to images)
    the Do17 i saw in the film clip had one
    painted where your eagle is.

    i see if i can locate the folder it all that stuff.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  23. #123
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    wow...wonder of wonders, i found it.
    check out 8/jg5
    what i saw was not a red shield
    with yellow flower...instead,
    it was just a large white flower,
    (like the yelow one)
    with yellow center and no stem.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails luft2.jpg  
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by smilo View Post
    last night, i was watching the series, World at War.
    it was the Britain Stands Alone episode.
    there were film clips of Do17s taking off
    and the nose windows were right there.
    i'd never noticed them before.
    Hello Smilo,

    The Dornier 17 is just such a blend of shapes that I still find new things even though I must have looked at a thousand photographs by now, sometimes I still see things I had not noticed before. Notice how some of the folks making drawings forget features?
    If you have been watching video of the aeroplane, did you see the offset chin and asymmetrical canopy frame that I was describing?

    Hello Aleatorylamp,

    There are going to be limitations to what you can build with the whole aeroplane in AF99.
    There are going to be many features you know how to build but just don't have the Parts or Components.
    Just do your best with what you have.
    It is already looking much better than I would have expected at the start of the project.

    By the way, I know you like the Bombardier, but would those extra Parts help with your Nose section?
    If you want to see a serious Parts struggle, check out this thread from a few years ago:
    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...r-an-Ugly-Bird

    I know from that project that AF99's Parts limit is really 1199 and not 1200....

    - Ivan.

  25. #125
    Hello Ivan, hello Smilo,
    Thanks for your support! I havenīt altogether discarded putting in the extra transparent windows in the right nose section yet, and Iīm still trying things.

    The objective is to have the interior walls visible, in the area forward of the windshield, slanting down backwards to the top of the transparent windows and then verticaly down. A slanted and a vertical grey insignia bulkhead then block off the Nose section from the rest of the inner rear fuselage in Body Main.

    Forward nose frame and nose sides are halves, two l/r component, the same as the area below the glass canopy upto the leading edges. Each side has its own texture, inner sides dark grey.

    Although in general it looks quite good, there are 2 rather annoying problems: The bulkheads momentarily disappear and allow the inside of the nose panels to bleed through when viewed from slightly rear side angles, and the glue-sequence for the cabin floor and crew will not work anymore, although the corresponding listing in Body Main is intact, and the cabin floor often disappears.

    Iīll see if I have a better idea to try out. For the moment, parts count is at 149.6%, the Bombardier is still in, and AF99 still compiles, but Iīm safe-guarding the other version with textured chin and cheek windows though, as that already looks quite acceptable and the build is clean and quite bleed-free.

    Update: Putting the nose components into Nose Left and Nose Right helps a great deal, but there is still interaction with the cabin, which lies in Body Main and overlaps the lower forward part, which is in the Nose groups. Getting that area into Body Main is even worse because then the bulkheads donīt work at all like they should, so thatīs out too. For the moment, Iīm sticking to textured extra window, and wait and see if I can come up with something new for the transparent ones. Itīs not really a matter of parts count, because even at 149.9% all the parts are there, it compiles, but itīs too complicated for AF99 to prevent all the bleeds.

    BTW: Thanks Smilo for all the squadron symbols! If you like, then I can put an edelweis symbol on the fins instead of the 4-Tīs "swas-T-ka" cross. I gather the bomb-dropping eagle would stay on the sides in the front?

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; February 9th, 2017 at 03:05.

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