Project Dornier Do-17z2

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Here´s another set of screenshots.
I´ve done the wing, and now come the nacelles.

Hello Ivan,
Yes, the 323-R-2 had water injection and was more powerful. They also used it on the FW Condor, I think.
Don´t worry about my misinterpreting your coments at all. This is a discussion, implying everyone has their say, and I know I don´t have to do what others say unless I think it´s good for my project! Anyway, you see that I can do some things that are suggested, but not all.
For the moment, it´s going quite well. We´ll se how it continues with the nacelles...

It´s a Do-17z2, and I may modify it later for the Do215 hot-rod, but we shall see!

I may also make the Do-17z10 night fighter, to take advantage of the build for an extra model.
It´s like more effort- efficient, isn´t it?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

the speed at which you build
never ceases to amaze me.
i'd still be back there,
cleaning up and scaling the drawings.

attached are some more texture options.
my apologies for the quality of the images.

[smilo]

oh, what the heck, one more.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
There´s certainly a chice as to colour schemes!
I´ve been busy with the nacelles, flaps and ther retractable rear nacelle parts, and it hasn´t been too easy. The flaps still cause bleeds, but it seems to work. Here are some shots.
For the moment, I´ll finish the tailplane now.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

yes, you have been busy.
she looks very good, Stephan.

four days from my comment
on the speed which you build.
to be honest,
i was beginning to worry.
i thought, maybe, the nacelles
had sent you running away,
screaming off a cliff.
or, you had taken a much deserved vacation.

anyway, it's nice to see the progress.
how is the resource count?

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Thanks for your support!
Ha ha! You are actually quite right about my problems with nacelles. I always find matching their upper and lower parts to the inner and outer wing sections extremely difficult.
Also, the tailplane being a shoulder wing, is not as straight forward as I´d thought - it has to match a small fuselage bulge there, but it´s coming along OK!
Parts count at 108% (864 out of 1200) is no problem, so I think I´ll have enough left for at least 3 or 4 crew and guns, although some of these planes had 6 guns (but only 4 crew).
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp, Smilo,

Smilo is right, your speed in building is amazing.
With your project going and the recent revelation about the Dornier 215, I have been looking at LOTS of photographs of the Do 215B-4 and the Do 17Z-2.
Even though I am not working on my model, I can say that I would not even be done browsing pictures and you already have most of your aeroplane built.
....and that is after having done the photographic and drawing review once before!

I actually have been trying to work out a sequence for the rear of the Nacelle and the Flap interaction that can be done all within AF99, but it is very resource expensive. It would not be a problem with my model because the final assembly has to be done in SCASM, but it probably would not work on your version.

Regarding the Tail Cone et al., it seems like one of the more straightforward areas of the entire aeroplane, especially if you are not trying to animate the control surfaces. I haven't figured out a nice way of animating the Elevators without some bleeds, but the Rudders look pretty simple.

Regarding the armament: Although the gun count is pretty high at 6-7 in all, the arrangement is not terribly effective. I am not entirely sure yet now to best model that effect in a CFS DP file.

I have been doing some poking around at yet another potential project. (It is pretty easy to browse almost anywhere with a decent cell phone and lots of data available.) Would anyone be interested in yet another "Design Study" thread?

Take Care Guys.
- Ivan.

P.S. I do notice a minor issue with your model: The Dornier 17 had Split Flaps, not Plain Flaps.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
The tail empenage went OK despite my misgivings about the fuselage bulge there - I had to eliminate it anyway for parts-count reasons. Otherwise the crew and the weapons would fall short.

At the moment after some simple landing-gear struts, I´ve also put in a pilot and 3 machineguns. Now parts-count obviously rocketed up to 143.3%. In order to get in 6 or 7 machineguns, and have enough for some more crew members, I´ll have to take out a bulkhead from the machine-guns to simplify them - although then they will look like rifles...

Thanks about the split flaps - I had trouble trying to figure out what type they were. OK then. That has just saves some parts: Without the cut-out wing and the extra upper-flap surfaces it amounts to 10% parts!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello folks,
The split flaps now work almost fine - when lowered completely the glue gluing them to the rear nacelle fails.
Then, there are now 3 crew and then also 2 nose guns, the upper of which is for the bomb aimer who sits next to the pilot, a dorsal one whose gunner is just a head, and a ventral gun in the belly canopy, and you can´t see the gunner.
Landing-gear struts don´t bleed, and with a parts count of now 148%, I think I just about have enough parts for the 3 wheel doors and wells, (the rear wheel was also retractable) and the thick antenna on the cabin.
Let´s see...

Update:
Now I´ve got everything in that I want, antenna included, and parts count is at a squeezed 149.9%!!
I had to duplicate the outer wheel-doors because of bleeds, and although it´s not perfect, it´s better.
Ivan: I wonder if it´s time to post the model incl. AFX (there are no main textures as yet) for you perusal, (of course, if you would be so good)?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
I was going to answer before: You were asking > Would anyone be interested in yet another "Design Study" thread? <
I´d say "Yes indeed!", if you were up to it!

...and here are another 2 shots of the Do17-z2.

Smilo:
I think I´ll have to ask you to start deleting attached images from my few first models from 2 years ago, as I think my attachment-quota is slowly filling up. Unless of course there is a way I can do it myself without bothering you!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

there's an attachment-quota?
that's news to me.
i'll look into it.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,

I think there´s a maximum Mb per person for attachments.
A couple of weeks ago there was a change made in the way of editing posts. The advanced editing mode which allowed editing titles and attachments was made to be standard, and only one mode is available now. During the day they were making the change a notice would come up stating how much of the maximum Mb per person for attachments I had used, and I think it was about 75%, but I´m not sure. Anyway, it´ll still be couple of months before it reaches the limit.

I´m putting camo textures on the Do-17 now!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

i have the capability, among other things,
to edit posts and manage attachments.
which, by the way, i try not do.
(okay, i'll admit to correcting a typo or two)

i did look into it and found...
when clicking on Edit Post,
then, Manage Attachments
i can delete them.
i'm just not sure if by doing so,
the attachment is deleted
just from my view or everyone's.
to be honest, i'm adverse
to deleting your attachments.
i guess i'm afraid of deleting something important.
as i see it, it's your call.

here's how to do it;
in the upper right corner,
click on Settings, then,scroll down the menu on the left
and click on Attachments
all your attachments are listed
with a check box to the right of each.
after selecting which you want to delete,
scroll down to the bottom
and click on the Delete Selected box.
that's it, you're done.

i would highly recommend taking your time.
as i said above,
there may be something important.

now, back to the task at hand...
i anxiously await the next phase
of the Do17 project.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
OK thanks, I found it! - as I´m only a little above half the maximum, I won´t go about deleting anything for another year or so!

At the moment I´m fitting the Dornier 17 camo textures, and as soon as their edges match, I´ll post some pics.

For the event you are itching to try it out, I´ll also post the model when the textures are acceptable! (For the moment, only camo colours with no markings). That way you can have a closer look.

The model is the 5K-U, whose picture is in the middle of the three you sent, with yellow rudders and forward engine nacelles.
I like the nose-art eagle it has!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

YES, SIR!
please send me a beta model.
i would be honored to check her out.
i'll give her the once, twice, thrice over,
even though i am adverse to nitpicking.

i agree regarding the U5BH scheme.
i, too, like the yellow accents and eagle nose art.
yes, we disagree on the numbers/letters.
may i direct your attention to post #14?
same image, but, much sharper.

i also agree that you should hold off
deleting attachments.
what's the rush?
maybe, when you get around 90%

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp, Smilo,

I had a little time today and with all the discussions of Dorniers and all the recent poking around for photographs, decided to go back and look at where I had gotten on my own project years ago.

I can see a few places where I had gotten the shapes wrong on my own model and those are not hard to fix.
Note that there should be a hole in the tip of the Spinner and mine does not have them.
Note that the Trailing Edge of the Wing Fillets is very incorrect on my model.
Note that the Engine Reduction Gear is shaped incorrectly: It is actually cylindrical behind the Spinner and the same diameter.
I believe the interior bracing of the Cowl is actually correct though it looks too simple.
This is because the clutter of the Pushrods makes it appear there is much more in front of the Engines.
The lower section of the Nose is not very good, but I believe I had fixed that section in another AFA assembly.

There SHOULD be an additional "Nose" or "Cockpit" Assembly that is not shown here.
I had built up a fairly substantial AFA assembly there with wider Canopy Frames as Components and started on an interior but accidentally overwrote the AFA which meant that I would have to do it all over again. That is about when I gave up and have not done a thing with it again until today.....

Your project is bringing back memories.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo!
Yes, a more correct lettering seems the one from Post #14. I´ll put that one in!.
I´ve just managed to glue in the bomber/gunner next to the pilot with fewer bleeds changing the glue sequence, and textures are slowly progressing.
Soon there´ll be a beta model for you!!

Hello Ivan!
Wow, very interesting! I´ll study your post and pics with more attention to see if I can get ideas for mine!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

I highly recommend you study the photographs of the real thing.
I don't believe the assembly techniques that I am using will work well for you unless you also use SCASM for final assembly.
I can't give you any advice there because this is the first time I have tried it myself and I am still trying to figure out what to do.
I see yet more errors in my work as I dig further.
It appears that the Cowl Bracing that I have on this model is not really correct either.....

The biggest problem thus far is really organization. I need to have the various sections build into different directories so that their models and moving parts don't overwrite each other. Remember that Aircraft Animator loses the animation for pieces if they are not in the current model.
One of the problems with doing the separation is that I like to easily compare left and right sides during animation and it appears that each wing and engine assembly will take more than half of the Components allowed in AF99 so the two sides probably won't share the same directory.

My guess is that your Dornier 17Z will be the only one completed any time soon.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your comments, that I always welcome. Not an easy job by any means, this plane. The only reason it seems to be going quite quickly is that I have more time on my hands to build.

I have studied the photos, and have had to apply some degree of simplification to the unusual shapes which are present. I´m afraid that my abilities with SCASM are limited to the Virtual Cockpit, so I will not be able to provide those possible sophistications and animations. My capabilities are directly proportional to AF99´s capabities. Your forward engine nacelles are certainly spectacular, with the parts within the cowling behind the propeller!

I have some momentary interaction here and there, for example between wing-root and engine nacelles, but it´s not terrible, and all in all I find the model is turning out more pleasing than I initially feared.

At the moment I can´t provide any more pictures until I manage to match the textures properly, but it´s slowly coming, so in a few days I hope to be able to manage a beta version post! I will definitely not let Smilo down! Ha ha!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Folks!
Slow progress with the textures.
The topmost flat part of the fuselage behind the cabin won´t allow texture points, so I have had to alter the splinter camo pattern just there. For the moment, wings, fuselage and tail are done, and I still have to adjust the engine nacelle textures.
For the moment, here´s a screenshot!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

the texture issues must be frustrating.
that said, she looks to be coming along nicely.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,

Glad you like it! Here are some shots from the side.

At first I had dark and olive pattern on the forward nacelles behind the yellow part, but it looked somewhat overdone, so now the right nacelle is olive there and the other dark green. From photos it´s impossible to tell .

Then, some pictures of this unit show yellow spinners with forward nacelles also in yellow, and others show a camo band infront of the yellow part of the nacelle (which is a bit further aft), and spinners in yellow and camo. Then, yet others, have spinners in camo and white!

I wonder... Any preferences?

I still have to straighten out the lower rear fuselage, and round off the edges of the bomb-carrying eagle posters on the sides.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

at first blush, yellow nacelle bands
and yellow spinners seemed a bit much.
but, i'm getting use to it.
no, i like it.
as for preferences(?)...
i'm all in favor of artist's discretion.

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Your model is looking pretty good.
The issue you are having with Top-Bottom Textures is why on the Cockpit Assembly of my model (The assembly that was overwritten), what is seen as a single Yellow Component was divided into three separate Components.
The Lower section is pretty close to what is seen here, but the upper section is divided into a Left Component and Right Component.
Those are only the Top section and are intended to be Textured Top-Bottom.
Note also the Fuselage Components near the Wing Root area: They are so short because they are also intended to be textured Top-Bottom.

One thing I noticed on your earlier models and I don't know if you fixed it yet is the top of the Fin-Rudder area.
Note that the Rudder Balance does not go all the way forward to meet the front of the Fin.
It stops short leaving a noticeable notch there.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your points and good words. At the moment the notch in the rudder isn´t there as I was short of parts. At the moment I´m at 148.1, so I might put them in again. As fins are diamond-shaped bulkhead structures, I just might be able to get the notches back in. I´m full up on 30 components, so fins can´t be done as components.
The "neck" behind the cabin is one component, (see previous screenshots) and can´yt be split into 2 because I have no more free. Another component is the sides below the canopy, another is infront of the windscreen, and another one is for the cabin belly. I don´t think it can be simplified, but I may be mistaken.

Hello Smilo,
Thanks for the input! I think I´d agree with you that after second thoughts, yellow spinners with yellow nacelle fronts and no camo bands look better.

Well then, I´ve just been cleaning up vertices on the nacelle tops and bottoms, panelbeating warps etc., and it´s looking quite pleasing. Here´s the promised Beta Version! Ha Ha! Let´s see how the machine look and flies... As yet, only splinter-camo and no markings except for the eagle.

AFX and texture files included in case Ivan wishes to inspect.
Enjoy!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp