Project Dornier Do-17z2

[Ivan]

Hello Smilo,

Thank for the reply. I AM sometimes a rivet counter and sometimes I am not.
It all depends on where and when.
If you look closely at the nose glazing on my Mitchell, especially on top, you will find a few differences between what I built and what it REALLY looks like.
There is also a missing round window on each side of the fuselage just aft of the wing root trailing edge.
I usually miss a few things on each project.

Regarding panels, at least this Dornier 17Z will have a bomb aimer. My bombers will not until I can figure out a few things.
My reason for calling attention to the asymmetry is because I figure as long as you are creating your own texture, you were probably basing it on a drawing of some kind and it costs no more to draw in the asymmetry as opposed to leaving it out.

Some things are distracting: The only BV 141 out there has an instrument panel from a FW 189.
What is distracting is the dual engine control texture on an aeroplane that only has one engine.
That doesn't mean I follow all details either.
The only real panel I have put together is for the A6M Type Zero.
There are LOTS of details wrong with that one but I basically accomplished what I had in mind which was to create an arrangement resembling the real thing but with functionality appropriate to CFS.
In reality, lots of instrument panels are very high but one of those really can't be fit into the CFS proportions without costing something.
The P-39 Airacobra has something along those lines.
I did something similar for the Eindecker which actually had a much simpler arrangement than I put in.
I still haven't figured out what to do when a panel has both a compass and a directional gyro because functionally, those two instruments are the same in the CFS environment.

Oh well, perhaps there will be yet more changes as I learn how to properly set up a panel.


Hello Aleatorylamp,

It sounds to me like you have the answer you asked for earlier about whether or when to release your project.
I can tell you that it probably should not wait for my German Twin Gauges because those may take quite a while.
I was figuring that up to this point, neither of you saw the asymmetry; I had no idea that Smilo already recognized it.
You put in what you want on your model.
I can think of a bunch of other changes, but that is why my model is where it is and yours is nearly complete.
This story has been repeated numerous times.
My P-3 Orion is still sitting as a partial project that is no further along than my Dornier 17Z and a dozen other fairly worthy projects.

By the way, your Shakespeare quote is actually from Hamlet, not Othello.
I have read Othello but not Hamlet, but my Son is currently reading Hamlet for his English class.
He has actually missed this entire week of school; He had a pretty serious fever and head ache until this morning.

- Ivan.

[smilo]

best news of the day...
your son is feeling better.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
I´m also glad your son´s getting better, and I hope his recovery will be complete and soon.

I confused Othello and Hamlet! Aarghh! The two we didn´t do at school! Only Macbeth,
King Lear, A Winter´s Tale and Much Ado About Nothing. But, at least we did some...
They were actually quite fascinating, as we had an excellent literature teacher who loved
his job and we could actually see what was going on in our mind´s eye!
The two I confused, jealousy, loyalty and unfaithfulness on one hand, and doubt and revenge
on the other, both went into the same witches´ cauldron, and my lack of knowledge thought
"to be jealous or not to be jealous"... Oh dear!

Ok, cleared up on the Dornier Schnellbomber then! There is always an opporunity later for
improvements when they appear.

Cheers, and thank you for commenting!
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp, Smilo,

Can you tell me exactly what you need as far as gauges for the Dornier 17Z?

This may yet be another funny situation. Note that so far, the only gauge I have ever built and is public use is the N2 RPM Gauge that is on your Heinkel 162? None of my releases have had a custom gauge yet.....
Time to go back to tweaking gauges.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Don´t worry, there´s really no need to alter your development routine.
You are doing an admirably thorough and organized job with your new gauges, and I don´t want to interfere with that, and of course, I appreciate your offer very much.

The results of your Heinkel RPM gauge with NoDice´s bitmap work was absolutely great - and there was not only KPW.JetN2H-1.gau for engine 1, but also KPW.JetN2H-2.gau, for a possible Me262´s engine 2.

I had been trying out another pair of your experimental prop-engine 1 and 2 gauges with the AT-9 Fledgling (Jeep), those which funnily enough, at that time, needed a different bitmap depending on the plane they were used for, but were fantastic. (Could it be that the read-out perhaps was percentage RPM, as opposed to effective RPM ?).

The Default FSFS RPM gauges I always use, give a falsely high read-out until the panel has been cycled through window-view and full-screen-view. Then, if the RPM is higher than max. value, it never stops doing strange things.
Luckily that the Do17-z2´s engines are low revved and the Default FSFS 1-2 RPM gauges can be used.

Well, enough waffling!
I really don´t want to bother you, because I don´t want to put a spanner in the works.
Of course, I wouldn´t deny that I wouldn´t mind having an RPM-1 and RPM-2 gauge for the Schnellbomber, and the gauge style seems to coincide with the style of Dial-Bitmap that NoDice was using for the Heinkel - I also see it on your gauge screenshots.
Oil temp. and pressure, and manifold pressure gauges would also come in handy... but it´s too much work for now.

If I were to use such gauges, that would also put Smilo under pressure too for a nicer panel, and I don´t want to do that either. That´s why I wasn´t uploading the machine, but as it seems to be interesting after all to do so now, basically, I think it is more comfortable for everyone if I upload the Schnellbomber now with the simplified panels and standard gauges, creating no hassle for anyone else.

Later, once a new panel and new gauges are done without you and Smilo having to work on them with your tongue hanging out and wiping sweat from your brow as it were, I can release an update - that way there is another incentive for later!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello folks -
Almost forgot!
I still have to SCASM this machine, for the VCockpit and engine bleeds through the cabin floor and window struts.
Let´s see how that goes.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamnp

[smilo]

have fun with that

[Ivan]

Hello Smilo,

The SCASM to correct things for the Virtual Cockpit is actually pretty easy though also quite tedious.
Tedious and Easy??? Yeah, like opening a one pound bag of M&Ms and arranging them all by colour and with the "m"s facing in the same direction. Pain in the tail but not difficult.


Hello Aleatorylamp,

The reason I was asking is because I was thinking of extracting the bitmaps from the stock Microsoft Multi-Gauges and seeing if I could use them to program a set of multi engine gauges but with the stock appearance.
Since I was going to try anyway, I figured that I might as well start with one of the German gauges from either the Me 109 or the FW 190A.
Perhaps the P-51D would really be better since I am so used to looking at that one.

Still taking little baby steps here....

- Ivan.

[smilo]

obviously, i'm not Stephan,
but, i'll chme in anyway.
if you have the time and notion
to make a run at german multi engine gauges,
i'd say go for it.
i, for one, would welcome them.
but, only if it doesn't side track you
from the task at hand.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Well, if you are sure it it won´t put you out, and if you are feeling adventurous (ha ha!),
then, what I´d use on the Dornier Do17-z2 as far as engine 1 and 2 gauges are concerned,
would be perhaps:

- RPM,
- Oil pressure,
- Oil temperature, and
- Boost Pressure.

I expect they didn´t worry much about the other stuff at that time, like exhaust temperature,
cylinder head temperature, or fuel flow. ...unless of course they did!

Anyway, that would be the picture... if Smilo agrees, of course,
because I´m sure he knows more than I do.

Thank you for your offer!
In fact, it would be absolutely fantastic, because I´ve actually been waiting to find some
multi-engine gauges for at least 12 years now!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

gosh, Stephan...where did you come up with
"...because I´m sure he knows more than I do."

boy, oh boy, do i have you fooled.
it almost fits into the catagory of,
"if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance,
baffle them with bull****."

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
As regards panels and stuff, I just tend to make approximations,
just to make them look better than a Cessna Panel - unless I cop
out and use the Sopwith Camel default panel! Nothing like the
Do17Z panel screenshot that you posted earlier on!!

Then, as far as gauges are concerned, it´s complicated for me
to identify them from a photo, and since you guys have been flying
around for years, you know more than I do!

Anyway, I´ll rephrase the question:
Would you agree that the 4 instruments I mentioned are enough?
Or more precisely: Did WW2 twins have EGT-CHT + FuelFlow, gauges?

As they aren´t in the CFS1 multigauges, if they were needed, I could
try doctoring-up the frames of for them, using the default FSFS
EGT-CHT + FuelFlow, gauges.

Not that I´m worried about it - I´d just as soon forget about them, if
you ask me, but more gauges always look cool!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

just to add to the confusion,
i have two needle multi engine gauges,
-fuel pressure
-oil pressure
-manifold pressure
-cylinder head temperature (C)

the thing is, i'm not sure if they're accurate,
or, if they even function properly.

that said, i have been working on a do17 panel layout.
most of the gauges are stock fw190a or bf109e,
with a couple add ons thrown in for good measure.
of course, they look okay, but are only single engine,
so, they don't work properly for the starboard engine.

and i still haven't finished the bomb aimer panel.
patience is a virtue, but,
this is bordering on ridiculous.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
OK, thanks!
So then, what I could do for the extra 2-needle gauges that are not contained in the FW190 or Bf109 multigauges, is to take the default FSFS ones and alter the casing frame so that it matches the style of the FW190 / Bf109 gauges.
What do you think of that?
Then, together with Ivan´s newly created set from the multigauges, once that´s done, the set would complete!
This could also be for the event that the 2-needle multi-engine gauges that you have didn´t work correctly.

As regards the Do-17Z bomb aimer´s panel, I was having a go at it too, but I wonder...
Here´s a screenshot. I wonder if it´s any good.

Another thing, as we´re talking about panels:

I finally found the Otto-BI biplane open cockpit panel I had made. I´d lost it, and it wasn´t with the plane, because there were other vintage Biplanes using it.
The upload I did yesterday was with the default Sopwith Camel panel, and after SCASM-correcting the virtual cockpit and uploading that, Rami slipped it into the aircraft.
Now, the question is: Is it worth while pestering Rami again to also slip this custom panel into the Otto_BI pusher, or is it best to leave things as they are now?
Below is a screenshot of the panel in question.
On other Flight Simulator Sites, they also upload panels without the actual aircraft, so I could also just upload an "early vintage open cockpit Biplane Panel". Maybe that would be the best idea.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello again, Smilo,
I was just checking the FSFS two-needle gauges but a lot of them don´t seem
to work on the Do17Z, only the Manifold Pressure needle.
Strangely enough, do work on the Baltimore and the Fledgling, except for
cylinder head temp. and Fuel Flow - these don´t work anywhere.
I wonder what´s going on.
If they won´t work, there´s no point in doing the bitmaps, of course.
I´ll have to check further, especially why they won´t work on the Dornier!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

okay, here's what i've got so far
for gauges in the do17;
190 and 109 tachs are the same and work,
190 and 109 boost pressure both work.
neither, oil temp gauges work.
neither, oil & fuel pressure gauges work.
109 radiator temp gauge doesn't work.

my dual engine fuel pressure gauge works.
but dual oil pressure, dual manifold pressure
and dual cyl head temp gauges don't work
in the do17, but do work in an a20 test model.
also, it's notable that these gauges are squirrelly.
you'd have to see how they act for yourself.

i don't know for sure, but,
it appears there might be an issue with the do17 air file.

[Ivan]

Hello Smilo, Aleatorylamp,

My Son is better but now I think I have his bug. Definitely have a fever and lots of aches and chills.
Thus, Ivan's Workshop is closed for the day.

Regarding the 109 Radiator Temp gauge, there is no radiator in a radial engine aeroplane, so that is pretty reasonable.
I suppose it isn't a bit surprise that the AI Flight Models have issues.
I know even some of the flyable ones have issues which is why I try to start from the stock P51D or something derived from it.
I believe there are issues with the stock P47D which is how I got my first F6F Hellcat Flight Model.

If you are only having a problem with the FSFS Tachometers, try adjusting the Max Governed RPM.
I believe that is the factor that screws things up with the Tachometers from FS98.

One other factor to look for is the Fuel Tanks records.
I know that if they are not the Record 5XX individual records sometimes weird things happen.
The two record setup with one defining quantities and another defining locations does not seem to work well.

This is just from memory, so of course your mileage may vary.

Good Night.
- Ivan.

[smilo]

no radiator temp makes sense, Captain Obvious.
but, why no to the oil temp gauges,
or, the oil & fuel pressure gauges working?

not to worry about it...
bundle up, drink lots of liquids and rest.
if this is the bug i had a month ago,
it's going to take more than a day to recover.
mine hung on for a week.
feel better soon.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
So it´s the .air file again. Why don´t I ever think of these things?
Every time I read your "Captain Obvious" I have to laugh out loud!

Hello Ivan,
Herb tea (e.g. peppermint + thyme + coriander + rosmarin ) + lemon + honey seems to work quite well and is relieving. Get better!
I´ll have a look at the parameters you mention in the .air file - Thanks!

And here I thought I was being smart by adapting the Do17 AI .air file.
I love .airfiles... My mother used to say "why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?

Update:
Live and learn - One never ceases to learn interesting things. Thanks to both of you for pointing out the .air file issues.
The Do17 AI .air file I used for the Schnellbomber... Grrrrr... I should have known... obviously has several simplifications:
No CFS specific sections for Tanks, EGT, CHT, Oil Temp, Oil press, Fuel Press. Any others missing...?
Captain Obvious... Ha ha!
Isn´t it wonderful when one knows how? I put all those "new goodies" in, and of course...
now all the FSFS Gauges except Fuel Flow work! I´ll see if I can fix that one too...
Lowering Max. Governed RPM to 2500 seems to protect the RPM gauge too... Great stuff!

Many thanks again,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

captain obvious strikes again.
i'm glad you like him, so do i.

am also pleased, that you found
the air file issues...it seemed logical,
but actually, i was just guessing.
i'm not an air file kinda guy.
it's all too complicated for a person
who believes in the kiss principle.
keep it simple stupid...that's my credo.
(he said, as he started up ad2k)

your mother's quote is perfect.
it should be your profile signature quote.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
What a nice day! I hadn´t laughed so often in the morning for a long time. My mother had some good expressions!

A good guess is as good as an arduous deduction.
I put in all the missing .air file sections, and here´s the new .air file - complete! Done!
Obviously I didn´t bother with the water radiator...
An interesting detail is that the manifold pressure needle and dial only go up to 35 inches of mercury. That would be 1.1 Atmospheres, but with that, the needle only marks 30 inches and should go up to 35.
It seems not to be too inaccurate for 1 atmosphere or less, but superchargers would need a much larger scale.

Then, whatever I try, there´s no way to get the Fuel Flow needle to work. Lovely, these .air files, aren´t they? But shhhhh!! We mustn´t complain!!! At least aeroplanes seem to be able to be made to fly better and more realistically with a decent .air file than in any of the newer simulators, where I find everything feels a bit wishy-washy dampened and cottony. Or maybe it´s just me - I don´t want to offend anyone.

Attachment: Updated Do-17z2 air file - i.e. no longer AI !!

OK: Then the next step is to see if any of the FSFS dual-needle gauges are worth doctoring up with WWII frames and maybe metric dials... What do you think? ...I probably don´t know what I´m letting myself in for, but I´m going to try.

Cheers,
Aleratorylamp

[smilo]

any day with a smile,
is a good day.
add laughter and it's even better.

a quick thought about,
"the manifold pressure needle
and dial only go up to 35 inches of mercury."
is this the stock german gauge?
is it possible, it's metric?

been playing with the bomb aimer panel.
nothing positive to report,
other that i've been playing with it.

heading back to bed for a few hours.

do you have daylight savings time?
if so, when does it take effect?

[Ivan]

Hello Smilo, Aleatorylamp,

Glad you figured it out with the AIR file.
I believe the fuel flow is a gauge incompatibility problem.
If you check out the Beckwith Test Panel, it reads fuel flow just fine.
If I were you, I would not worry much about a fuel flow gauge issue. It isn't a common instrument.
Give Mr. Virtual Pilot the gauges s/he needs to effectively pilot the aeroplane.

I should have stated this last night, but was a bit too tired:
Get a copy of Jerry Beckwith's AirDump and AirUpdate programs.
Dump your Dornier 17 AIR file and compare just the records present with a dump of the stock P-51D AIR file.

Regarding the FSFS and FS98 stock gauges:
They are really intended for the modern very lightly supercharged General Aviation types.
I think I mentioned this a few times, but with the old WW2 Warbirds, the boost levels were much much higher.
The FS98 SDK allowed up to 65 inches Mercury (65536 / 1000) which is quite sufficient for most of the old Warbirds.
My B-25C Mitchell needs about 44.0 inches Hg and the P-38s need around 57 inches if I remember correctly.
I have had working FS98 versions of those gauges for a couple years now.

I can send you what I have there if you want to try replacing BMPs with something more suitable.
I don't think the FS2000 stuff will work as well because they are all multi-gauges; I don't know how to program just a single one there.

Just for informational purposes, the late model Merlin Spitfires could run up to around 85 inches of Mercury (+24 Pounds Boost) and modern unlimited class air racers are running well over 100 inches under race conditions.

The Tachometer issue can be addressed to some extent with the Maximum Governed RPM variable, but the problem is that I also use that variable to adjust propeller animations. Also, I wanted a Tachometer that would work with ANY CFS AIR File instead of just ones that tweak to match the gauge.

Now you know why I found the available stock instruments inadequate and had to figure a way to program my own versions.

- Ivan.

P.S. The stock German gauges read up to about 1.8 ATA which is equivalent to about 52 inches of Mercury.
P.P.S. Oops, I lied. I have a Single Manifold Pressure gauge. Once I had the concept, I never programmed a second.
It would not be hard to change it, but it will take a couple hours to set up the new directories and duplicate source code.
Let me know if you need. I am not going to bother if you do not need.

[aleatorylamp]

I only use them directly in a corner of the main panel, just for ambience. They are so small,
you can´t tell what they indicate, so that´s irrellevant anyway - IF they all worked, of course.

That´s why I was using them, and always took for granted they worked like in FS98, and never
checked them for CFS. Serves me bloody right!!

Oddly enough, there was a moment this morning when suddenly Engine 1 Fuel Flow worked,
showing 15 USG/Hour, but after that, never again!

Yes, we have daylight saving time. Your last post arrived at about 12.15 midday, juyst when the
server got too busy and I couldn´t answer! Right now it´s 4.30 in the afternoon, with this edit.
So maybe you´re just getting up for your morning tea or coffee! Bon apetit!

Hello Ivan,
OK, I see your point about the stock and FSFSconv gauges now! Hmmmm...
Thank you very much for your offer, but it´s not necessary to send anything now.
I´m actually looking for a stop-gap to solve things with present resources, so I prefer
not to slow you down now.

Usually in FS98, they have on the main panel only engine-1 gauges for general information,
and then you can open a secondary engine panel showing all the engine-gauges lined up in
neat rows.

So I could, for an imminent upload:
A) Show only general engine info with available stock German engine-1 instruments
(the stock 1.8 ATA Manifold pressure one will of course be fine!).
Possibly this is the elegant and quite practical choice.
B) Use the working FSFSconv ones in my usual fashion only for ambience, their details
being irrellevant as they are too small to show up anyway, even if Fuel Flow doesn´t
work and Manifold Pressure maxes out too soon. A more practical but less elegant choce?

Later, the time will come for fully-fledged and spectacular Do-17Z panel with all the bells
and whistles, to be uploaded and celebrated! A good reason not to change present FSFSconv
bitmaps - too much work if a new panel will be had in the future!

So, that is the situation as far as I can see after analysing the options for now.
I´d feel inclined to just using Stock engine 1 gauges for the time being. What would you say?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

i was asking about daylight savings,
because it just changed last weekend,
so, now, i'm -7 hours gmt.
if i had my druthers,
i'd keep standard time,
but, i'm in the minority.
i guess i'm always bucking the tide
in some fashion or another.
story of my life.

if i might ask,
would you hold off uploading the do17,
until, maybe, this weekend?
i'll see if i can focus enough to finish
a panel or two for you.
no promises, but, i'll try.

i'm off to check out the new
and improved do17 air file
and to try out a couple panel ideas
i got while dozing off this early AM.