Heinkel He-162 "Spatz", 1944 - Page 7
Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567
Results 151 to 174 of 174

Thread: Heinkel He-162 "Spatz", 1944

  1. #151

    "Fast Bricks" - Me-262 speed trials.

    Hello again,

    Papingo´s coments on "fast bricks" spurred a little investigation into the FS98 Me-262 .air file. At first I had found Rabbidja Guder´s example .air file that came with the original AF99 CD, but unfortunately I was unable to stable its constant soaring, so I settled for the .air file that comes with Berndt Drehfalhl´s Me 262.

    This one was rather easy to stabilize, and I found that it was rather souped up:
    It was doing 587 mph at S.L., with 105% N1/N2, (thatever that would mean as turbojets are single-spool, both compressor and turbine running at the same RPM), and thrust was also a bit high, at 2496 flb.

    S.L. specification states 1980 flb thrust at 8700 RPM, and 560 mph max. level speed. Presumably, this would be a maximum continuous speed, and there is no reference to any kind of short-duration extra power coming from boost-bursts or afterburners.

    I managed to tone it down a bit by reducing the thrust entry and tweaking the RPM entries for idle (3000 RPM) and maximum RPM, and after this I got a more reasonable S.L. performance of 560.7 mph with 2212 flb thrust, and then I also got a very plausible 90% power performance of 526 mph at 1871 flb thrust, with 97% N1 and 101% N2.

    However, one thing which is turning out to be very difficult to adjust, is to get the maximum RPM down to 8700 RPM corresponding to full power. At the moment it is at 10000 RPM.

    Update:
    There is a clarification to this respect: Remember that the N2 Turbine gauge gives %RPM, not real RPM, so in this case, 10000 is really 100% of full RPM - so changing the scale to have 8700 RPM at this position would solve the dilema. Using the default N1/N2 B737-400 gauge, when N1/N2=100% thrust is just over 2000 flb, very near the specified 1980 flb for max. continuous. I doubt whether the simulator .exe could ever give a real N2 RPM value, as it seems only to function with %RPM. So, the dial would have to be doctored in such a way to read 8700 RPM here. Of course, the position of the needle compared to the real RPM instrument is quite another matter, as would be the range of the scale on the dial.


    Anyway, perhaps the FD can be of help for Papingo, so I have included the modified .air file with this post.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; September 27th, 2016 at 08:58.

  2. #152
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Montréal, Québec, Canada
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,143
    Another trove worth reading; THIS SITE!!!

    In it you will learn quite a bit. I was particularly interested by jet starting procedure (spoiler alert);
    Starting procedure is as follows: Starting engine is primed by closing electric primer switch, then ignition of turbojet and ignition and electric starting motor of Riedel engine are turned on (this engine can also be started manually by pulling a cable). After the Riedel unit has reached a speed of about 300 rpm, it automatically engages the compressor shaft of the turbojet. At about 800 rpm of the starting engine, starting fuel pump is turned on, and at 1,200 rpm the main (J*2) fuel is turned on. The starter engine is kept engaged until the turbojet attains 2,000 rpm, at which the starter engine and starting fuel are turned off, the turbojet rapidly accelerating to rated speed of 9,500 rpm on the J*2 fuel. During acceleration, pilot must observe closely the functioning of the governor, also temperature of the hot gas in the thrust nozzle — which must not exceed 750°C.
    and jet control;
    Object of jet control is to coordinate the three principal variables — turbine rpm, fuel flow, and exhaust nozzle area — so that optimum efficiency may be obtained at all altitudes without exceeding maximum allowable turbine blade temperature. For this purpose, fuel flow and rpm are integrated by a constant speed governor. Strength of the control spring in the governor depends on the throttle position. A special accelerator valve allows for the inertia of the turbine and compressor when the throttle is opened too rapidly or abruptly.

    When pilot opens the throttle too fast, an aneroid, controlled by the pressure difference across the compressor, opens a bypass for the excess fuel until a predetermined rpm. is reached. This method precludes an over*rich mixture during initial acceleration, thus avoiding over* heating. Since faulty operation would lead to serious overheating of the turbine, a safety device is included to connect throttle linkage to exhaust nozzle area control mechanism so that a progressive opening of the throttle for climb automatically closes the exit to the appropriate position. This operates in the opposite fashion when the throttle is closed for landing or shutdown.


    Exhaust nozzle area has these manual controls: Position A — starting and idling, largest opening, (186 sq in); position S — intermediate position for climb (155 sq in); position F — high speed flight position (147 sq in); and position H — high altitude flight position (163 sq in).
    This solves many questions concerning a variety of subjects and, after thorough reading (I made a PDF of the document), I went back to the Bedienungsanleitung where the 25 L starter fuel tank (probably B4) was stored in the right wing. It had a volume capacity of 30L but, probably for expansion, was only filled up to 25L.

    This also poses new problems, especially for RPM of the compressor (tachometer was taking indirect readings from that shaft). Over 6,300RPM, the governor was controlling RPM to stabilize revolution at operating 9,500RPM. So throttle % had only real effect on RPM<6,500. Passed that point, the governor acted as a limiter-controller.

    Anyway, good reading...
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  3. #153
    Hello Hubbabubba, Hello Ivan,
    Thank you very much indeed for this very interesting document! It also supplies extra specification details for the extra boost power.

    I don´t understand what you mean with: > This also poses new problems, especially for RPM of the compressor (tachometer was taking indirect readings from that shaft). Over 6,300RPM, the governor was controlling RPM to stabilize revolution at operating 9,500 RPM. So throttle % had only real effect on RPM<6,500. Passed that point, the governor acted as a limiter-controller.<

    Being a single-spool turbojet, i.e. only one axel with both compressor and turbine, the governor would surely limit both compressor and turbine simultaneously - both would have the same RPM all the time, and as turbine output is given with N2 %RPM, surely this would serve as an accurate enough instrument on the panel, if it could be programmed so that the needle would fit into the operating range of the scale. The red marks on the authentic gauge would be the guideline.

    I doubt the last that bit you mention: >
    Exhaust nozzle area has these manual controls: Position A — starting and idling, largest opening, (186 sq in); position S — intermediate position for climb (155 sq in); position F — high speed flight position (147 sq in); and position H — high altitude flight position (163 sq in). < can be implemented, so only a general approximation to the engine´s operation envelope will be possible, but it´s quite OK by me, as far as things go given the sircumstances, so I´d be more than satisfied if the RPM gauge issue could be fixed!

    I wonder if Ivan would be able to give any information details on the way the N2 %RPM are given in the actual programme of the gauge itself.

    Anyway, it is definitely a fascinating journey of research into the early jet-age technology!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  4. #154
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Montréal, Québec, Canada
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,143
    The problem is quite simple; the only way to control RPM, at least that I know of in CFS1, is through throttle. As, in "real life", that throttle control ceased at 6,300RPM (it was a typo on my previous comment), and would automatically raise, and stay, at 9,500RPM. how could we mimic that with the needle deflection?

    Add also the "burst" action that you wanted to use. It would certainly show on the RPM, and it should not.

    It would have been the same problem with a constant speed propeller but, at least, CFS1 AIR files could deal with that. I doubt that the FS98-style jet AIR file can.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  5. #155
    Hello Hubbabubba,

    OK, I see. It also appears that the 6300 was the recommended minimum RPM during flight to prevent blowout, (the absolute minimum was 6000), and the 2800 RPM idle was only used on landing. This automatic throttle control is as you say, of course impossible to mimmick, and there´s no way to separate the burst power from the normal throttle range either. The 9500 RPM maximum continuous power has different throttle settings depending on altotude. However, there seems to have been a kind of safety margin here, and I have seen references here as to normal operation range being +- 300 RPM, i.e. 9200 - 9800 RPM. So a pilot will not have to check this to be exactly 9500 all the time. Here, the only way to do it is to tap keys F3 or F4 a few times and wait a bit for the turbine RPM to adjust itself to the 9500 RPM, if one wishes to fly at this maximum speed. Shorts cuts would be the "8" key, giving 80% power which has a greater safety margin.

    But I wasn´t really referring to these things, only the needle deflection itself, to try to get it to point to the correct numbers.
    However, if this isn´t possible, then the only alternative is to use my bitmap, or one llike mine. I´m correcting the upper red zone to make it shorter, more similar to the original photos. This bitmap already gives correct readouts for maximum continuous, minimum flight RPM and idle RPM, so it would be quite convenient to use, I feel.

    Of course, should you wish to alter the bitmap in your gauge to make it similar to mine, I´m sure that it will look more authentic, because you seem to be much better at this kind of thing!

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  6. #156
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Montréal, Québec, Canada
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,143
    I have two candidates that could be morphed to give 9,500 RPM at 80% without having to change the graduations excessively. Would it do?

    I'm trying here to get as precise a reading as can be while keeping as close as the actual gauge appearance. Having my cake and eating it too so to speak...
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  7. #157

    Model ready. and corrected RPM gauge bitmap

    Hello Hubbabubba,

    Here´s the Sparrow model in its probably finished state now.
    It includes your new panel but with my corrected N2 Turbine RPM gauge. The gauge is in the aircraft folder.

    Performance of the model and RPM readings are as follows:

    Sea Level: 3000 RPM Idle, 219 flb thrust.

    500 ft level flight:
    86% throttle: max. continuous 9500 RPM, 1764 flb thrust
    497.8 mph. (6.8 mph fast)
    100% throttle: Boost burst 10600 RPM, 2175 flb thrust (2028 flb is too low to maintain boost performance)
    551 mph (2 mph slow)

    20000 ft level flight:
    81% throttle: _9500 RPM, _994 flb thrust, 491.0 mph (9500 RPM obviously insufficient here)
    94% throttle: 10300 RPM, 1124 flb thrust, 522.0 mph (spec. non-boost speed)
    100% throttle: 1800 RPM, 1282 flb thrust, 563 mph (1 mph fast)

    A panel screenshot is also attached to this post - and the "corrected" gauge bitmap. It seems to look OK to me. What do you think?
    I have also included the N2 RPM gauge in the aircraft folder.

    All in all, the absence of the F10 Boost option for jets that is normally avaliable for CFS propeller planes is not too terrible, as it is actually quite practical for normal high-speed flight to be flying at 80 or 90% throttle.

    Update:
    It would be interesting to see the two versions of the dial that you have made - they may be better than mine because I have the feeling I made the red/white band along the periphery a bit too broad.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spatz-Panelshot.jpg   Spatz BMW N2 Rotor.bmp  
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; September 30th, 2016 at 08:42.

  8. #158

    Panel and Instruments ready!

    Hello Guy, Hello Ivan,

    After intense cooperation on the part of you both, the panel and instrumentation have indeed turned out fantastic!
    Ivan did a great job reprogramming the N2 Turbine RPM needle so as to make it point to the correct dial numbers on Hubbabubba´s realistic new dial-bitmap, and it gives very accurate readouts now. More than satisfying... Excellent!

    Here´s a screenshot of Hubbabubba´s new panel, with the extra gauges - Below on the right two ammo counters are to be seen! ...good to keep track of the bullets which are left, as there are only 120 for each of the two 20 mm cannon.

    I also prepared a new dashboard texture from the new panel, so that the virtual cockpìt on the model now also looks correct.
    Here´s a screenshot of that too.

    So, soon there will be a new upload for the now improved He-162 jet. Other improvements include the flight dynamics and reduction of bleeds. I´m just going over the accompanying text files and preparing the SCASMing for the V-Cockpit view correction. Before uploading I´ll back check with you so as to avoid any errors.

    Thanks again for the good teamwork!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spatz-newpanel.jpg   Spatz-Vcockpit.jpg  

  9. #159

    f86

    well I went back to flightsim .com .
    I put in 'sabre' into search box.
    I got 3 responses
    f86
    super sabre
    another sabre .dp
    Anyway the f86 sabre handles very well.
    I would recommend it!
    at least I've managed to damage a Mig
    luv to all
    >>papingo
    happy birthday to Ivan
    Last edited by papingo; October 11th, 2016 at 07:30. Reason: Ivan's birthday!!!!!!!

  10. #160
    Hello Papingo!

    I´ve checked out the Sabre - I got Shigeru Tanaka´s F86F with moving parts. It looks great and flies very nicely. Like you say, it handles very well!
    Nevertheless technically, it´s not too exact, as high performance is a bit off. Max. speed is only 622 mph at full throttle, and should be 687 mph. Then, max. thrust is too high at 7750 flb, being quoted at 5910 flb.
    I tried to correct it, but only got the thrust better by entering 6357 flb. Now it´s reading 5934 flb at 100% N2, (90% throttle), but speed correction is more difficult. Even reducing the Drag quite a lot, I only got about 10 mph more at N2=106% (100% throttle) and 6357 flb thrust. I always find it a bit tricky to fit the high speeds to the specified values with CFS using correct thrust entries, and this gets more pronounced at altitude.

    Hello Guy, Hello Ivan,

    Well, it looks like after all the help that I´ve obtained, the Spatz Upgrade is quite ready for an upload soon.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; October 13th, 2016 at 00:40.

  11. #161
    Good evening all!
    Just to let you know that I have finally uploaded the upgraded, improved Heinkel He-162 1944 jet fighter.

    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=19&id=21949

    Extensive research has gone into this upgrade, mainly regarding the special, realistic panel made by Hubbabubba, who also supplied innumerable gauges which further enhance the realism of this panel.

    Specially to be mentioned is the N2 Turbojet Tubine RPM gauge, with an authentic-looking bitmap supplied by Hubbabubba, as well as correct and accurate needle-movement, that has been programmed by Ivan, and also the ammo counter for the pilot to be able to carefully monitor his 2 x 120 rounds for the twin 20 mm cannon.

    Other improvements as regards flight dynamics and the minor model bleeds there were before have also been possible under Ivan´s indefatigable guidance.

    This has been very fine teamwork, which I have enjoyed tremendously!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  12. #162

    Panel bug

    Hello Hubbabubba,

    I just tesed the new panel on the Spatz and the auxiliary control panel sections still won´t work properly. I thought I had got it fixed, but obviously I hadn´t! Sorry about that.

    If in the panel.cfg, the line "render_3d_window=1" is entered in the main window section, the mouse cannot move the levers, and if this line is taken out, the panel is behind instead of infront of the main panel. If the line is taken out in the control panel window, the latter has parts missing, so it still won´t work. What does work, of course, is the older control panel bitmap and panel.cfg.

    I wonder if you can look into this and tell me what I can do to correct it. Then I can upload a fix for it, and ask Rami to include it in the aircraft file.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; October 17th, 2016 at 03:07.

  13. #163
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Montréal, Québec, Canada
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,143
    I will go download the new aircraft and see what was going wrong...

    ... just did and had a look, geee

    Many things have been messed-up. You should have send me a copy for proof-reading and testing. I do not modify panel.cfg created by CFGEdit to simply add my personnal touch. The manual editing is necessary because CFGEdit does not recognize all CFS1 possibilities and does overwrite important manual "out of the box" tweaks.


    I will send you a repaired copy by email.
    Last edited by hubbabubba; October 17th, 2016 at 12:04. Reason: seen the mess
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  14. #164
    Hello Hubbabubba,

    I should have checked better before too, and I didn´t realize that the c.fg Editor chews up things. Sorry!
    However, not to worry! These things happen - we aren´t perfect.

    In Spain they have a great saying: "He who works has the right to make mistakes."

    OK, then, I´ll await the corrected panel.cfg and ask Rami to slip it into the uploaded plane with a convenient comment.

    ...unless of course a better idea would be to upload panel and instruments as a separate item on its own, with a corresponding screenshot and descriptive text... I wonder. Maybe you´d prefer this, although I remember that you had mentioned before, that as the panel is just for the He-162, you didn´t think a separate panel upload on its own would be necessary.

    Anyway, whatever!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  15. #165
    SOH Staff
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    State of Confusion..... -8GMT
    Posts
    3,775
    i know he's very busy, but,
    consider asking Rami to pull all the He-162 uploads
    and wait until the corrected complete version is ready.
    one good alpha version makes more sense
    than one with umpteen updates.

    just my two cents.
    (or whatever your small change denomination is)
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  16. #166
    Hello Smilo!
    Very well, I´ll do it this way - it sounds like the neatest solution.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  17. #167
    Hello Folks.

    Hadn't checked this thread for a couple days. Missed all the excitement!

    Regarding CFGEdit:
    I only use it for quick and dirty throw-away panels as I might edit for testing purposes.
    It seems to do some unpredictable stuff to the CFG file in my experience so Hubbabubba and I may be describing the same thing.
    It IS a useful tool for visually locating gauges and setting relative sizes to match the rest of the panel, but when I do that, I just pull the numbers and enter them by hand into the Panel.cfg file.
    The other thing I don't like about CFGEdit is that it always sets both X and Y sizes to force an aspect ratio.
    I don't set both unless it is absolutely necessary.

    - Ivan.

  18. #168

    Corrected new He-162 upload.

    Hello folks,
    Following Smilo´s suggestion, I contacted Rami and he has just deleted the 2 previous versions of the Heikel He-162 "Sparrow" jet.

    I have just uploaded the correct version which now has Hubbabubba´s correctly functioning panel and includes a small explanation of the workings of the new panel and its mousable gauges. Great stuff! This is the one with the fantastic new N2 Turbine RPM Gauge for which Hubbabubba made the dial and for which Ivan so effectively programmed the correct needle-deflection.

    Here´s the new link: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=19&id=21954

    I do apologize for the confusing back-and-forth with the mistakes in the "corrected" older version, but these things do happen... it was more of a "mis-correction", but now it´s put right!

    I like Hubbabubba´s comment in French, similar to the Spanish one I used:
    “Il n’y a que ceux qui ne font rien qui ne font jamais d’erreur.” (Only those who do nothing never make mistake.)

    Anyway, I hope you enjoy the new upload!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  19. #169
    SOH Staff
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    State of Confusion..... -8GMT
    Posts
    3,775
    i see no reason to apologize, Stephan.
    as you say, these things happen.
    i try to look at mistakes
    as part of the learning process.
    i often make the same mistake
    numerous times...until i learn.
    god forbid, i might make a mistake
    and look stupid is total bullsh**.
    that's the hardest thing
    for the younger ones to understand.

    okay, enough of that.
    what's next on your list?
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  20. #170

    Mistakes = improvement!

    Hello Smilo,

    Thanks for your moral support! Often it gets a bit of a pain because I make too many mistakes... but as you say, it´s part of the whole thing, so it´s no real problem.

    Next on the list?
    I´ve put the two Baltimores back onto the conveyor belt - I had already managed rather nice .air files with Ivan´s help. They both fly very nicely and the difference in power is noticeable. Now I´m putting on preliminary textures: There will be the earlier Mk.III with desert livery in brown-light brown with the normal engines, and the later Mk.V with the souped up powerfull engines, in khakhi dark/light green.

    As soon as I finish the wheel-doors and the underpart of the nacelles, I´ll have a first version to post as a preview on the thread.

    There are still a few issues on the transparent glass canopy in the front and on the rear turret, but it´s not too bad and I´ll tackle them later, but they probably won´t need any complicated SCASMing.

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  21. #171
    just for the record.....
    the sabre that I downloaded was CFS1ised by
    Edmundo Abad .it handles well.

    Thanks for all your efforts on
    Spatz
    luv 2 all

    >>papingo

  22. #172
    Hello Papingo!

    Thanks for your post. Glad you like the Spatz! Yes, it appears that the efforts of all involved were indeed worth while!

    As regards the Sabre, there are a a couple of models available. Together with other rather well known aircraft of the time, it seems to be quite well represented and also has quite a good FS98 .air file!

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  23. #173

    Missing Gauges Uploaded

    Hello Folks,
    I do indeed apologize!
    After two updated re-uploads of the Heinkel-162 "Spatz" jet, I had finally failed to include the wonderful gauges made by Guy Gauvreau, including the N2 RPM Gauge programmed by Ivan.

    As it´s better late than never, here they are:


    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=21&id=23742

    Possibly not many missed them as they were included in the previous uploads before the last update.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails He-162 Cockpit.jpg  
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  24. #174
    Hello Folks,
    Many thanks go to Rami for moving the gauges so that they are now included within the main aircraft zip:

    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=19&id=21954

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

Members who have read this thread: 1

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •