As the nature of things progress...

[Blackbird686]

Hallo Blackbird,

It is the Avroes from 05.05.2018
in the panel are a bmp callad DH80 or something like that but is black / transparent
and when displaying the plane in the sime on 2d panel mode there just the gauges without any background.
As I have a serious frame rate drop on the sim when flying with the VC I made 2d panel from VC screenshots.
Yours
Papi

Papi --

Unless I missed out on a new BETA release, (which I'm sure I didn't) the latest release I have for a BETA is 04/19. Nigel sent some updated models which fixed the nav light on the tail, so that it works with the panel switch for the nav lights in the VC. I will fire up the trainer here and get back with you on that. I do see the "DH80" blank in the panel folder.... wonder what's up with that?

EDIT.... I was up with the 621 Trainer Yesterday and I don't remember a 2D panel, but it shouldn't be all black... you should see the scenery only in the 2D View. I briefly looked at the "621" after reading your post, and same thing... no 2D. There is a trick you can try to eliminate the all-black 2D view you're seeing but I don't guarantee it'll solve your problem. Go into the video/display section of the sim, in the settings, and make sure that "Render to Texture" is unchecked. It may or may not work but worth a try. You can always set it back if it doesn't.

BB686

[michaelvader]

Hi Blackbird

Oh I see there is a missunderstanding due a bad describing by me:
I meant that in the panel.cfg there is congigured the 2d panel using as
backgriund a bmp Dh80. when you look at it is black
Black but in fact transparent (colors 255, 255, 255)
Than on tthe sim when you are in 2d panel view you have the gauges just flying in the air and in the scenery.
I do not under stand the reason of doing so - why not in the case?
I did some back ground bmp's taken from screenshots from the nice VC.
I had a look on the frame rates
When flying with the VC my frame rate is oscilating between 4 and 11 fps flying with my 2d panel it is oscilating between 14
and 51 fps
That makes abit difference for flyong
Yours
Papi

[Mick]

Wasn't this question asked and answered a little while ago? If I recall, the answer was that the 2D panel isn't finished yet.

[michaelvader]

Sorry Mick,
I did certainly oversee or miss this message that at the end a 2D panel will come
Sorry about all my bad remarks
Yours
Papi

[Blackbird686]

Hi Blackbird

Oh I see there is a missunderstanding due a bad describing by me:
I meant that in the panel.cfg there is congigured the 2d panel using as
backgriund a bmp Dh80. when you look at it is black
Black but in fact transparent (colors 255, 255, 255)
Than on tthe sim when you are in 2d panel view you have the gauges just flying in the air and in the scenery.
I do not under stand the reason of doing so - why not in the case?
I did some back ground bmp's taken from screenshots from the nice VC.
I had a look on the frame rates
When flying with the VC my frame rate is oscilating between 4 and 11 fps flying with my 2d panel it is oscilating between 14
and 51 fps
That makes abit difference for flyong
Yours
Papi

No worries... I don't see the gauges only in the 2D view, just the hangar in front of the airplane. But like Mick said... the 2D (if any) isn't finished yet. I missed that somehow.

BB686

[Bushi]

Onwards north from the Straits of Gibraltar crossing as I airport hop my way back to Lossiemouth Scotland.

Great trip to help test out this little bird.. with a 'small' deviation from the Sahara trip to test the Lynx floatplane somewhere in the amazon! LOL

oh.. and somewhere along the lne.. my RAF silver gave way to my blue and white scheme.

So.. here I am

Flying a plane over a plain in Spain.. .. and no rain!

So much for that saying!

[nigel richards]

Onwards north from the Straits of Gibraltar crossing as I airport hop my way back to Lossiemouth Scotland.

Great trip to help test out this little bird.. with a 'small' deviation from the Sahara trip to test the Lynx floatplane somewhere in the amazon! LOL

oh.. and somewhere along the lne.. my RAF silver gave way to my blue and white scheme.

So.. here I am

Flying a plane over a plain in Spain.. .. and no rain!

So much for that saying!

Really love those blue paintschemes, Dave!

[nigel richards]

Until now the AVROs have been using the default Vickers Vimy pitch indicator in the VC cockpit. However, I'd like to take it a stage further towards authenticity and give the pitch indicator a better set of textures which may also assist better readings in marginal/poor lighting conditions.




Standard 'Vickers Vimy' Pitch Indicator


WIP textures for AVRO Pitch Indicator

[nigel richards]

For the NEW textures to have the desired level of resolution and detail, I wish to create textures twice or more in size to the existing Vimy bmps (see attached).


Vimy Pitch indicator background bmp.


WIP AVRO Pitch indicator background bmp.

I have tried enlarging all 5 bitmap elements in proportion but the gauge no longer shows or functions as required. :-/

My understanding of XML gauges is poor to say the least - is there something in the coding that should change when going from 66 x 147 background bmp to 132 x 294 background bmp???

The gauge XML coding is:


<Gauge Name="pitch_indicator" Version="1.0">
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_background.bmp"/>

<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<MaskImage Name="pitch_indicator_liquid_window.bmp"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_liquid.bmp"/>
<Shift>
<Value Minimum="-90" Maximum="90">(A:Plane pitch degrees,degrees) /-/</Value>
<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="90" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="23" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="20" X="29" Y="21"/>
<Item Value="10" X="29" Y="46"/>
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
<Item Value="-10" X="29" Y="97"/>
<Item Value="-20" X="29" Y="122"/>
<Item Value="-23" X="29" Y="125"/>
<Item Value="-90" X="29" Y="132"/>
</Nonlinearity>
<Delay PixelsPerSecond="115"/>
</Shift>
</Element>

<!-- ========================= Hightlight ===================== -->
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_highlight.bmp" Alpha="Yes"/>
</Element>

<!-- ========================= Shadow ========================= -->
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_shadow.bmp" Alpha="Yes"/>
</Element>
<!-- ======================= Reflection ========================== -->

<Mouse>
<Tooltip ID="TOOLTIPTEXT_SPIRIT_PITCH_INDICATOR"/>
</Mouse>
</Gauge>

[Dev One]

Edit. Just noticed that the symbols in the tooltip do not show correctly, so I have added spaces to see if it will now show correctly!
% ! 3 . 1 f & # 1 7 6 ; )

Sorry have not saved the .bmp as layered psd!
& now its wiped my original text!

Try again - (Dick Whittington?)
<Gauge Name="Inclinometer" Version="1.10" >






<Image Name="inclinometer#3.bmp"/>


<Element>
<Position X="107" Y="122"/>


<MaskImage Name="incwindow#3.bmp"/>

<Image Name="incliquid#3.bmp"/>
<Axis X="12" Y="374"/>


<Shift>
<Value Minimum="-20" Maximum="20">(A:Plane pitch degrees,degrees) /-/</Value>
<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value= "20" X="106" Y="140"/>
<Item Value= " 0" X="106" Y="310"/>
<Item Value= "-20" X="106" Y="480"/>
</Nonlinearity>
<Delay PixelsPerSecond="100"/>
</Shift>

</Element>


<Mouse>
<Tooltip>Inclinometer (%((A:Plane pitch degrees,degrees) /-/)%!3.1f°)</Tooltip>
</Mouse>


</Gauge>

Looking at the photo of the cockpit it looks as if it is a Short & Mason instrument. I first used it on my Miles M13 Hobby, but also on later ones e.g. Percival Gull.

Milton has a good description of the set up.
Keith

[Milton Shupe]

For the NEW textures to have the desired level of resolution and detail, I wish to create textures twice or more in size to the existing Vimy bmps (see attached).


Vimy Pitch indicator background bmp.


WIP AVRO Pitch indicator background bmp.

I have tried enlarging all 5 bitmap elements in proportion but the gauge no longer shows or functions as required. :-/

My understanding of XML gauges is poor to say the least - is there something in the coding that should change when going from 66 x 147 background bmp to 132 x 294 background bmp???

The gauge XML coding is:


<Gauge Name="pitch_indicator" Version="1.0">
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_background.bmp"/>

<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<MaskImage Name="pitch_indicator_liquid_window.bmp"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_liquid.bmp"/>
<Shift>
<Value Minimum="-90" Maximum="90">(A:Plane pitch degrees,degrees) /-/</Value>
<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="90" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="23" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="20" X="29" Y="21"/>
<Item Value="10" X="29" Y="46"/>
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
<Item Value="-10" X="29" Y="97"/>
<Item Value="-20" X="29" Y="122"/>
<Item Value="-23" X="29" Y="125"/>
<Item Value="-90" X="29" Y="132"/>
</Nonlinearity>
<Delay PixelsPerSecond="115"/>
</Shift>
</Element>

<!-- ========================= Hightlight ===================== -->
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_highlight.bmp" Alpha="Yes"/>
</Element>

<!-- ========================= Shadow ========================= -->
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>
<Image Name="pitch_indicator_shadow.bmp" Alpha="Yes"/>
</Element>
<!-- ======================= Reflection ========================== -->

<Mouse>
<Tooltip ID="TOOLTIPTEXT_SPIRIT_PITCH_INDICATOR"/>
</Mouse>
</Gauge>

Nigel,

This is likely simpler than it looks.

To help your understanding, open the Vimy background bmp in Paint ... yes, Paint or MSPaint or any program that will show pixel coordinates for your pointer.

These values represent the pixel coordinates on the background bmp, x, y. The first is the value on the bmp, then the x,y coordinates. You are telling the sim where on the bmp these values are found in pixel locations.

<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="90" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="23" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="20" X="29" Y="21"/>
<Item Value="10" X="29" Y="46"/>
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
<Item Value="-10" X="29" Y="97"/>
<Item Value="-20" X="29" Y="122"/>
<Item Value="-23" X="29" Y="125"/>
<Item Value="-90" X="29" Y="132"/>
</Nonlinearity>


In Paint, find the X, Y coordinates:
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
with your mouse pointer, then look at the coordinates Paint has at the bottom.
Compare that to the XML values for Item Value ="0".
Adjust your mouse pointer to the xml coordinates:
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
You will then see where these numbers come from.
Do this for 10, 20, 30 positive and negative.
You should now understand how to adjust for the larger bmps.

Since your bmp is larger, the center location X="29" of the indicator will move farther right so you will need to adjust all occurrences of that and for the pitch indicator liquid, highlight, and shadow bmps.
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>


You need only to worry about these values; I think everything else will fall in place.

If you would like a video, just say so. :-)

[nigel richards]

Nigel,

This is likely simpler than it looks.

To help your understanding, open the Vimy background bmp in Paint ... yes, Paint or MSPaint or any program that will show pixel coordinates for your pointer.

These values represent the pixel coordinates on the background bmp, x, y. The first is the value on the bmp, then the x,y coordinates. You are telling the sim where on the bmp these values are found in pixel locations.

<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="90" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="23" X="29" Y="12"/>
<Item Value="20" X="29" Y="21"/>
<Item Value="10" X="29" Y="46"/>
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
<Item Value="-10" X="29" Y="97"/>
<Item Value="-20" X="29" Y="122"/>
<Item Value="-23" X="29" Y="125"/>
<Item Value="-90" X="29" Y="132"/>
</Nonlinearity>


In Paint, find the X, Y coordinates:
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
with your mouse pointer, then look at the coordinates Paint has at the bottom.
Compare that to the XML values for Item Value ="0".
Adjust your mouse pointer to the xml coordinates:
<Item Value="0" X="29" Y="71"/>
You will then see where these numbers come from.
Do this for 10, 20, 30 positive and negative.
You should now understand how to adjust for the larger bmps.

Since your bmp is larger, the center location X="29" of the indicator will move farther right so you will need to adjust all occurrences of that and for the pitch indicator liquid, highlight, and shadow bmps.
<Element>
<Position X="28" Y="12"/>


You need only to worry about these values; I think everything else will fall in place.

If you would like a video, just say so. :-)

Milton: Thank YOU for making perfect sense, Sir - you have explained it beautifully crisp, and clear (as always) :-)

VIDEO: Now that is always a great temptation, Sir - have to admit to being an avid IFRfun subscribed fan of your amazing series already. :-)
For my part, you have already explained the subject perfectly - but I'm sure a video for others would save hours of head scratching - threads tend to get buried away when you most need the Information...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC3...RK0eZv1Az7VqaQ

Those, and the private videos you kindly made before the public series are a Godsend - Thank YOU. :-)

[nigel richards]

Dev One: Thanks for the Short & Mason HU there, much obliged for the nice looking attachment from your Miles, my friend. :-)

[huub vink]

Again its really amazing to see the level of detailing you are adding to these beautiful models.

Cheers,
Huub

[nigel richards]

Again its really amazing to see the level of detailing you are adding to these beautiful models.

Cheers,
Huub

Thanks Huub - just so much awesome fun doing it all. :-)

[nigel richards]

... and if you notice a scenery of Old Sarum to go with them...

I think Nigel is creating a more antique look, backdating it.


Ttfn

Pete

Spot on, Pete - Man, you're on the ball, matey!

[nigel richards]

This is all I could find regarding the Avro Tutor in South African Air Force service: (info from the SAAF Museum, Ysterplaat, Cape Town)
51 built, 50 written off charge, 1 to technical training. There was 39 at the beginning of 1939.
Serial batches: 701-751

It started off with a 215-240hp Armstrong Siddeley Lynx IV C engine, & when spares ran out, a number were fitted with uncowled Wright Whirlwind engines.
The Tutor was choses to succeed the Avro 504N in the RAF's training schools in 1932, & a total of 394 were built for the RAF.

As a result of a tour of South Africa by Alan Cobham's flying circus & trials by the SAAF, with one of his Tutors, G-AARZ, the Tutor was selected to replace the Avian IV M for SAAF training.

Following the delivery of two Avro built Tutors, a production batch of Tutors was built under license at the Aircraft and Artillery Depot at Voortrekkerhoogte (Roberts Heights) in Pretoria.

The total of 51 is thought to possibly exclude a few more built from spares at the end of the program, & which carried serial numbers of aircraft already written off.

They were used pre war by the Central Flying School (CFS), (established at Zwartkop Air Station in1932) & continued in service mainly with 62 Air School (62 AS) in WWII, with a few issued to other units.

Only one Tutor eventually survived in South Africa & this aircraft, 721, was preserved by the SA War Museum.
It was unfortunately scrapped in the mid 1950's, & the only Tutor is preserved at the Shuttleworth Collection at Old Warden in the UK.

I could not find any colour pictures, but the museum curator advised that they came in silver & yellow.
The only information I could find regarding roundels is from decals..

Interesting history there, Robin - Thanks - very much appreciated. :-)

I'm sure we'll be able to deck-out a nice SAAF livery.

Funny you should mention the Avian; Initially I was going to include it within this Project (the early 621 shared various common structural components with the Avian e.g. tail/rudder). I now believe the AVRO Avian would make an interesting future Project.

[Dev One]

Avian......Dave Molineaux has beaten you to that one - over at flightsim....with loads of repaints by Peter Watkins.

[zswobbie1]

It was fun trying to find info. The library at the Ysterplaat (Brooklyn as it was called in the war years) Air Force Base has just gone through a revamp process & there is no index at all for the books, so it was a challenge trying to find information.
When I asked Barry, the acting curator, about the Tutor, he went blank for a moment, you could actually see gears turning, & he led me straight to the book.

Thanks, again,
Robin

[nigel richards]

Avian......Dave Molineaux has beaten you to that one - over at flightsim....with loads of repaints by Peter Watkins.

LOL Oh well, can't win 'em all I suppose...

Anyway; to continue Saturday's discussion on a NEW pitch indicator (inclinometer as I have since learned:-) for the AVROs, I couldn't resist Keith's suggestion of the Miles M13 Hobby's inclinometer. So I took that pretty little Hobby on a circuit, or five (lovely little aircraft).








Yup, no two ways about it - much better gauge than that of the Vimy, and with fewer components and larger bmp setup to boot.

So here comes the question, Keith: Would you give me your kind permission to use the gauge (with NEW textures) for the AVRO fleet?

[nigel richards]

It was fun trying to find info. The library at the Ysterplaat (Brooklyn as it was called in the war years) Air Force Base has just gone through a revamp process & there is no index at all for the books, so it was a challenge trying to find information.
When I asked Barry, the acting curator, about the Tutor, he went blank for a moment, you could actually see gears turning, & he led me straight to the book.

Thanks, again,
Robin

Robin, I believe this must be our Central Flying School, (Bloemfontein) gal. :-)

I'm putting my Money on Silver - what do you reckon?

[zswobbie1]

Yup, I'll go with that.

[Dev One]

LOL Oh well, can't win 'em all I suppose...

Anyway; to continue Saturday's discussion on a NEW pitch indicator (inclinometer as I have since learned:-) for the AVROs, I couldn't resist Keith's suggestion of the Miles M13 Hobby's inclinometer. So I took that pretty little Hobby on a circuit, or five (lovely little aircraft).








Yup, no two ways about it - much better gauge than that of the Vimy, and with fewer components and larger bmp setup to boot.

So here comes the question, Keith: Would you give me your kind permission to use the gauge (with NEW textures) for the AVRO fleet?

Nigel, you are more than welcome, & to breath your magic in creating new textures. I have only found 1 good photo of a Short & Mason inclinometer fitted to a Tiger Moth and a few B+W adverts from Flight Global. My memory is not sure of the colour of the fluid that was in the instrument in my fathers tool box - it might have been flourescent green/yellow similar to radiator anti-freeze.
Glad you enjoyed the M13, found the RAE Flight test report thanks to the librarian at FAST Museum.
Keith

[nigel richards]

Nigel, you are more than welcome, & to breath your magic in creating new textures. I have only found 1 good photo of a Short & Mason inclinometer fitted to a Tiger Moth and a few B+W adverts from Flight Global. My memory is not sure of the colour of the fluid that was in the instrument in my fathers tool box - it might have been flourescent green/yellow similar to radiator anti-freeze.
Glad you enjoyed the M13, found the RAE Flight test report thanks to the librarian at FAST Museum.
Keith

Many thanks indeed, Keith - I'll send you a copy of the textures should you wish to make use of them also.

I have at least 1 reasonably clear photo of the Tutor instrument panel indicating red liquid. As this makes for good visual clarity I'll probably end up going for red.

[nigel richards]

Laying down NEW textures for Keith's Inclinometer - must say it makes the world of difference to in-flight pitch reference.
So far, the basics are in place; now for some fun with light, shade cast shadows etc.

Night panel lighting will have to be adjusted for a little less intensity, too...