April 25th, 1945 70 years ago....

This date is celebrated every year as the official liberation of Italy from the German invasion and the last fascist troops, fighting alongside the Germans.

Since then, a national holiday in Italy. WWII officially ended here on May 2nd and three days later in the rest of Europe.

Documentaries shot during those days are more eloquent than simple words and worth hundreds of speeches.

Here are images of Milano on April 25th, 1945. The combatants wearing strange uniforms or in civilian clothes are partisans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKXyY6Ye7M4

This below was shot in Argenta first and Ferrara later, following the Allied troops advance. Two cities of my region, about a two hour car ride East of where I live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM3nNtcZh2k

This last one shows US 34th Division entering Reggio Emilia on April 25th. Shortly thereafter they arrived in Parma and Fidenza, my hometown. Highway 9, known here as Via Emilia, was built by the Romans and still runs on a West-East line through the entire region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu9VwjEHq1w

Least we forget.
KH

Really pathetic. Seventy years are passed since that event, wouldn't be time to start looking forward instead of past?

Why don't you celebrate the end of Punic Wars too? That has been the liberation of Rome from the Carthaginian. Why don't you celebrate that victory then?

Second World War has been a shameful page for the history of Italy, would be much better to forget instead of recall that past.

Wish you a good day.

Albix, from which part of the world do you came from?

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Originally Posted by albix

Really pathetic. Seventy years are passed since that event, wouldn't be time to start looking forward instead of past?

Why don't you celebrate the end of Punic Wars too? That has been the liberation of Rome from the Carthaginian. Why don't you celebrate that victory then?

Second World War has been a shameful page for the history of Italy, would be much better to forget instead of recall that past.

Wish you a good day.

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:censored::censored::censored::censored:

albix,

I would suggest you hold your tongue.

Do you even know what happened in WWII? To celebrate the end of war is to remember the reasons to either avoid it or to standup and face it again. So that the past isn't repeated. It isn't good to live in the past. Yet Those who forget it are Doomed to repeat it.

Next time you have a point why don't you do it with respect and honor.

Have a glorious day.

I woke up to this? Oy vey...

Albix,

There are about a million better ways to get your point across, (if that is what you intended to make) than what you chose. Do not be abrasive here...this forum is known for its courtesy and respect. I will not tolerate this type of caustic antagonism here. Consider yourself officially warned.

Stefano - Sorry you'll have to read this on Monday, but I am going to leave it up as an example for others of what not to do. Many thanks to other users in this thread who have taken the high road.

And to your point, I had forgotten about the actual date. I agree that for Italy, this is a major step forward. It's important to highlight successes and lessons learned from the past, and I can only hope that in the present climate of refugees streaming into Europe that other nations will step up to share Italy's burden.

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Originally Posted by alx

Albix, from which part of the world do you came from?

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Italy, I am Italian and I believe to have the knowledge and the right to criticize the behaviour of the country where I am from.

Also I wish that this forum were oriented to flight simming interests rather than to political discussions.

With all due respect to all of you, I hope you understand what I mean.

Wish a great day to all of you.

Albix,

No one is saying that you do not have the right to express your opinion. Just please do not be abrasive next time, and remember that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Sometimes i think we're a little too sensitive on off topic discussions around this global community, relying more on our American ways of political correctives and our feelings rather than simple cultural discernment. I knew from his tone and choice of words that Albix was (a) European, (b) possibly of Italian decent, (c) not too proud of the road taken by Italy during the war. Regarding his tone, in general, nationalities which communicate in other languages besides English and use it as a secondary language tend to express themselves in a more direct manner than those who use it as a primary language, which may sometimes seem caustic and indiscreet to native English speakers, especially of the American culture. He didn't use any foul language or direct attacks -- just expressed a bit of anger and shame regarding the Italian involvements with and against the Nazi's. I think sometimes that we native English speakers go too hard for the spin and polish and lose too much in translations, forcing ourselves to read between lines for truth and honesty.

While i do admire the expressed loyalty in the replies above, i think Stefano knows his fellow countrymen and is more familiar with Albix's contrarian viewpoint better than most of us North Americans. We should have allowed him the first response here and let them work this topic in a two-sided Italian discourse that we all could benefit from.

Just sayin'...:untroubled:

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Originally Posted by bearcat241

Sometimes i think we're a little too sensitive on off topic discussions around this global community, relying more on our American ways of political correctives and our feelings rather than simple cultural discernment. I knew from his tone and choice of words that Albix was (a) European, (b) possibly of Italian decent, (b) not too proud of the road taken by Italy during the war. Regarding his tone, in general, nationalities which communicate in other languages besides English and use it as a secondary language tend to express themselves in a more direct manner than those who use it as a primary language, which may sometimes seem caustic and indiscreet to native English speakers, especially of the American culture. He didn't use any foul language or direct attacks -- just expressed a bit of anger and shame regarding the Italian involvements with and against the Nazi's. I think sometimes that we native English speakers go too hard for the spin and polish and lose too much in translations, forcing ourselves to read between lines for truth and honesty.

While i do admire the expressed loyalty in the replies above, i think Stefano knows his fellow countrymen and is more familiar with Albix's contrarian viewpoint better than most of us North Americans. We should have allowed him the first response here and let them work this topic in a two-sided Italian discourse that we all could benefit from.

Just sayin'...:untroubled:

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I think your response is most appropriate! I am no kid, almost 78 years old, and a retired medical officer who served in the US Army for 23 years... Italy was my last duty station as Chief of Anesthesia of the last real military hospital in Italy... I went there in 1982 and lived retirement in Vicenza until the year 2000... AND SPEAK AND TAUGHT ITALIAN ... Although I think Stefano's statement MOST APPROPRIATE... I THINK LIKE YOU DO... We Americans have leaned toward political correctness way too much... Anyone has a right to an opinion - and that is what we ostensibly fight for... Yet, too often, forget about cultural differences and are way too judgmental...

... foreigners most often belong to a different culture that also often expresses emotions differently... and we expect them to behave like we do... and often pontificate from our culturally limited and many times provincial ethos point of view... NOT SEEING THE FOREST FOR THE TREES and BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE!

Let us not forget that our judgmental expressions - although expressed softly but carrying a big stick - can be just as abrasive to others as that which we criticize!

The motto... "being helpful is better than being right" (not a sic quote.. sorry) applies to EVERYONE! AND REMEMBER THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES!!! LOL
That being said (pardon the cliche')... Let's talk about sim.. not politics as someone aptly retorted... HAVA A NICE DAY

P.S.: I heard a good one the other day... Remember when you laugh at some foreigners' accents.. THAT HE OR SHE SPEAKS ONE MORE LANGUAGE THAN YOU DO!!!

Hallo, to all,

At first let me tell you who I am...

I am a German born in 1956 in Berlin, just one year after my father has come back from Russian captivity. A year later my father joined the newly formed Luftwaffe in western Germany. He spoke very little about the time he was a Stuka pilot in Russia. But even ten years of captivity he always had good words ror the Russian people!

He transmitted me two things, the love for flying and for other peoples.

He and also my mother learned to see the other, to try to understand them and to respect them. Later after having served myself in the German navy, I choose to live in France. Brittany become my home and there i found the second half of my soul, my wife.

Now my home is still in Brittany but for work reasons I live most the time in Munich. Later even living in Brittany as a reservist i passed two missions in Ex-Yugoslavia as a volunteer. Perhaps a lot about me, but to show you my background.

Albix choice of words was perhaps to discus, but hmmm there are some thing in them I understand "close the book and take a new one and go forward." I see there a sense. Yes I see also all of those who celebrate the end of a painful period in Europe. They celebrate also the end of war and the hope for new way in history.

There is a also a proverb that says "you cannot have a future without having a past."

Please all do not forget that every medal has two sides!!!!

So let us close this topic and think about that there are two different ways to see that date. And let us try to see what are behind the words before feeling offended by the words themselves.

Und Ende mit Amen und habt Euch lieb!

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Originally Posted by michaelvader

Und Ende mit Amen und habt Euch lieb!

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Amen to that!

My grandfather served in the Waffen SS, Legion Flandern. After being captured after the Stalingrad defeat, he spent more than 5 years in Siberia.

When I got my commission in the Royal Military School he was the only family member who was present, same thing when I won my beret and dagger of the Belgian Para-Commando Regiment.

There are indeed two sides to every medal. Even though he was absolutely on the wrong side during the war, he was just the nicest person during the short time that he was in my life.

Even though I belong to the progressive side of the political spectrum and the fact that I loath fascism and racism, I'm not convinced that my grandfather was either.

Live long and prosper!

Johan

Guys,

You are all correct, but I could recite the list of folks who have left over political spats and having their feelings hurt. I just want to make sure that this thread doesn't go there. As long as it stays the course, no problem.

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Originally Posted by Rami

Guys,

You are all correct, but I could recite the list of folks who have left over political spats and having their feelings hurt. I just want to make sure that this thread doesn't go there. As long as it stays the course, no problem.

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Rami,

I think on this board, this part of the site, which is without a shadow of a doubt the friendliest part of the site, you have very little to fear about things going nasty.

I didn't see nor read any harsh word, it was all very very civil. But war is a touchy subject. For all parties involved. I myself served in two of them and it scarred me, damaged me, as it would anyone. Therefor it is good to be able to voice your opinion and share your thoughts about them. On condition that it is done in a civil way of course.

The main thing that I will remember about this thread, is that WWII was one of the darkest parts of human history and that we should not EVER forget about it. We should learn from it. And the way things are going on in the world right now, there is still a lot left to be learned...

Live long and prosper

Johan

Righto. If I jumped the gun a bit, I apologize. I saw some posts where people were getting fumed and did not want to see it get nasty. It is remaining even-handed and civil. I will just view from afar.

If I jumped the gun I apologized. Please note that I consider many of the Members here as friends. Political views aside, If you start a discussion in that manner it will almost always be received in a negative way.

I echo the words of Bearcat, but the way to make us understand is complex. Many times you have misunderstood my intentions. (community here) Here there are no ways of expression to interpret correctly, because it is all written. A comma can change the meaning of a sentence.

What you need to understand the intentions. AND NOT TO take the hint ALL THE TIME. For that I'd rather be direct.

Life with the passage of time gives us the tools to understand each other better. It is maturity.

I suffer for all the suffering that humans have occurred throughout history until today. And I wonder some times if I do well in play this combat sim.

I thank to God that it's just a game. My wish is that the war was just a game without suffering.

Thank God my daughters are far away from any conflict. My country has had no wars for 200 years.

My country just send soldiers serving United Nations. And many comrades and some of my friends have died.

The soldiers are the first to want peace. Others are just silly. Coming from someone who likes to fight.

Cheers ,

Mario

It is a good anniversary to note and remember. Happy liberation day! :applause: :wavey: :)

Moderation tools remain in the box, thank you for remaining cool in the face of heated opinion. :untroubled:

I would have never imagined that mentioning an historical date just for the sake of remembrance, as it was done here by so many other members so many times before, would have stirred such a reaction.

I am not going to reply directly to albix, whose pseudonym I never saw before and, evidently, is either too young or, as many youngsters in this country, never opened a history book in his life. Probably, because real books are considered just rubbish these days and the Gospel is only what comes from e-books and the Net.

Besides, the fact that in his reply he suggests: "...Also I wish that this forum were oriented to flight simming interests rather than to political discussions." amply demonstrates he neither caught, nor understood the historical reference, if he thinks there was an obscure attempt to ignite a political discussion with my announcement.

He probably even lives inside of an egg, because newspapers and all kinds of media here have been explaining for 70 years that the April 25th celebration is dedicated to the end of one of the darkest periods in Italian history.

Therefore condemning, and not condoning, the 20+ years fascism ruled in this country.

Had albix opened a history book, he would have probably perceived and understood the deep sense of relief, the immense joy at the chance for a new start in life my mother and my father felt on April 25th, 1945. It can be clearly seen in the YouTube links I found and posted.
With them, all of those generations who, in Northern Italy were freed from nazi/fascist oppression and raised my generation with the constant reminder of what happened and should not, never happen again.

Probably the mass executions of Fosse Ardeatine, Marzabotto and Sant'Anna di Stazzema, among the many reprisal killings at the hands of nazi/fascist troops occurred from the end of 1943 to 04/25/1945, do not ring a bell in albix's ears.

If albix were born south of the Gothic line, I'd not be that surprised that he feels this celebration as "looking at the past instead of forward". War for Central and Southern Italy ended a year and a half before it did here, in the Po Valley.

Or, probably, he's among those in this country who feel that fascism should have never been defeated. Lord forgive us, there are still some of them around....

Celebrating the end of WWII, of any war at that, is everything but pathetic, as war is the negation of reason, of life itself.

At this point, I am not even sure he truly understands, writes or reads correctly English, otherwise he would have not missed the last sentence of my post, which explains fully the reason why I wanted to share the commemoration of this date.

Here albix, I'll write it again for you: "Least we forget". If you don't know what it means, learn about it and think about it when black-clad Isis will knock at your egg door. With Italians like you around, the day when the crescent will replace Western symbols in this country is not that far away. Perhaps you're looking forward to it.

Very truly yours,

KH

P.S.: I beg forgiveness to anyone else here if my words were too strong, at first I did not want to reply. In the end, I had to. Thank you for everybody else's support.

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Originally Posted by kelticheart

I would have never imagined that mentioning an historical date just for the sake of remembrance, as it was done here by so many other members so many times before, would have stirred such a reaction.....

P.S.: I beg forgiveness to anyone else here if my words were too strong, at first I did not want to reply. In the end, I had to. Thank you for everybody else's support.

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:applause::applause::applause::applause:

Remember what Bearcat cited above... THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY MEDAL!!!
and "nicely" abrasive... is still abrasive... ("being helpful is better than being right????)

One should not turn to downgrading anyone's knowledge of a language... ability to read... etc. etc.
the retort will still be abrasive and aimed to HURT... No Isis referrals here please....
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones around...
Facts are facts and emotions are emotions... AND NEVER THE TWINE SHOULD MEET!!!
The old adage says "From discussion light is borne" well, NO LIGHT CAN BE
BORNE FROM SUCH A MIXTURE...

Oh, Common Sense... wherefore art thou.... Political discussions should be refrained from in this forum...
Most folk just "ain't got what it takes" to peaceably discuss politics...

Passive aggressive is still aggressive... (i.e: You sound like an idiot... Oh, I don't mean you are one... Sorry if I
sounded too harsh...) I am still calling you an idiot... and that is a fact... No way to soften what I said...
So... everyone... let us put our brain in gear before we "floor" the word pedal...

p.s.: Sorry if my words seem to judgmental... hahahahahaha! Have a nice day... (mmm???) (do I mean that?)

ma va a quel paese...

I quote Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás (George Santayana in the US):

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

"Only the dead have seen the end of war."



Steve

I think all parties have been able to voice their opinions respectfully. Before it gets out of control, let's call it a day. If anyone has more on this, send me a PM and we can continue the conversation privately.