Fairey Firefly

Hallo Friends,

I just tried out Doug Smith Firefly for FS2004.
Gloups, in original configuration I could not get her airborne on the normal runway
of Vannes.Meucon. There is runway (beton) is long enough to take of a fully loaded B-17 !
I tweaked the flight tuning in the aircraft.cfg ,
parasite_drag_scalar=0.20000
induced_drag_scalar=0.20000
I'm sure that is just a temporary solution.
What is going wrong?
Because normally this plane should be able to take off from short carrier decks.
Hope that somme one can tell me about a solution.

Yours
Michael "Papi" Vader

Hey Papi --

There are a few FDE mods available for the Firefly, I did my own and shared it with Doug when he first released the model and this issue came up. I believe these can be found here in the SOH Warbirds Library, just search Firefly Mk.5 or "Fnerg" (Doug Smith). I also think there was an upgraded package that may have addressed this, as well as fixed a few minor issues with the 2D panel. If you can't find them let me know via PM.

BB686:US-flag:

Hallo Blackbird,

the latest Firefly entry I found is from year 2011
I havee also a Firefly fron Scrubby, seen just from the point of view of the FD' s. it seems better.
I find it strange but I feel the Doug Smith Firefly to fly as a piano as we say in germany. Or aslike a leaded duck.
Sorry to say it in so hard words.

Papi,

Like you I feel that the flt model for this excellent model is far too sluggish to enjoy. Not being a 'rivet-counter' with regard to in- flight performance ie I do not fly with the real world power, mixture and prop settings and check the models performance against the real-world performance figures.

So long as the flt model conforms generally to what you would expect of the model and type of a/c represented and enables good hand-flying 'touch and goes' in the circuit then I am happy.

In the case of this very good looking model, I tend to compare its size and general layout to a very similar a/c which has a proven and enjoyable flt model, then essentially clone the air file and flt model from the liked to the un-liked. Slight re-adjustment to contact points, lights, VC view point, fuel load, balance etc, and Voila! Nice looking a/c with nice flt model.

I absolutely concur with those who regard this as almost religious heresy, but hey, 'whatever turns our wheel or floats our boat', as some say . . . . Even the maker of this model admits that another air file would be advantageous if you are not into self-flagellation.

After all, who ever believes that simulated sex could be like the real thing?

Anway Papi that is what I do to nice models with over-trying flt characteristics. If you want the inside and dirty on what I did pse PM me.

PS: Guess this will stretch your English a little - but no more than it would my German. Thanks for the Tigercat 2D cockpits.

Rgds
Mal

Yes, there were problems with the original FDE but there are several modified versions out there. All are improvements over the original, some more than others. There is one I know of for sure that was done by Charles Backus (Napamule) that works pretty good. "Firefly FDEs V2"

The one I have will get the Firefly off the ground at 100 MPH in very short order with one click of the flaps. She cruises straight and true around 220 MPH indicated and a full flap approach will nearly drop and stop her on the deck of any carrier, or short runway for that matter. It's not un-realistic, the Firefly is a heavy airplane and in a gentle dive she'll very quickly top 400 MPH if you let her.

SO if you like the Firefly visual model with its superb 2D and VC as much as I do, then the modified FDE is worth a try. If not, she's going to fly like a cucumber...:greenbounce:

BB686:US-flag:

I have worked up a new FM that seems pretty realistic in all phases of flight. I need to do a bit more testing to ensure all is well but she is sweet on takeoff, climb-out, cruise, approach, and landing. Maybe this evening after my nap :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milton Shupe

I have worked up a new FM that seems pretty realistic in all phases of flight. I need to do a bit more testing to ensure all is well but she is sweet on takeoff, climb-out, cruise, approach, and landing. Maybe this evening after my nap :-)

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Attached is a modified FM for the Firefly. I do not know if it's better than what you have but it is better than what I downloaded with the package here at SOH.

Seems well behaved in all flight phases but you may have different expectations.

Much better lift and pitch characteristics, climb-out hits the numbers for me, cruise and range look good.

Better power range for takeoff and climb-out.

Descent and Approach characteristics much improved. Good flap lift and better nose down characteristics with gear and flaps deployment.

Also changed the tail wheel to castoring to improve ground handling.

Give it a try if you like; if you note any issues, I will try to correct, or modify yourself as you wish.

Thank you Milton. That's very kind of you. I'm going to use it as, it's probably great. :jump:

One thing I might suggest guys, is to check your fuel levels before you take off. There is a mighty tank behind the cockpit, and if it's full, I believe it's over a thousand pounds. So reduce your fuel weight beforehand, and then see if she responds more favorably.

Honestly, I don't know what to change in the airfile. I just don't have that understanding like some of you. I'm so grateful to Paul "BRADBURGER" Bradford for doing the flight dynamics for the Firefly. He gave me exactly what I expected, based on the data we found on the aircraft. I gave him all the engine data I collected, he then applied his own research, and I am very pleased with it. But, what good is it if it's not enjoyable. I understand, so I welcome this Milton, thank you.

Here Bradburger discusses getting the beast flying. It could be a transcript, but here is the note he sent me..

"DS Fairey Firefly MK5 FM v.1.0 for FS2004

The engine is modelled with +18.5 lbs of Boost

+8 or +9 lbs should be sufficient for take off and is also sufficient for the initial climb.

The tailwheel is fully castoring except when locked. Steering on the ground is achieved through the use of differential braking, rudder and bursts of power. (I'm currently using the modifed SIM1.dll with more realistic ground friction coefficients).

For take off, set the flaps to the 'Take Off' setting (2 notches).

Minimum temps for take off are:-

15 degrees C for Oil
40 degrees C for Radiator

The aircraft will pull to the right on take off. This can be countered with careful power application and lots of left rudder.

Climb initially at 125 KTS and raise the flaps in stages at a safe height, trimming as necessary.

+8lbs/2600 RPM should be used for a display.

The aircraft accelerates well in a dive but loses energy rapidly during vertical manoeuvres.

Loops & half cubans are possible, but an entry speed of 290-300 kts is desirable.

The following speeds are the minimum at which the manoeuvers should be started: -

Roll - 200 KTS
Loop - 300 KTS
Half roll off loop - 320 KTS
Climbing roll - 300 KTS
Upward roll - 350 KTS

Trim changes are as follows:-

Flaps - Nose up

Gear - Nose Down

Aim for 100-105 kts on the approach.

There is one 146 Imp gallon (175.3 US gallons) behind the pilot.

The AS.6 has provisons for 1 or 2 55 Imp gallon (66.1 US gallons) nacelle tanks.
(To use them, just remove the \\ // next to the 'Externa'l tank lines in the [fuel] section of the aircraft cfg).

Loaded weight is 12709lbs with full internal fuel and the pilot."

12,700lbs!! That's crazy. I've also included here the Power Settings and Fuel Consumption info from Paul. This may help you, or confuse you. lol. It could also teach you something about the Fairey Firefly. I try and comprehend the research I gather, but I'm better off providing data I suppose, then understanding it. I'm glad there are people like Paul and Milton, and a handful of others around this world that like to help out simply for the enjoyment. You guys offer so much to this flightsim community. We are very lucky to have you kind folks.

So hey, if you get something that works for you, GREAT! I'm happy that you are out there enjoying the Firefly. Happy landings! Let's see some screen shots!

Doug

Hey THANKS, Milton! I'll have a go with it and see what's what.

Other than it being a heavy aircraft when fully loaded, I don't know that much about this plane. I modded the FM initially so as to facilitate easier flying, back then I was still pretty much a "jump in and go" flight simmer. Once I got into beta testing, I was compelled to do as much research as I could before I lit any engines... you taught me that. Basically, I had no time in the type, when it came to planes like the "Turbo Stoof", and the Dash 7.

I still have the original Firefly FDE that came with the model when it was released, maybe Doug has a point, (after reading up a bit more about the plane). The fuel load alone would certainly have an impact on wing load to weight, and unless the outside air density was favorable for lift (more dense air vs. thin air... I guess), then yeah... take-offs in the Firefly would require lots of power and a long runway.

Still, it's nice to have options, I appreciate you "jumping in" and offering the "Shupe Industries" solution. :encouragement: Sounds like Doug's magnificent Firefly could be making a comeback!

Cheers -- BB686:US-flag:

fnerg: Thanks for modelling this Brit carrier a/c. A quirky beast to fly, but much loved by its pilots. Although a bit of a sluggard in comparison to its contemporaries, it had excellent manoeuvrability. Could take on intercepting OSCARs in a dog-fight and win. Also noted for downing a MiG 15 in the Korean War.

Milton: Thanks for the tweaked and modded FDE for the excellent model of this heavy RN a/c. Lovely in the circuit and carrier ops very straight forward due to the flaps and low-speed handling. You have given this model a really nice feel without compromising its heavyweight heft.

It is a great looking model for a load of new skins. Aussie first?

Mal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnerg

Thank you Milton. That's very kind of you. I'm going to use it as, it's probably great. :jump:

One thing I might suggest guys, is to check your fuel levels before you take off. There is a mighty tank behind the cockpit, and if it's full, I believe it's over a thousand pounds. So reduce your fuel weight beforehand, and then see if she responds more favorably.

Honestly, I don't know what to change in the airfile. I just don't have that understanding like some of you. I'm so grateful to Paul "BRADBURGER" Bradford for doing the flight dynamics for the Firefly. He gave me exactly what I expected, based on the data we found on the aircraft. I gave him all the engine data I collected, he then applied his own research, and I am very pleased with it. But, what good is it if it's not enjoyable. I understand, so I welcome this Milton, thank you.

Here Bradburger discusses getting the beast flying. It could be a transcript, but here is the note he sent me..

"DS Fairey Firefly MK5 FM v.1.0 for FS2004

The engine is modelled with +18.5 lbs of Boost

+8 or +9 lbs should be sufficient for take off and is also sufficient for the initial climb.

The tailwheel is fully castoring except when locked. Steering on the ground is achieved through the use of differential braking, rudder and bursts of power. (I'm currently using the modifed SIM1.dll with more realistic ground friction coefficients).

For take off, set the flaps to the 'Take Off' setting (2 notches).

Minimum temps for take off are:-

15 degrees C for Oil
40 degrees C for Radiator

The aircraft will pull to the right on take off. This can be countered with careful power application and lots of left rudder.

Climb initially at 125 KTS and raise the flaps in stages at a safe height, trimming as necessary.

+8lbs/2600 RPM should be used for a display.

The aircraft accelerates well in a dive but loses energy rapidly during vertical manoeuvres.

Loops & half cubans are possible, but an entry speed of 290-300 kts is desirable.

The following speeds are the minimum at which the manoeuvers should be started: -

Roll - 200 KTS
Loop - 300 KTS
Half roll off loop - 320 KTS
Climbing roll - 300 KTS
Upward roll - 350 KTS

Trim changes are as follows:-

Flaps - Nose up

Gear - Nose Down

Aim for 100-105 kts on the approach.

There is one 146 Imp gallon (175.3 US gallons) behind the pilot.

The AS.6 has provisons for 1 or 2 55 Imp gallon (66.1 US gallons) nacelle tanks.
(To use them, just remove the \\ // next to the 'Externa'l tank lines in the [fuel] section of the aircraft cfg).

Loaded weight is 12709lbs with full internal fuel and the pilot."

12,700lbs!! That's crazy. I've also included here the Power Settings and Fuel Consumption info from Paul. This may help you, or confuse you. lol. It could also teach you something about the Fairey Firefly. I try and comprehend the research I gather, but I'm better off providing data I suppose, then understanding it. I'm glad there are people like Paul and Milton, and a handful of others around this world that like to help out simply for the enjoyment. You guys offer so much to this flightsim community. We are very lucky to have you kind folks.

So hey, if you get something that works for you, GREAT! I'm happy that you are out there enjoying the Firefly. Happy landings! Let's see some screen shots!

Doug

---

Hi Doug,

Thank you for responding. And I hope there are no hard feelings with my doing another version of the FM.

I am confused by the comments above though as they do not represent what the flight model that I downloaded here at SOH has in it.
It does not have the fuel tank specified and fully loaded it weighs 11210 lbs.
It doesn't even have a station load for the pilot.

This does not sound like Bradburger's original work nor does it perform well on takeoff, climb out, or approach phases as I would expect of his work.
This seems to be a revised version of the original.

You might want to download the SOH version to verify it is as you expect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blackbird686

Hey THANKS, Milton! I'll have a go with it and see what's what.

Other than it being a heavy aircraft when fully loaded, I don't know that much about this plane. I modded the FM initially so as to facilitate easier flying, back then I was still pretty much a "jump in and go" flight simmer. Once I got into beta testing, I was compelled to do as much research as I could before I lit any engines... you taught me that. Basically, I had no time in the type, when it came to planes like the "Turbo Stoof", and the Dash 7.

I still have the original Firefly FDE that came with the model when it was released, maybe Doug has a point, (after reading up a bit more about the plane). The fuel load alone would certainly have an impact on wing load to weight, and unless the outside air density was favorable for lift (more dense air vs. thin air... I guess), then yeah... take-offs in the Firefly would require lots of power and a long runway.

Still, it's nice to have options, I appreciate you "jumping in" and offering the "Shupe Industries" solution. :encouragement: Sounds like Doug's magnificent Firefly could be making a comeback!

Cheers -- BB686:US-flag:

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vonernsk

fnerg: Thanks for modelling this Brit carrier a/c. A quirky beast to fly, but much loved by its pilots. Although a bit of a sluggard in comparison to its contemporaries, it had excellent manoeuvrability. Could take on intercepting OSCARs in a dog-fight and win. Also noted for downing a MiG 15 in the Korean War.

Milton: Thanks for the tweaked and modded FDE for the excellent model of this heavy RN a/c. Lovely in the circuit and carrier ops very straight forward due to the flaps and low-speed handling. You have given this model a really nice feel without compromising its heavyweight heft.

It is a great looking model for a load of new skins. Aussie first?

Mal

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Gentlemen, I basically got it flying generally correctly using the numbers provided in the FM. I did no research to gather my own data.
With that said, and with Doug's comments above, the aircraft is lighter than it's full advertised weight of 14,000 lbs so performance is a little strong at the lighter weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milton Shupe

Gentlemen, I basically got it flying generally correctly using the numbers provided in the FM. I did no research to gather my own data.
With that said, and with Doug's comments above, the aircraft is lighter than it's full advertised weight of 14,000 lbs so performance is a little strong at the lighter weight.

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A vast improvement over my original modifications, flies more like a Firefly now... instead of a Mk.XIV Spitfire.

BB686:US-flag:

I approve 100%. Thanks Milton. It flies and feels great. :) Can we add this new FM to the library?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnerg

I approve 100%. Thanks Milton. It flies and feels great. :) Can we add this new FM to the library?

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Thanks Doug. Do you want to do that with appropriate documentation (you are welcome to), or would you rather I do it.

And does it need changes before doing that?

Doug,

I was also curious if you added gauge back lighting to the VC.

I tested it using a vc01_L.bmp in the textures folders but could not get them to work.
That then told me you did not assign a Self Illumination texture to the vc01 material slot.

Just thought it would look so much better for night flights, but not a big deal. Just curious.

Hi Milton, a couple of little things. I found it a little tough to taxi in a straight line. The brakes apply very hard, and cause the bird to flip over nose first. And, it's easy to spin out on the ground when coming to a runway exit. The tail gets away on me. In the air though, it's very comfortable. Then there is the beeping. lol I don't know what I did, or how to stop it. That's not your doing though, just something that has been brought up before regarding the radio stack. How do you silence the beeps?

I would love if you did the upload with the proper documentation. Thanks.

I never knew anything about backlighting or how to achieve it, so no, but I would have. I love the look too.

The sad thing is that, my whole Gmax installation, which was set up to work with the Unlimited Export technique is long gone, and so is that computer. I doubt I would ever be able to recompile a "new" Firefly model. It took hours and hours, days, of just exporting hoping to get 1 complete aircraft. There is so much detail on that plane. I went way overboard. lol.

Cheers
Doug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnerg

I approve 100%. Thanks Milton. It flies and feels great. :) Can we add this new FM to the library?

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FM has been uploaded. Thanks again Doug for this awesome package. :applause:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...8&linkid=20276

Quote:

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How do you silence the beeps?

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No more beep :)

[Radios] //All features enabled, so radios 'work' in/on/for '2nd party' panels.
// Radio Type=availiable, standby frequency, has glide slope
Audio.1=1
Com.1= 1, 1
Com.2= 1, 1
Nav.1= 1, 1, 1
Nav.2= 1, 1, 0
Adf.1=1
Transponder.1=1
Marker.1=1

Thank you!

Doug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milton Shupe

FM has been uploaded. Thanks again Doug for this awesome package. :applause:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...8&linkid=20276

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Thank you Milton.