Just Flight's Constellation repaints ?

[Crusader]

Does anyone know of a good stack of military repaints for the Just Flight Constellation series?
C-69, C-121, EC-121 or any other?

Rich

[Crusader]

I know the Constellation is aging a little since it came out on Just Flight but I was hoping someone would do a " Columbine " repaint of Ike's Presidential plane . As previously stated , we really lack repaints to this popular old AC which a lot of us still fly frequently . I even fly it in P3Dv3.2 . Very few repaints for this grand old bird . I did find a couple over at Ox . Must be a real PIA to paint .

Rich

[Crusader]

Sorry , found an old (actually not so old) thread I had written and Daube had responded : " That Constellation has unfortunately some very outdated graphics, especially for the external model which looks like early FS9 stuff. I never saw many screenshots of it. In fact, the simmers preferred the freeware Constellation by Manfred and his team.
From my side, I couldn't decide between the two of these. The external model of the Payware Connie prevented me from buying it, but now it's one of the default planes in P3D, so I could finally fly it. What I like about it is the complete virtual cockpit, which includes the engineer panel, thus allowing a complete start from Cold&Dark.
The last version of Manfred's Connie I tried had an incomplete VC, the engineer panel was not available or not clickable, so a Cold&Dark startup was impossible from the VC.

Perhaps there are some additional or more valid reasons, like bad paintkits or bad texture mapping (mirrored, hard to edit, etc...) or stuff like that. Potential repainters would be able to explain this much better than myself.
It's a shame because a good repaint would probably compensate for the lack of polygons...

Bottom Line : going to download Manfred's Connie and give it a go .
Thanks- Rich

[thunder100]

Dear Crusader

my 2 cents

Nothing to sell,but i own every Connie from the late Howard (only2 D panel) to Alphasim to JF and was team member with all Manfreds Connies

Above statement may be valid for Alphasim but not for JF or MJ

That is JF

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36217&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36218&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36219&stc=1

Nothing wrong with exterior model ( Which is a mere nightmare to get right because of that shape

[thunder100]

And that is Manfred'S

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36220&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36221&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36222&stc=1

The highest developed ones are

L-1649 and the Turbine Connie by Volker based on Manfred's plane

lockheed_l-1249a_turboprop_super_constellation.zip

My 2 cents

Roland
(http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?do=copyright&fid=188451)

[jeansy]

Sorry , found an old (actually not so old) thread I had written and Daube had responded : " That Constellation has unfortunately some very outdated graphics, especially for the external model which looks like early FS9 stuff.

Perhaps there are some additional or more valid reasons, like bad paintkits or bad texture mapping (mirrored, hard to edit, etc...) or stuff like that. Potential repainters would be able to explain this much better than myself.
Thanks- Rich

Agree Ive always like the Connie, however all aspects of the JF/AH texturing of this model as been a huge turn off for me, after looking at the paintkits, the lack of detail has decided myself and others to look elsewhere, the time and effort to produce a detailed repaint is not really worth the time

[Crusader]

Thanks Roland and jeansy . I really enjoy both . A majestic old bird with a lot of class . A ton of repaints for Manfred's . I also found a Columbine II for it . A JF-Pan Am and Manfred's with Ike on board . Ike would be proud of me , I made it off Yakutat's (PAYA)shorter runway . :ernaehrung004:

Rich ( I'll have to try the turbo out- thanks for the link)

[Dragontech]

Agree Ive always like the Connie, however all aspects of the JF/AH texturing of this model as been a huge turn off for me, after looking at the paintkits, the lack of detail has decided myself and others to look elsewhere, the time and effort to produce a detailed repaint is not really worth the time
Looking at the Just Flight Connie "paint kit" I'd have to reserve judgement on whether it even deserves the name. I've seen worse paint kits, but I don't remember where. No, that's not true. The "paint kit" for the Just Flight Mosquito (the Mk VI with the 5-stack exhaust) is at least equally disastrous for repainting. No layers for panel lines or weathering or markings.. In fact, the kit for the Mosquito is just neon colored shapes for the various parts, with a label of what part it is. NO details. At least the Connie has a base layer that shows some details, but no way for them to show through, or overlay, repaint layers.

[bazzar]

The paintkit is not a "skinner's" kit. It was designed back in the day for re-painters. People who painted models from the base up including their own interpretation of detail, weathering, dirt and so on. That's what good re[ainters used to do. Today, people want layered files with everything there. Just slide the colour underneath and add a logo or two and it's done. Sorry, but that's skinning not re-painting. We tend not to supply those types of kits. They take longer to do and we'd probably have to charge for a kit.

[gastonj]

The paintkit is not a "skinner's" kit. It was designed back in the day for re-painters. People who painted models from the base up including their own interpretation of detail, weathering, dirt and so on. That's what good re[ainters used to do. Today, people want layered files with everything there. Just slide the colour underneath and add a logo or two and it's done. Sorry, but that's skinning not re-painting. We tend not to supply those types of kits. They take longer to do and we'd probably have to charge for a kit.

To make pay for, you only have these words in your mouth! You could just as well give photoshop (or other) sources of a texture delivered as a paintkit!
This is appalling!

JMC

[bazzar]

Whatever you say.

[huub vink]

The paintkit is not a "skinner's" kit. It was designed back in the day for re-painters. People who painted models from the base up including their own interpretation of detail, weathering, dirt and so on. That's what good re[ainters used to do. Today, people want layered files with everything there. Just slide the colour underneath and add a logo or two and it's done. Sorry, but that's skinning not re-painting. We tend not to supply those types of kits. They take longer to do and we'd probably have to charge for a kit.

That's called progress Bazz :biggrin-new:. In the "good old days" I didn't even have a program to work with layered files, so why would I ask for layered files? Now complex programs like for instance Gimp are freely available. So in my opinion its logical people ask for layered paintkits or skinnerkits as you call them.

I still do both. When there is a good layered paintkit available I will definitely use that one and add my own weathering etc. However I often choose to paint models for which there is nothing available, so I have to start from scratch. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with both options. The second options is however far more time consuming and often needs a lot of research. But I wouldn't call one option "better" than the other option.

Although I like to spend time making repaints, my main goal is still to create something which makes a model looks nice. It isn't my main goal to to spend a lot of time.

As said, nothing more than my personal opinion,
Huub

[bazzar]

Progress indeed Huub. I'm just amused how people get hot under the collar over projects and products a decade old. We have a guy currently demanding an upgrade on a product we developed 15 years ago. What other business exists where service is demanded on a product that cost maybe $20 and was purchased 15 years ago? That reminds me, I have a shirt I bought 10 years ago and the collar has started to fray. Maybe i can get a replacement....

[aeronca1]

That reminds me, I have a shirt I bought 10 years ago and the collar has started to fray. Maybe i can get a replacement....

:biggrin-new: If you succeed, let me know the company! I have several shirts like that!

[jamminjames]

The Connie is my fav propliner. Both Manfred's and Just Flight's. I know neither is state of art compared to some newer releases DC-6 comes to mind but I've been enjoying them for many years. Can't remember when I bought the JF but paid some where around $20 for it. I've sure got my money worth out that purchase.

[fsafranek]

Layered paint kits are a luxury if you have them to start with.

When I painted more often for Alphasim/Virtavia they all started from a single layer texture map of the wire frame in BMP format. From there you built something to work with layer by layer. And you were able to influence the mapping by talking directly to the modeler. When the product was ready for release I would dummy a copy of the PSD texture files down as much as possible to reduce the filesize and give the repainter something to do besides change the squadron badge and claim all the credit. I always felt that repaints were a good promoter of follow-on sales after the initial release.

But some companies (Carenado and Alabeo come to mind) only give you a non-layered set of white textures. And yet they sell like hot cakes and repainters who have bothered to learn the tricks of working with them crank out beautiful repaints.

So they are nice to have but not absolutely necessary.
:ernaehrung004:

[gastonj]

Whatever you say.

To day, a paintkit with layers is the minimum that a client can expect. Your words on the cost of a paintkit is simply out of order in addition to being presumptuous!
JMC

[llanning08]

May be time to consider "unbundling" paint kits and offering a "payware" quality repainter's kit as a separate product for additional fee.

I do not paint, so I've no use for a paint kit included with the product. Others may like a paint kit with a very basic model (single plain livery) sufficient to load up and to evaluate repaints.

And I don't expect that payware products of rather advanced age should be expected to have paint kits meeting standards not in practice when the product was originally modeled. Perhaps there is a market for re-worked third party paint kits?

Just my opinion, perhaps I have misunderstood some of the earlier forum discussion.

[Dragontech]

The paintkit is not a "skinner's" kit. It was designed back in the day for re-painters. People who painted models from the base up including their own interpretation of detail, weathering, dirt and so on. That's what good re[ainters used to do. Today, people want layered files with everything there. Just slide the colour underneath and add a logo or two and it's done. Sorry, but that's skinning not re-painting. We tend not to supply those types of kits. They take longer to do and we'd probably have to charge for a kit.

sorry, but I have to disagree. Other developers make PSD and PSP layered kits and include it with the product. The single-layer no detail, you might as well start from an existing texture file and paint over it your own colors, details, weathering etc. I've had to do that for a few planes that didn't come with any sort of paint kit, often replacing their blurry default details with higher resolution images from the web. Something like rivets and panel lines, or stencils, that don't vary from one paint job to another is often prohibitively difficult to replicate without having those layers in a paint kit.

What you call "reskinning" everyone else calls making a repaint, and it includes every bit as much research as a ground up paint, especially on military or restored aircraft, where you have few photos, often none of which are in color. That these are older planes I get that, and am not asking for "service" on them decades after the fact. I am stating my opinion on what you call a paint kit, that I view as nearly worthless.

[jankees]

woohoo, paying for paintkits. That would make me stop painting instantly. I do this for fun, and for free, I don't think anybody would pay for my repaints.
On the other hand, going through complete startup procedures is not my cup of tea, ctrl-E is fine for me. Maybe we should let people pay for more details like that...
As for old style versus new style paintkit, that's progress. Not many people would pay for a 15 year old model, but something new. There is already a just flight C-47, but I'm still looking forward for Baz's latest, if only to see how things have improved...
and who knows, there may even be a nice paintkit!
But I would be perfectly happy with just plain white textures like Carenado offers, no paintkit or layers needed.
And really simple to make for the developers.

[Dangerousdave26]

Progress indeed Huub. I'm just amused how people get hot under the collar over projects and products a decade old. We have a guy currently demanding an upgrade on a product we developed 15 years ago. What other business exists where service is demanded on a product that cost maybe $20 and was purchased 15 years ago? That reminds me, I have a shirt I bought 10 years ago and the collar has started to fray. Maybe i can get a replacement....

I once had a customer who called to have her Bolens Tractor fixed under warranty because it broke. It was 22 years old and she figured she had never used the warranty so...

This type of request comes all time to software developers.

Myself just do the logical thing and not provide a paint kit. There will be a painter out there who could produce a good quality layered paint. Let them distribute it freely.

[Desert Rat]

Whilst not a prolific or even good repainter, I have never used a provided paintkit, purposefully avoiding those models that come with them. Much preferring to make my own layered painkit. More challenging, definitely, more satisfying, infinitely. I agree with Baz entirely, plus there are many talented repainters around, ask in the right places or even wait patiently (I know, shock!) and your prayers may be answered.

With programs like Gimp, etc. available for free, heck, grab a copy and have at it, you never know you might even enjoy it.

:a1310:
Jamie

[bazzar]

To day, a paintkit with layers is the minimum that a client can expect. Your words on the cost of a paintkit is simply out of order in addition to being presumptuous! JMC You need to settle down my friend. There are one or two more important things in this life than paintkits, I can assure you.

[Jafo]

My first foray into painting planes was by rebirthing existing paints...so altering an existing bitmap at single layer. I never used anything to do with 'layers' for years. Then when I did find an existing layered kit for something it was often less than ideal [because PSP wouldn't open it and I hate using PS] being as low res as it can be.
When I had the urge...and a considerable amount of time...I'd rework a 1024 kit into 4096 and get absolutely anal with alignments....1 pixel at 4096 is 'anal'...
Of course, needless to say, I can't recall too many times when someone might say 'thanks for the detailed kit' so the days/weeks spent developing one had better be a labor of love aka hobby or it's a lost cause...;)

[wombat666]

Here's a thought.

First how about everybody settles down.

Secondly it is not set in stone that a developer (ANY developer!) is obliged to supply a 'paint kit', be it layered or plain vanilla.

I'm not a 'repainter' at all, and I'm grateful for the talented individuals that produce such outstanding work that covers my own area of interest and do it FOC.
However, I do not 'request' paints at all and IIRC the last attempt at commercialising this aspect of our hobby (McPhat?) fell over quite rapidly as the general run of the mill user was not prepared to pay anything.
I do believe developers who do provide a paint kit should be applauded, particularly in this time of change, but I repeat, it is not compulsory.

As for whinging over older releases, just stop doing so, 'Tempus Fugit'.

:173go1:

[tommieboy]

My repainting days are over but......

I am in agreement that good third party repaints do increase interest in the product, and may at times increase sales. I for one always needed a good layered paint kit (due to my lack of talent and time) as a starting point for my repaints and really appreciate the companies and individuals that provided them to the community.

Tommy

[tommieboy]

....I'd rework a 1024 kit into 4096 and get absolutely anal with alignments....1 pixel at 4096 is 'anal'...

That brings back some fond memories of Tim's A-12A Avenger II.....we both went nuts repainting that one!

Tommy

[jankees]

talking about going nuts, I'm working on a paint/skin for the Milviz PC-6..
Every single nut seems to be modeled, it's driving me.....you get the idea http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[pilto von pilto]

When you ask for a " proper" paintkit you are asking for source code. If you arent into software development you might not quite understand why there's push back on this so here's a n analogy.

Imagine going into a car dealership buying a car and then demanding to have access to the prototype and the service manuals. But not pay for it.
Now in the auto world we have people like Haynes who will take a car photograph it , disassemble it and then publish a book to allow you the end user to modify/repair the car. Or you buy the horrendously expensive and more complex written factory service manual. In the first case you are relying on a 3rd party to make the guide. In the second case you are relying on the car maker to publicly release the manual. In both cases you are going to need to pay. It isnt part of the first purchase.

The answer is paidkits ( yep I went there ! :) ) so say you want a westland lysander for Fsx. you have 2 choices buy the standard edition for 24.95 USD without paintkit or the deluxe edition for 29.95 with the paintkit. Then if at the end of say 6 months the purchases of the deluxe edition far outweigh the purchases of the standard ... well then you could point me to this very thread and I will tattoo mea culpa to my forehead. My thinking is that more people will by the standard edition. And if you want to make your own paintkit and offer it free even though the developer makes one as well... That's progress and the market and I hope that people will do this.

The inclusion or exclusion of paintkits does not increase sales/downloads/life of an addon. Most developers will do something but they arent duty bound to provide a "proper" paintkit

Also alluded to in this thread. Some of the fun of repainting is in fact ... repainting. If you dont have the time to spend on repainting then perhaps it's time for another hobby. I dont have time for plastic modelling so I stopped.

Full disclaimer :
1. we arent building a westland lysander. Cool plane but NO-ONE would buy it.
2. I cant tattoo meaculpa on my forehead I have " undies first then trousers " tattooed there and there wouldnt be any more room.

[huub vink]

Wow and this all started with the reasonable simple question:"Does anyone know of a good stack of military repaints for the Just Flight Constellation series? C-69, C-121, EC-121 or any other?"

Well obviously the answer is no!

I think the reason why became pretty clear from the discussion which followed.

Although I'm around for quite a few moons and done quite a few repaints and created many dozens of layered paintkits in this period, including several from the bare wire model textures, I had never been aware that there is something like a "skinner kit" which is obviously something different than a "paintkit". And I always though I made some "decent paintkits", but now I have also learned there there is something like a "proper paintkit" which somehow contains the source code (????).

But perhaps don't fully understand everything said here, I think it can be summarised by: "The sellers sells what he likes to sell, and doesn't give things he doesn't like to give for free" and "the buyer, buys what he likes to buy and although perhaps he likes gifts, he can not demand them".

And simplify things even more, people can get my work for free and Barry's and Mike's work costs money. (Which is valid for many other contributors to our hobby).

Cheers,
Huub

[Jafo]

That brings back some fond memories of Tim's A-12A Avenger II.....we both went nuts repainting that one!

Tommy
That we did....[I blame you]...;)
What I've always liked about Tim's bitmaps was how he managed to get almost everything on one bitmap [or two] so you weren't chasing alignments over multiple images....and that also meant the paints really benefited from being bigger res.
The stuff I mess with has to be user-friendly first for me to consider spending time and effort...though that Yak130 by Hadi Tahir was 'entertaining'...as what seemed simple really wasn't....;)

[pilto von pilto]

Wow and this all started with the reasonable simple question:"Does anyone know of a good stack of military repaints for the Just Flight Constellation series? C-69, C-121, EC-121 or any other?"

Well obviously the answer is no!

I think the reason why became pretty clear from the discussion which followed.

Although I'm around for quite a few moons and done quite a few repaints and created many dozens of layered paintkits in this period, including several from the bare wire model textures, I had never been aware that there is something like a "skinner kit" which is obviously something different than a "paintkit". And I always though I made some "decent paintkits", but now I have also learned there there is something like a "proper paintkit" which somehow contains the source code (????).

But perhaps don't fully understand everything said here, I think it can be summarised by: "The sellers sells what he likes to sell, and doesn't give things he doesn't like to give for free" and "the buyer, buys what he likes to buy and although perhaps he likes gifts, he can not demand them".

And simplify things even more, people can get my work for free and Barry's and Mike's work costs money. (Which is valid for many other contributors to our hobby).

Cheers,
Huub

Huub :
Yes it is source code. Your paintkits are source code. You are giving away ( as are we btw you dont pay for our paintkits ) your time/effort and techniques. You therefore have made the choice to give away your source code. We have been giving away ours.

Everyone :

I think a skinner kit is "Slide your colour and serials underneath this layer and push save and export ". Where-as a repaint kit is wires and a colour id pass. The first is source code. Every dirt/scratch layer, every rivet and every technique that the original dev used must be there and lately even a readme on why we did something the way we did. Where as the repaint guide is entirely up to the repainter.

Further to this PBR opens up even more of an issue.
Take a P40 warhawk as an example with the sharkmouth.
So you have the matte green of the paint but then the gloss of the mouth. Then you have another one where the position is different or a different design. Each metal map would need to be different due to the fact that the glossiness of a material is handled by one of the channels in the metal map. Not to mention the normal map as the height of the gloss paint is on top of the matte paint which introduces what is called micro-normals. How does a developer do that type of skinner kit ( " proper kit " ) ? I mean say you want to put a different type of shark mouth on it. We have to show you where in each alpha channel you need to put your edits. Editing alpha channels is hard as it is. To then make a skinnerkit for it ... well the mind boggles.

Full disclaimer
1. No we arent doing a warhawk.
2. DAAAAAMNNN however I wish we were, love those things!
3. Not an attack on Huub this is purely that he brought up a point that was salient to the general discussion.

[mgr]

Above is way to BLACK and WHITE:

1. You have repaintkits in a lot off different forms, from full layered which was used developer, to a bit more basic for the "skinners" as you describe.
2. The better the repaintkit, usually means more repaints = more exposure for the original design = hopefully more sales
3. The line between skinners and repainters as put in this topic is again not that black and white (as repainter i feel even insulted by some comments made in this topic)
4. A good repaintkit which i made in the mind of repainters, will make the "skinners" into "repainters" because they are challenged to modify all the layers (incl. specs en bumps) to fit there repaint.
This may need some more effort by the developer, yet see point 2.

Kind regards,

Marcel
FS Repainters since 1996.

[hairyspin]

I'm inclined to suggest supplying a wireframe template only, since apparently so few are satisfied with paintkits. That way they can decide how much or little to do. I have A2A's multi-layered Spitfire paintkit which is everything some are demanding and more, but (1) requires Photoshop and (2) is about the size of the model download IIRC. The A2A paintkit is also much more recent than the JF Connie: to slam a developer's old product by the current standards seems unjust.

Only my tuppence ha'penny

[jeansy]

Why dont you just lock this thread as everyone has different methods of painting and now its become a pissing competition on how i learnt or how i do. We all have learnt by differnet means and so what. These posts now are trivial.

All this thread is going to is discourage people who are contemplating on starting on learning to how paint or discourage people in gerenal to paint

The thread has run its course

[TuFun]

Bill got me started with his video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwHkzVszOMg

[stovall]

Why dont you just lock this thread as everyone has different methods of painting and now its become a pissing competition on how i learnt or how i do. We all have learnt by differnet means and so what. These posts now are trivial. All this thread is going to is discourage people who are contemplating on starting on learning to how paint or discourage people in gerenal to paint The thread has run its course Looking over many of the inputs from some of the great painters, for now the thread will say open. There is good input and as long as there are constructive comments people can learn it stays open. Painters, if you are so inclined let us know your techniques. There just could be someone out there that will become a great painter someday.

[stovall]

Bill got me started with his video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwHkzVszOMg Tufun, Bill's video that you posted is one of my very favorites. I learned a bunch from watching it. I still watch it from time to time to refresh. Thanks for sharing.

[magoo]

Edit: Doubled-up post. Can't figure how that happens.

Onward anyway.....
:ernaehrung004:

[magoo]

Well.....this is a most interesting thread. Certainly a clear demonstration that's there more than one way to paint with zeros and ones in a given technical medium.

In fact, the variation of technique appears to vary widely.

The nature of personal contradiction I'm reading above makes me think a little of described arguments that may have taken place between a collected meeting of Impressionist artists in an 1890's Parisian cafe while swilling Absinthe. Although the dialogue of many a discussion became heated and most direct, in hindsight, none of them was wrong.

Nor have I read any here who could be labeled, "wrong."

Certainly, the dialogue describes a divergence in expectation and technique among individuals, that is most apparent.

And rather than succumbing to negative emotion, it seems to me that there's a lot to celebrate about this lack of uniformity between desire, effect and deed.

Primarily, this could be seen as a discussion that celebrates pure creative innovation and application of artistic solution and expression with little restraint, in a truly global format.

It's a real privilege for me to have access to other's beautiful creative works, and read on the forums, the trials, tribulations, and ultimate solutions, as per "each one's own tune, in one's own style."

And......like the Impressionist painters, (or any other artistic style, genre, medium, generation).......the wide variety of technique and methods in rendering is what creates a personal style, that which readily connects with the artist.

That is an element that I especially cherish.

If I could, I'd offer up a couple of bottles of Absinthe to this table right now, along with a platter of small glasses and a big jug of water. But lacking that 3D in person capability, I'll offer a thanks to all the painters who give it up freely and enhance this great specialized exploration that we all share and enjoy.

Even notably now.....Tufun's posting of a video by Bill Womack. Holy smokes....the man has a channel of his own....I didn't know!! A sip of Absinthe and mouse click to subscribe....you know where I'll be most of this rainy afternoon. (Thanks Tufun!!)

Be amazed, try to learn, try to apply, and vive la différence!

:ernaehrung004:

[Greenhouse357]

Bill got me started with his video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwHkzVszOMg

Thank you Ted! I just learned a lot from Mr. Womack. By the way, love your car on another site!

Bob.

[pilto von pilto]

Above is way to BLACK and WHITE:

1. You have repaintkits in a lot off different forms, from full layered which was used developer, to a bit more basic for the "skinners" as you describe.
2. The better the repaintkit, usually means more repaints = more exposure for the original design = hopefully more sales
3. The line between skinners and repainters as put in this topic is again not that black and white (as repainter i feel even insulted by some comments made in this topic)
4. A good repaintkit which i made in the mind of repainters, will make the "skinners" into "repainters" because they are challenged to modify all the layers (incl. specs en bumps) to fit there repaint.
This may need some more effort by the developer, yet see point 2.

Kind regards,

Marcel
FS Repainters since 1996.

With respect.
1. Agree however , with new pbr techniques ( both in the generation of the textures and the way materials are set up ) this becomes tougher/less cost effective/ and less ROI See point 2.

2. Absolutely disagree here. Sorry but no extra sales. More exposure for the repainter yes agree with you. Not so much for the original development.

3. Again have to disagree with a caveat. If I were a repainter only I would see the greyness In that I agree whole heartedly. However I'm on the dev side.

Take a model that is UV'd but no textures in grey. Everything has to be done from scratch. If I were to ask a person to paint it from that point they would only have wires and colour ID. I would classify that person as a painter/repainter.
If however I had already done a texture, scribed the lines, rivets , made the decision where the dirt is going to go where the ground crew may have scratched something when replacing a bolt that was sheared off during a bumpy landing, done the normal maps, decals, noseart etc and tested it in sim then handed you every layer in a nicely named layer stack with comments and a readme then I am sorry but I classify you as a skinner.

I dont understand why you might feel insulted by that. Being a skinner is not a derogatory term. It's a different term for a different type of user. unless I am missing something.

4. I understand your thinking. and it is a good idea from a person who is an "fs repainter since 1996" However, we are developers. We arent trying to turn skinners into repainters. We're trying to make affordable addons that are interesting , different , cost effective ( to you and us ) and have a very good SPH ( smiles per hour ) that's our mission. If a skinner wants to become a repainter the onus is on that person surely ?

I'm not attacking Marcel here. Really I'm not, it is good to hear opposing points of view. I agree with some of what he says and definitely appreciate his point of views on others. But I am a developer. As such my point of view is going to be different. To use the car analogy a car manufacturer is going to have very different ideas on what they will produce and include from a features point of view, than an enthusiast. A happy medium has to be found. I feel we've found that.

I'd also like to thanK stovall for keeping the thread open. I didnt see the call for it to be closed in the posts since my last one but again let me say my posts might differ from your ideas ( as yours may differ from mine ) but we're all adults and we should be able to read differing opinions without the need to resort to thread closure. I'd like to think a developer has a right of reply and an opinion in 2019.

[Ascua]

Bill got me started with his video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwHkzVszOMg

Wow, wish I saw that earlier, lots of info! Thanks!

[mgr]

Skinner definition: a person who prepares or deals in animal skins

Think repainter is still the best word. Repainters do you have in a lot different forms and use different methods.

For the record i have also developed/designed for FS and made repaintkits. Have done repaints, with and without repaintkits or modified repaintkits.

Kind regards,

Marcel

[pilto von pilto]

Think repainter is still the best word. Repainters do you have in a lot different forms and use different methods.

For the record i have also developed/designed for FS and made repaintkits. Have done repaints, with and without repaintkits or modified repaintkits.

Kind regards,

Marcel

The term skinner comes/came from my background in software. You skin an application. Heck theyre called winamp skins. UI developers will skin an application in UX widgets. It's not a literal use of the word.

Either way the takeout is that in future a paintkit will be wires and ID. A repainter is going to be fine with that. A skinner might not but there are great sources on the internet ( Marcel here might be able to help plus the youtube video in this very thread ) that will help you paint from this point. And guess what you might enjoy it more as the outcome is purely yours and not some amalgam. You may even find that you'll find it more liberating.

[Jafo]

The term skinner comes/came from my background in software. You skin an application. Heck theyre called winamp skins. UI developers will skin an application in UX widgets. It's not a literal use of the word.



Pretty much the first 'skinning' eventuated when Nullsoft made a butt-ugly media player called Winamp [whips the Llama's ass...]...and a guy called FLy7e 'hacked' the proggy to alter the bitmaps used, and opened up to the world the whole potential [and entertainment] for GUI modification. Dedicated GUI and Shell mods/proggies came soon after as the idea caught on [and MS proved to be useless at aesthetics....WinXP and its Fisher-Price look was the final straw]. The most enduring of these mods is Stardock's Windowblinds - a Shell enhancement, and possibly the most fun was had with LoneRunnr's 'LiteSTEP' - a shell replacement which you used instead of 'Explorer.exe' [the Win Shell]. At the height of GUI skinning there were quite a few sites dedicated to the process ...the first was Customize.org, and [almost] the last still standing is Wincustomize.com. Even Deviantart.com started by Jark [would have been late 2000] was originally for skinning initially...expanding to cater for all digital art.

Before all that there were madmen [like me] that mucked with ASCHII codes to alter your cursor in Dos...ran various Dos shell replacements...or things like Calmira that turned Windows 3.11 into XP, etc. ... just so the appearance would be different/better.

Skinning was/is a generic term originating in the 90's for [computer proggy] graphic manipulation - which is what is done when you change graphics for a plane...and/or make your own 2D cockpit by coding and painting [as you do].

Proof of just how made we skinners got....there was even a proggy to alter the dreaded BSOD ....cos back in the day that was part of the OS you saw more often than not ...;)

[awstub]

I have only re-painted/re-skinned (whatever you may call it) a few airplanes. Some came with and some without, a paint kit. Some of the paint kits had layers and some did not. Each presented it's own challenge.
I use Photoshop and all I really need to be happy are a wire-frame layer (so I can find things) and a panel line layer (so I don't have to waste a lot of time fighting to get them to line up between halves). Anything else is just a nice bonus.

That said, when I choose to paint something, it's based on the model (and reference material I have for it), not whether it has a paint kit.

[fsafranek]

Pretty much the first 'skinning' eventuated when Nullsoft made a butt-ugly media player called Winamp [whips the Llama's ass...]...and a guy called FLy7e 'hacked' the proggy to alter the bitmaps used, and opened up to the world the whole potential [and entertainment] for GUI modification. Dedicated GUI and Shell mods/proggies came soon after as the idea caught on [and MS proved to be useless at aesthetics....WinXP and its Fisher-Price look was the final straw]. The most enduring of these mods is Stardock's Windowblinds - a Shell enhancement, and possibly the most fun was had with LoneRunnr's 'LiteSTEP' - a shell replacement which you used instead of 'Explorer.exe' [the Win Shell]. At the height of GUI skinning there were quite a few sites dedicated to the process ...the first was Customize.org, and [almost] the last still standing is Wincustomize.com. Even Deviantart.com started by Jark [would have been late 2000] was originally for skinning initially...expanding to cater for all digital art.

Before all that there were madmen [like me] that mucked with ASCHII codes to alter your cursor in Dos...ran various Dos shell replacements...or things like Calmira that turned Windows 3.11 into XP, etc. ... just so the appearance would be different/better.

Skinning was/is a generic term originating in the 90's for [computer proggy] graphic manipulation - which is what is done when you change graphics for a plane...and/or make your own 2D cockpit by coding and painting [as you do].

Proof of just how made we skinners got....there was even a proggy to alter the dreaded BSOD ....cos back in the day that was part of the OS you saw more often than not ...;)
Ah Winamp. "whip the llama’s ass". I worked at Musicmatch down here in San Diego and we had a kid there who did nothing but create skins. I'll get back on topic next post. Thanks for the reminder of the good old days.
:ernaehrung004:

[pilto von pilto]

ahh skinning. I did a few for wa2 and wa3 ( as it was back then .) and a few litestep/blackbox themes ( in fact I think they're still on dA somewhere ). I still remember going to work trying to find where I could put #ff00ff somewhere else rather than interacting with customers... Oddly enough maki scripting ( the scripting back end to winamp 3+5 skins ) is super close to xml/lua scripting which we all end up using in this hobby ! So it is all cyclical.

I actually miss the early 2000's app skinning scene. :dejection:

Ok enough reminiscing.

[gray eagle]

Nice repaint video, When I watch that video by Bill Womack, Bert's (Bert and Ernie Sesame street) voice comes to mind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDJsgtoizj8

[Jafo]

ahh skinning. I remember going to work trying to find where I could put #ff00ff somewhere else rather than interacting with customers...
Ah....'magic pink'....if you Google 'Blame Maxim' you may just find a WA 2.9x skin that took magic pink to its 'illogical' limits [in Winamp].... 8000+ co-ordinates coded by hand until a guy called Maxim took pity on me and wrote a little script/proggy that would do it at a click of a button.
I still use the skin....a reminder of a 'forgotten' era...when the CEO of Nullsoft called me a 'clusterf***' for standing up for the copyrights of the artist/skinner...;)

[pilto von pilto]

Ah....'magic pink'....if you Google 'Blame Maxim' you may just find a WA 2.9x skin that took magic pink to its 'illogical' limits [in Winamp].... 8000+ co-ordinates coded by hand until a guy called Maxim took pity on me and wrote a little script/proggy that would do it at a click of a button.
I still use the skin....a reminder of a 'forgotten' era...when the CEO of Nullsoft called me a 'clusterf***' for standing up for the copyrights of the artist/skinner...;)


I'm using "Act2 Finale by Raj. I/O " on audacious ( linux support ) listening to bootsy collins right now :redfire: "if you hear any noise it's just me and the boys getting down.... ". To be honest I use it in shade mode along the top of the screen mainly. I should make a winamp skin that looks like a modo popout ( or a 3dsmax quad menu if I ever go back ) to make it look part of what I am doing... hmmm... nah got too much to do !

[stovall]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Seem this thread has run it's course and is wanders off topic. Time to move on and close this one.