OT: Dovetail to launch two new flight sim titles in 2016

[hschuit]

Dovetail Games made an interesting announcement today, some of the highlights:

"The big questions are: What is happening with the announced Dovetail Games Flight Simulator (DFS)? Are Flight School and DFS the same? Will Flight School turn into DFS?
Firstly, Flight School is not DFS. Flight School is a standalone experience designed to teach players the basics of flight simulation in a fun, accessible way. Flight Simulator is still very much in active development, and upon release will be a much bigger and feature-rich simulator."

"DTG Flight Simulator is still very much in development and is planned to be more expansive and evolved than Flight School. We are committed to developing a cutting edge flight simulator which takes full advantage of modern PCs and can be continuously built upon. For starters, Dovetail Games Flight Simulator will be a 64-bit simulator using DirectX 11 and take full advantage of modern GPU and CPU performance."

Read the entire community announcement here:
https://cdn.shoutlet.com/file/18677/5034582.pdf

[txnetcop]

I knew this would be a natural progression. Glad to see it!:applause::applause::applause:
Ted

[YoYo]

Maybe it will be reanimation of MS Flight! ? If yes, I can't be happy....

The first screen:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtp1/t31.0-8/12658014_586193848224132_9195931554282161615_o.jpg

[YoYo]

Btw. DTG Flight School will be a 64-bit simulator using DirectX 11 and take full advantage of modern GPU and CPU performance.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/314160/discussions/16/412446890550990408/

https://cdn.shoutlet.com/file/18677/5034553.jpg

[Scandinavian]

So now the big question is, will scenery and aircraft be easy to convert. That's the make it or break it of a new simulator in my mind.

[heywooood]

Sounds good to me

[Montie]

I think this is what we need to keep the genre alive, as they say we have properly lost two generations of flight simmers, maybe two generations of third party developers as well. I look forward to see what they can do.

[pilto von pilto]

Well I'm optimistic. Any new simulator(s) even if it isnt a bona-fide success has excellent ramifications for current simulator use and future community longevity. More people into this hobby = more developers = more products at a more frequent rate.

I think the issue of porting scenery/planes isnt the biggest question. My question would be how open will the new simulator(s) be to third party? I remember the product manager of Flight at MS saying that third party support was a high priority and we all know how that one turned out. No I think the question of third party support is greater than backwards compatibility as without third party support you dont have backwards compatibility.

Could we be seeing a re-emergence of the heady days of the early 2000's ? When every-one had a little more hair, a little less belly and the beer just seemed to taste a little better. :encouragement:

Oh and if someone from DTG is reading this. Flowing frothy cold beers will be bought in your honour today at AH towers. :very_drunk:

[StormILM]

I hope DTG is working up an SDK that will help Dev's migrate current high end FSX/P3D products over to their platform. That would be a true plus to get most of the addons we have now into a 64bit platform. It would remove many of the known limitations and shortcomings of FSX. I also have a suggestion for the Mods here, it would be a great idea to extend an open discussion invitation thread between DTG and all the Devs (payware & freeware) to get an early jump on cultivating ideas for migration and new products. This could be a real Win-Win move.

[YoYo]

I hope DTG is working up an SDK that will help Dev's migrate current high end FSX/P3D products over to their platform. That would be a true plus to get most of the addons we have now into a 64bit platform. It would remove many of the known limitations and shortcomings of FSX. I also have a suggestion for the Mods here, it would be a great idea to extend an open discussion invitation thread between DTG and all the Devs (payware & freeware) to get an early jump on cultivating ideas for migration and new products. This could be a real Win-Win move.

+1 I hope too but I think it will be, they did FSX:SE and know that this market is very, very big.

[hairyspin]

Btw. DTG Flight School will be a 64-bit simulator using DirectX 11 and take full advantage of modern GPU and CPU performance.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/314160/discussions/16/412446890550990408/

Where did you read that? I can only see the following:–

Dovetail Games Flight Simulator will be a 64-bit simulator using DirectX 11 and take full advantage of modern GPU and CPU performance.


There are two titles announced: (1)DTG Flight School and (2)DTG Flight Simulator. The second is to be the real deal.

[JimmyRFR]

I think it's a great announcement - I applaud the effort they're sinking into it.

Might be a good strategy as well. Release a tightly controlled, fully self contained first version (DTG Flight School), which will serve to not only gain new customers but to test new technologies without the added complexity of dealing with third party addons. Then, once the platform is refined slightly, and they have some experience with how it's being perceived, they release what they are describing as a 'proper' full flight sim (DTG Flight Simulator) complete with, we're presuming, third party support.

The fact that they're releasing two separate, but closely related, flight simulators is going to confuse the heck out of everyone however, and likely make any thread like this a mess as people weigh in on either or both versions! :mixed-smiley-010:

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

I did a quick comparison between DTG Flight School and FSX:

FSX
http://i.imgur.com/TJuFTef.jpg

Flight School
http://i.imgur.com/DiMCkNZ.jpg

[JimmyRFR]

I did a quick comparison between DTG Flight School and FSX:

FSX
http://i.imgur.com/TJuFTef.jpg

Flight School
http://i.imgur.com/DiMCkNZ.jpg


Good job. That's darn near exact placement there... how did you know where to go?

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

Good job. That's darn near exact placement there... how did you know where to go?

Thanks! It was this post (http://www.avsim.com/topic/482636-news-on-dtg-simulator-is-coming-soon/page-23#entry3371150) that determined the airport for me. After that, it was a matter of carefully slewing around and making slight adjustments over and over. It's not perfect, but it gets the job done. I also have the technique down to a science after doing many of the same style of comparisons for Microsoft Flight several years ago. :P

[JimmyRFR]

Thanks! It was this post (http://www.avsim.com/topic/482636-news-on-dtg-simulator-is-coming-soon/page-23#entry3371150) that determined the airport for me. After that, it was a matter of carefully slewing around and making slight adjustments over and over. It's not perfect, but it gets the job done. I also have the technique down to a science after doing many of the same style of comparisons for Microsoft Flight several years ago. :P

Heh, I've posted in that thread a few times, but since the announcement I've stayed away... I suspect it's going to become the exact type of mess I was referring to.

Interesting to see the differences (and similarities) for sure. Looks like the same mesh, same landclass data, and same vector data (at least as far as the river is concerned) as FSX has.

[YoYo]

Btw. check this info:


Flight school is a standalone experience and is not compatible with add-ons or content released for other simulators. - Martin

and this


DTG Flight School There will be a Free Flight mode, for those players who want to head off and explore the entire world . - Martin

so it will not be the next MS Flight! with small part of the one area only....

@hairyspin (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/member.php?34022-hairyspin)
The answer is Martin from DTG. The engine will be te same.

Full version will open for 3th party developers and maybe free addons (but its a my idea), Flight school not. We must wait for more info. It will be interesting Year!

[StormILM]

The more I hear & see, the more confident I am that this will be the true future & continuation of where FSX left off with DTG incorporating a lot more technology and graphics progression beyond FSX and MS Flight. I don't foresee any reason why there wouldn't be considerable effort to help get more Devs into this Sim (creating new products) as well as helping pave the way for current Dev's to migrate their current products (similar to some original FSX models being migrated to X-Plane and DCS). I truly hope DTG places no restrictions on Freeware Development as such was the genesis of the legacy platforms and addons growing into what we currently have. Freeware scenery and aircraft are just as much the lifeblood of the hobby.

[Boss86001]

I'm looking forward to it especially if it is based off the Flight engine.

[Mach3DS]

P3D already looks this good and incorporates everything other than 64bit that I see in that screenshot. It's already here in P3Dv3.1. Just saying. Why wait for something that may or may not be what you're hoping for. Almost everything currently available is compatible with P3Dv2 or v3. Very few addons do not work. There are some, but generally they are taken care of quickly. Gents, honestly, if you haven't taken the plunge....P3D is where it's at. v3.1 has laid the foundation in features "under the hood". It's the gateway update to some really impressive stuff coming.

[JimmyRFR]

Why wait for something that may or may not be what you're hoping for.

There's no waiting involved, really. All of us have one or more sims that we're currently flying, likely happily so. Myself, I have FSX, FSX:SE, P3Dv3, XP and DCS to keep me, er, busy. But that doesn't mean that I'm not looking forward to seeing whatever might be coming on the horizon.

[Mach3DS]

There's no waiting involved, really. All of us have one or more sims that we're currently flying, likely happily so. Myself, I have FSX, FSX:SE, P3Dv3, XP and DCS to keep me, er, busy. But that doesn't mean that I'm not looking forward to seeing whatever might be coming on the horizon.
Good point! I suppose if it does t pan out we'll stick with the current.

[zswobbie1]

I'm looking forward to it especially if it is based off the Flight engine.

Not. Based on FSX.

[zswobbie1]

I think it's a great announcement - I applaud the effort they're sinking into it.

Might be a good strategy as well. Release a tightly controlled, fully self contained first version (DTG Flight School), which will serve to not only gain new customers but to test new technologies without the added complexity of dealing with third party addons. Then, once the platform is refined slightly, and they have some experience with how it's being perceived, they release what they are describing as a 'proper' full flight sim (DTG Flight Simulator) complete with, we're presuming, third party support.

The fact that they're releasing two separate, but closely related, flight simulators is going to confuse the heck out of everyone however, and likely make any thread like this a mess as people weigh in on either or both versions! :mixed-smiley-010:

Not really closely related. One is a Flight School sim, a closed platform, (no 3rd party add-ons) the other is a Flight sim, hopefully with 3rd party add-ons.

Could this be similar to FSX, but with the training missions take out & now a separate program?

[zswobbie1]

This seems like they have taken FSX, taken out the training missions with lessons & made it into a separate program, & modernized it to 64bit, DX11.

Anyone know how compatible 32bit add-ons will be?

[JimmyRFR]

Not really closely related. One is a Flight School sim, a closed platform, (no 3rd party add-ons) the other is a Flight sim, hopefully with 3rd party add-ons.


Not related in function or purpose, but it's likely that they'll share the same engine. I meant 'closely related' from a technical standpoint. I'm sure they're going to use the experience they gain with their initial release to tune and work with the latter release.

The expected target market for each, and purpose for existing, is clearly far apart.

[StormILM]

This seems like they have taken FSX, taken out the training missions with lessons & made it into a separate program, & modernized it to 64bit, DX11.

Anyone know how compatible 32bit add-ons will be?

That's the $50,000 question many want to know. I've heard a number of sources note that every addon from FSX would come to a grinding halt in a 64bit version (supposedly due to gauges and a number of other factors) but I've heard others say that's not necessarily the case or at all. I do take note that FSX and P3D are both 32 bit programs which will run fine on a 64bit OS. I do understand the difference, the addons are built/optimized to run inside a 32bit program but I still believe there is likely a logical (and possibly painless way) to migrate. Maybe I'm wrong on my supposition of the latter but I'm sure this is being looked at and worked on from every conceivable angle. With regards to the question of "why not just go ahead and get P3Dv3"?, my biggest ill (as well as many users) is the VAS limitation and other bugs related to memory, etc. I think DFS is going to pretty much cure all the FSX bugs and open a whole new world of capabilities (if I am reading the tech end of all this correctly). I believe both DFS and P3D will end up sharing a number of common elements and this news (regarding DFS being 64bit from the get-go) seems to parallel the word that P3D will get similar 64bit treatment in due course. I don't think any of us will be disappointed in the end product but I do believe the current FSX user migration will be gradual much as it was for many who changed over from a long use of FS9 over to FSX during the last decade.

[Firekitten]

Lost two generations of developers?


I'm in my late 20s... I consider myself one of those generations.

We are still finding new ways to bring features to fsx and p3d, so its hardly dead, in fact, i'd say its more inovative and creative than ever.

Plus, they make a point of avidly avoiding p3d... dx11... 64 bit....


What if their new flightsim is simply the same line of evolution with an entertainment licence? its clearly been done and thus possible... why work with flight, a broken piece of gosa, when an architectural direction of evolution exists?

[YoYo]

I hope not only for Windows 10.

https://news.xbox.com/2016/02/11/dovetail-games-flight-school-for-xbox-one-in-april/

[zswobbie1]

Mmmmm, Interesting....

[SpaceWeevil]

P3D already looks this good and incorporates everything other than 64bit that I see in that screenshot. It's already here in P3Dv3.1. Just saying. Why wait for something that may or may not be what you're hoping for. Almost everything currently available is compatible with P3Dv2 or v3. Very few addons do not work. There are some, but generally they are taken care of quickly. Gents, honestly, if you haven't taken the plunge....P3D is where it's at. v3.1 has laid the foundation in features "under the hood". It's the gateway update to some really impressive stuff coming.

I agree with everything you say about P3D, but at least this holds out the prospect of a new sim / upgrade path for the many FSX users who don't qualify to use P3D. Also, maybe, a way back into flight simulation at home if P3D gets too 'professional' down the line.

[StormILM]

I hope not only for Windows 10.

https://news.xbox.com/2016/02/11/dovetail-games-flight-school-for-xbox-one-in-april/

They stated very early that this will be a Windows 10 only platform and I've seen no revision of that plan to include W7 or W8. My guess is that W10/x64 will allow more room for new features and future expansion.

[Naismith]

They stated very early that this will be a Windows 10 only platform and I've seen no revision of that plan to include W7 or W8. My guess is that W10/x64 will allow more room for new features and future expansion.

If so, then I think that is me done after 22 years of MSFS. Haven't had any games (I tell a lie, I did reinstall Skyrim) on my PC since the "Great Windows 10 Calamity" of October. Lost all enthusiasm and found other things to amuse me.

[bazzar]

Not sure what all the fuss is about frankly. There is absolutely no reason on earth why anything in FSX should be compatible, backwards or anything else. There is no reason why existng FSX productions should be made to be compatible. This is a completely new game and should be considered as such. The only assessment you really need to make is whether it is what you'd like to play or not. Like P3D , Xplane, DCS or any other simulator game out there.

Similarly, you want an XBox game, You buy an XBox.

If the operating system has to be W10/64 than so be it. You either go with that or not. Why do we assume these people have to owe us anything? They have supported FSX to give it a future and will increase its potential. They are introducing a new fun "sandbox" training scenario and now released the master plan for a new simulator. Good for them. And good for us...:engel016:

[StormILM]

Bazzar, I agree with much of what you noted but to point out what DTG noted thus far regarding forward compatibility, unless something has changed (or may change) they did indicate there was going to be some cross-platform compatibility (much as it was with a number of FS9 models porting well into FSX). It's logical to assume that there will be a number of antiquated addons which are probably not going to make the grade but there is very good reason to migrate higher end models & scenery over to the new Sim. Another reason I believe this is that I read what PMDG noted about upgrading their products for a future 64bit version of P3D. I assume that they would not have made that statement (or hint) unless there was something very significant behind it and I'd further assume they wouldn't want to cut short the sale of their existing product line (for FSX and P3D) by not moving them into 64bit versions of both Sims. Of course re-builds/updates for migration is one thing, I agree that the true point of all this will be to also have a brand new starting point (again, much as FSX gave us what we have now compared to FS9).

Naismith, sorry to hear that. I concluded that I'd stay in W7x64 as long as I possibly can as too many folks have lost use of their Sim due to compatibility issues that were not tested thoroughly nor resolved before many jumped on-board W10. I feel certain though that in this case (as has been with P3Dv3), the guys behind DFS will have beaten the dents out of this Sim well before we get our hands on it. From there, we are a community of problem solvers and thinkers and I feel certain we'll be able to deal with issues as we get settled into the new Sim when it comes out.

[mikew]

Bravo Bazzar... well said!

Mike

[txnetcop]

I agree Baz...it's time for something new, not a throwback to what we already have. FSX is fine and will continue just as FS9 has. I'm looking forward to a whole new flight simulator.
Ted

[Firekitten]

The Windows 10 screaming amuses me... only flightsimmers seem to be upset, but its actually a great OS. Stable, efficient, fast, and runes P3d and Fsx fine... wazza problem?

[Rimshot]

They stated very early that this will be a Windows 10 only platform and I've seen no revision of that plan to include W7 or W8. My guess is that W10/x64 will allow more room for new features and future expansion.

Source please. In the official announcement on their website it says: 'Dovetail Games Flight School and Dovetail Games Flight Simulator will both be available on PC'. No mentioning whatsoever of the sims being released exclusively for Window 10 systems.

[StormILM]

Source please. In the official announcement on their website it says: 'Dovetail Games Flight School and Dovetail Games Flight Simulator will both be available on PC'. No mentioning whatsoever of the sims being released exclusively for Window 10 systems.

This from DTG's Facebook page dated August 7, 2015:
"Dovetail Games At this moment in time we are only targeting a Windows 10 release and are fully focused on creating the best possible flight simulation we can for the PC platform.Whilst we may look into a console release down the line at the moment our efforts are exclusively PC based."

[stansdds]

The Windows 10 screaming amuses me... only flightsimmers seem to be upset, but its actually a great OS. Stable, efficient, fast, and runes P3d and Fsx fine... wazza problem?

Forced upgrade of OS and possibly a whole new computer, that's likely the problem. Same problems when FSX came out. A lot of us, including me, did not have computers that would run FSX. For FSX we all had to upgrade to at least Windows XP. I see the point of focusing development of a new flight sim on Windows 10. MS has stated that Windows 10 will be the last major version of Windows, it will be the base upon which future upgrades and improvements will be made and support for all previous versions of Windows will eventually be dropped. Why code a new sim for old operating systems that MS has said they will stop supporting? FSX has hit a wall with the 32-bit limitation, it's time for something fresh and new, something that can take full advantage of a 64-bit environment and modern hardware.

[n4gix]

This from DTG's Facebook page dated August 7, 2015:
"Dovetail Games At this moment in time we are only targeting a Windows 10 release and are fully focused on creating the best possible flight simulation we can for the PC platform.Whilst we may look into a console release down the line at the moment our efforts are exclusively PC based."

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! :mixed-smiley-027:</bang!>

[ncooper]

There is no mention of "exclusive" except here.

They do say Direct X 11, if they had said Direct X 12 then
Windows <10 users might have had cause to worry.

To me the statement is a very long way to say that they are
making a PC version and not a console version.

[StormILM]

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! :mixed-smiley-027:</bang!>

Bill, that was exactly my thought when I first read that but then again, DTG has yet to unveil very much about the new sim nor their reason for making that particular statement. As we all know, previous decisions/statements are quite often subject to change. Right now, all we can really do is wait until the details fully materialize and hope that all or most of the bases are covered when it does. I'm optimistic.

[IanP]

Er, Bill... You might want to look up a few facts.

Microsoft are now forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10 if they have automatic updates switched on - which most people do. As simmers, many of us think of ourselves as "computer savvy" but even most simmers install "recommended" updates without looking.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/02/microsoft_ups_pressure_win_10_holdouts/

Microsoft stopped "mainstream" support of Windows 7 last month. It's now what is termed a "zombie" operating system, existing without anything but expensive "extended" support.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/lifecycle

Windows 10 has already far surpassed take-up of Windows 8/8.1 (slightly unsurprisingly) so the number of users sticking to 7 or using 8/8.1 is, or very soon will be, far surpassed by those on Windows 10. Also, people have been incorrectly accusing Windows 10 of not running FSX/FSX-SE correctly since the first public releases, in spite of massive evidence to the contrary...

It makes sense to specify Windows 10 - the only MS OS now shipping - rather than what the industry, if not the entire userbase, considers obsolete versions.

Ian P.

[YoYo]

<bang!> B A N G ! That was the sound of DTG shooting themselves in the foot. There's no reason whatever for them to make this a Win10 exclusive title. Win7x64 fully supports DX11 after all! :mixed-smiley-027:</bang!>

I hope its a joke. I don't want W10 and dont like it. :pop4:

[hairyspin]

Pardon me. Windows 7 is still supported, and will be until 2020. Patches, security updates etc are still being produced.

[bazzar]

DTG acquired the franchse for FSX and Flight. There's probably a lot more we are not privvy to and should not be. I for one seriously doubt whether anybody with the business potential to do those things with Microsoft would "shoot themselves in the foot" or proceed on such a path without reference to, negotiation with or consultation with Microsoft.You design for the future, not the past.

All I am hearing right now is comment akin to these historical (hysterical?) observations:

Travelling over 20 mph will result in heart failure.
A computer in every home? Science fiction.
Calculators should be banned in schools.
"FSX will never replace FS9 on my computer, that's a fact."

The same rules apply here as with any addition to our hobby. If you don't like what you see, don't buy it. It's not compulsory.:engel016:

[Adonis]

That's the $50,000 question many want to know. I've heard a number of sources note that every addon from FSX would come to a grinding halt in a 64bit version (supposedly due to gauges and a number of other factors) but I've heard others say that's not necessarily the case or at all. I do take note that FSX and P3D are both 32 bit programs which will run fine on a 64bit OS. I do understand the difference, the addons are built/optimized to run inside a 32bit program but I still believe there is likely a logical (and possibly painless way) to migrate. Maybe I'm wrong on my supposition of the latter but I'm sure this is being looked at and worked on from every conceivable angle. With regards to the question of "why not just go ahead and get P3Dv3"?, my biggest ill (as well as many users) is the VAS limitation and other bugs related to memory, etc. I think DFS is going to pretty much cure all the FSX bugs and open a whole new world of capabilities (if I am reading the tech end of all this correctly). I believe both DFS and P3D will end up sharing a number of common elements and this news (regarding DFS being 64bit from the get-go) seems to parallel the word that P3D will get similar 64bit treatment in due course. I don't think any of us will be disappointed in the end product but I do believe the current FSX user migration will be gradual much as it was for many who changed over from a long use of FS9 over to FSX during the last decade.

Let's make something abundantly clear here: 32bit dll's don't work in 64 bit programs. Either the entire program is 64 or 32bit, you can't mix the two. The 32bit parts need to be rewritten pretty much from scratch to work with a 64bit program.

My only real issue here is if DTG will turn these into DLC fests like they did with their previous stuff and if the program will be optimized specifically for PC, because most games (not to mention Sims) in general are not. Games that are run smoothly with the proper settings for the hardware you have regardless of what happens. For examples of ones that are, look at The Talos Principle and The vanishing of Ethan Carter.

[Tony G]

Why would anyone expect them to release those based on Win7, a legacy operating system? I have win7 for my main gaming system, but run Win10 in my home office, and am seriously considering moving the gaming rig to 10. It's that good.

WinXP was great, but is anyone running it anymore, or expecting developers be focusing on developing for that platform?

[StormILM]

Let's make something abundantly clear here: 32bit dll's don't work in 64 bit programs. Either the entire program is 64 or 32bit, you can't mix the two. The 32bit parts need to be rewritten pretty much from scratch to work with a 64bit program.

You are correct in the sense of a "Direct Drop-In" not being possible but it's still possible to create a workaround to access 32bit dll's from a 64bit platform but obviously any workarounds are likely to be complex/tricky and be more trouble than they are of real benefit. However, it is also very possible to create a method to migrate 32bit to 64bit (it has been done and continues to be done). The real question is, how painless can such a process be made to be or would it be easier to use an SDK template of sorts to rapidly re-write a 64bit version from the ground up? Obviously there's going to be fresh new development from day one as the new sim gets off the ground.

Whatever the end game is, it will certainly put us in a better position than where things were left off from where FS11 development dropped off.

[Jafo]

Current usage stats for OS versions.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Win 7 is ONLY 'legacy' in the minds of the current crop of idiots at Redmond.

People at MS had to throw themselves on their swords re Win 8 ... some 'features' of 10 will see more of them.

It is no surprise that 8 and 8.1 are being surpassed by 10 in usage/adoption....they were both dogs, barely better than Win ME.

10 has funamental issues with its 'management' [by Redmond] - forced updating being the principal issue.

Re 'forced upgrade'...it's not hard to disable and remain happily on 7..... which IS still supported without imminent issue.

[heywooood]

and so the discussion devolves into complaints about which OS will work, backward compatibility, and consoles inclusion or exclusion...

we could wait to hear more details from DTG...

we could accept that time passes in a linear way and that the new must eventually supersede the old - especially in programming and hardware..

we could accept that more people own consoles than PC's now..and for quite a while

Do I want to admit that I have spent too much money on FSX and its addons - no

Am I excited about the possibility that DTG is going to reinvigorate the genre and render all that software obsolete...maybe.

I want a flight sim that not only does what FSX does, but goes 10 times farther, that does it efficiently and smoothly, that does it all on hardware that might be upper end but isn't 10 years away in the future

Can DTG do that? who knows - but if they aren't trying then whats the point?

[IanP]

There's no discussion. Win7 is no longer distributed, no more keys are available than have already shipped and Microsoft ended all but paid-for, pre-arranged, support on 13 January 2015. Over a year ago. Yes, you can still pay them for support - many large organisations do - but it costs. A lot. I know. I saw my old company's bill for WinXP and how quickly they upgraded to 7. :)

As several people have said, you have to develop for the future, not the past. That's one of the mistakes that ACES admitted that they made with FSX, when they assumed clock speeds would keep increasing and thus didn't develop FSX to work effectively on multi-CPU systems, even though the CPU manufacturers were already saying that faster clock speeds would cause irresolvable temperature control issues. Dovetail aren't stupid and have specifically said that they intend to support XBox consoles on all of their titles - Fishing and Train Sim this year, FS in the future "when possible". I haven't heard anything about Playstation, but given their ties with MS, I personally wouldn't see them supporting Sony's boxes. I may well be wrong, especially given that PS4 has sold a lot more than XBone (Microsoft's figures that they accidentally released a few weeks ago. ;) ).

Thing is, FSX still works and DTG have also specifically stated that they are continuing to support FSX:SE, so if you can't use the new titles then you can't use the new titles. You don't lose anything you already have, because they're released.

Ian P.

[rhumbaflappy]

By using DX11, I think Dovetail is allowing for Windows7 systems. They are not guaranteeing Flight simulator will work 100% on older operating systems, but it might. They are guaranteeing it will not work on 32-bit systems or with video cards less than DX11.

It's a good decision from Dovetail's position. Move forward and stop accounting for legacy system support, and save some money.

Dick

[n4gix]

Er, Bill... You might want to look up a few facts.
Ian, I deal only with facts. Many months ago I used a free tool to totally remove the Win10 nagware. Since I develop fulltime for flight sim products, I simply cannot afford to risk my stable production pipeline to accommodate MS's plans for my computer(s).

MS will continue to provide minimally needed patches, security updates, and so forth until 2020, without anyone having to pay for "support."
Many of the tools I use will not work at all under Win10, and replacement programs are not yet available. :pop4:

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

Current usage stats for OS versions.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Win 7 is ONLY 'legacy' in the minds of the current crop of idiots at Redmond.

People at MS had to throw themselves on their swords re Win 8 ... some 'features' of 10 will see more of them.

It is no surprise that 8 and 8.1 are being surpassed by 10 in usage/adoption....they were both dogs, barely better than Win ME.

10 has funamental issues with its 'management' - forced updating being the principal issue.

Re 'forced upgrade'...it's not hard to disable and remain happily on 7..... which IS still supported without imminent issue.


It's amazing how ridiculously you people bash things. It's just an operating system. The only major difference with 8/8.1 (besides the notable optimizations) was the user interface - and that was perfectly learn-able. I don't get why people think it was so horrible and useless.


Many of the tools I use [B]will not work at all under Win10, and replacement programs are not yet available. :pop4:

Really curious what tools you are using that don't work. Over the past 6+ months, I've not had a single incompatible development application yet (or any application, for that matter).

---------------------------

But, let me not get too far off topic. I doubt Dovetail would make their sims Windows 10 exclusive titles, as like it's already been said, Windows 7 is still used by the majority.

[IanP]

Well, I've potentially got some good news for the fans of W7 - it appears (I've only heard this second hand, but from a very reliable source) that the source of the "...for Windows 10..." quote was a press release from Microsoft, not from DTG themselves. They, obviously, have a vested interest in pushing Win10 and ignoring Win7. We'll obviously have to wait for confirmation of this from DTG, but it sounds like they aren't ruling out Win7 support at all - it's just Microsoft trying to hush it up. Don't take that as definite from me, though - wait until DTG say something definitive. It does sound like you'll still get to play, though. ;)

Fr. Bill: Try phoning or e-mailing Microsoft and asking for support on a Windows 7 issue. You'll find out very quickly what "extended support" means, which is "credit card or purchase order number, please?" - also, why did you need to run a tool to remove a very well known \Windows update? I just removed the update and the nag was gone. They re-released it with a new number, so I removed that too. Upgraded to Windows 10 when I wanted, in a controlled way. The only application I've had problems running so far was an original Fallout 4 installed from DVD and that was fixed by installing a patch which is as applicable to Windows 7 and 8/8.1 as it is to 10.

When looking at PC usage figures, don't forget that the majority of PCs are business machines, belonging to companies, who use them for business purposes, not flight simulation. Those PCs will remain Windows 7 until their support staff are absolutely convinced that 10 will work. 8/8.1 had massive problems from a business perspective, which is why most companies bypassed it. 10 also has problems from a business perspective, hence slow take-up by said businesses. Overall PC OS usage figures are NOT a good comparison for home/entertainment software.

Ian P.

[hairyspin]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/60960644.jpg

[StormILM]

We've certainly covered a good bit of ground here, both hopes and concerns and I do not discount any opinions/concerns (and I'm certain that DTG Dev's are paying attention to such concerns). All we can really do now is wait & see what official news comes out in the coming months.

[hschuit]

To put the W7 vs W10 discussion to rest: Steve Hood from DTG just confirmed in their Q&A session that DTG Flight Simulator will also run on W7 - 64bit.

[StormILM]

To put the W7 vs W10 discussion to rest: Steve Hood from DTG just confirmed in their Q&A session that DTG Flight Simulator will also run on W7 - 64bit.

Well, that settles that! :applause:

[n4gix]

Fr. Bill: Try phoning or e-mailing Microsoft and asking for support on a Windows 7 issue. You'll find out very quickly what "extended support" means, which is "credit card or purchase order number, please?" - also, why did you need to run a tool to remove a very well known \Windows update? I just removed the update and the nag was gone.
I have never once had any reason to call Microsoft at all, why would I expect to have some reason in the future? The reason for running the free tool is simple. It instantly removed all of the files and Registry entries with one click. I will never be bothered again until and unless I go looking for Win10 on my own, or buy a new computer. I will likely be dead before that occasion has a chance to arrive. :adoration: