Martinsville antics

[stansdds]

Wow! Crashes, racing against possible rain, racing against nightfall, Matt Kenseth and Joey Logano... Matt got his revenge for Kansas, but he is in deep doo-doo with NASCAR. :dizzy:

[PRB]

Wow. Gordon: The 24 wins! That's good stuff right there. Happy for him. He's always been a class act. That last restart was amazing. I had to turn the sound off and watch from a distance, lolol. Hope he wins the big prize in a couple weeks. Kenseth: It didn't seem to me that Logano intentionally took out the 20 at Kansas, and it's clear the 22 didn't “break check” the 20 at Tallsdega. All of which makes me a bit disappointed with Kenseth today. Patrick: She needs to work on this whole payback thing. She should talk to Kenseth, get a few pointers...

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

http://s11.postimg.org/ylnhv583n/largegordon2.gif

Jeff doin the Icke Daryl Waltrip Shuffle! :mixed-smiley-010:

Congrats Jeff - a great win for the 24!

Kenseth is trash. If it were me I'd park him for the next 4 races. I think NASCAR will be harsh as they should be.

it is really puzzling to me what happened to the 2's right front wheel since the fender was not torn up at all. Why did that wheel break?

-Ed-

[stansdds]

I'm not exactly a Jeff Gordon fan, but I was happy to see him win tonight and have one last chance at the big trophy.

[Panther_99FS]

IMHO,
Jeff Burton was spot-on in his "big picture" analysis. As he stated, this has been going on for a number of years with a number of different drivers. And it will continue to go on unless NASCAR really puts the hammer down instead of pussy-footing around like they've done in the past. Thus today's incident might the catalyst that forces NASCAR to take some hard action - but make no mistake, Kenseth was not the first to do this and will not be the last as long as NASCAR remains lax with this type of activity.

And EasyEd, NASCAR would do well to take a page out of F1 stern practices - a perfect example is where Michael Schumacher was banned for the ENTIRE SEASON from the driver's championship in 1997 due to his on track incident with Jacques Villeneuve.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

First of all Burton is full of it. This has not been going on for years. Has driver retaliation been going on for years - if that is all Burton is thinking then he is clueless. Yes driver retaliation has absolutely been going on for decades but in no way has it been going on for years in this championship format where one bad result and you are probably gone. The background against which driver retaliation occurs has totally changed. This is what you and Burton don't get. In no way with this chase/championship format should driver retaliation be tolerated. Too much is at stake every race. With this chase/championship format every driver instinct to retaliate must be crushed or it is a circus. Joey did nothing wrong at kansas unless Kenseth thinks Joey you won last week let me win now. Kenseth blocked multiple times and Joey rightfully "moved" him. Every race is cutthroat now - no quarter. Like good on Kevin last week. Awareness of circumstance and reacting to situations instantly is the way it is now. The old ways are dead - now to get rid of the trash that accompanied them. Burton better smarten up.

Yes a full season suspension is a good idea although I think it too harsh in this case but I do think a suspension that sits Kenseth for the daytona 500 is appropriate. His sponsors will be pizzed and Gibbs might get a clue. Why didn't F1 sit Schumachers entire team including teammate when the teammate literally parked his car to wait for Schumacher? I will never forget watching that on TV. Why does Vettel have a clause in his contract about team orders? (see your links a couple weeks or so ago). What does it say? How in the he!! do you justify team orders? My point with F1 is simple. I do not believe a driver F1 title is in any way honourable when F1 makes no effort to equalize cars. If F1 is a technology based series in which the constructor is the almighty God - fine - then no drivers title - or - work to equalize the cars and let boys be boys. I don't think you can have both with any honor. Like Montoya said in F1 you just get in the best car and go win the race - oh an I bet the drivers title too. In no way do I see these as compatible. How often in the history of F1 has the driver in the dominant car with an obedient teammate won the title? I haven't even looked but I bet money the mexican grand prix was another Mercedes 1 - 2. I did see qualifying.

So you can preach on F1 toughness about well whatever but until I see no evidence of any team orders I ain't buyin it. There are way too many "coincidental" finishing orders in F1 for me to buy. Like the order of the universe cannot be upset.

The only team order I buy is "don't wreck your teammate" - I'm good with that. I fully recognize the "game" Brad and Joey were playing today about one holding up one line to let the other race ahead and end up with two teammates in the 1 2 positions and I'm not sure what to think except to say except NASCAR needs to sort this out and maybe one driver to another is ok even if teammates and as we saw things can go really wrong with this strategy.

-Ed-

An add OK so I now looked - mercedes 1 2 I'm so shocked.

[Panther_99FS]

So you can preach on F1 toughness about well whatever but until I see no evidence of any team orders I ain't buyin it. .

Didn't think that you would since your method of operations is to slam F1 and Indy whenever you can....And the bottom line is that you're upset because of what happened to "your" driver today....(Guess you missed all the fans cheering)..:mixed-smiley-010:

[Panther_99FS]

Addendum: I would support stern action by NASCAR but the key is that NASCAR must be CONSISTENT! If not, we run the risk of a driver getting seriously injured or killed.

I'll give you, EasyEd the last word - I've said all that I've wanted.

[Panther_99FS]

Wow. Gordon: The 24 wins! That's good stuff right there. Happy for him. He's always been a class act. That last restart was amazing. I had to turn the sound off and watch from a distance, lolol. Hope he wins the big prize in a couple weeks. Kenseth: It didn't seem to me that Logano intentionally took out the 20 at Kansas, and it's clear the 22 didn't “break check” the 20 at Tallsdega. All of which makes me a bit disappointed with Kenseth today.


Some random boolean thoughts...
-If NASCAR is tough on Kenseth
AND
-If Logano doesn't qualify for Homestead

THEN what do you think will happen next year?

[Panther_99FS]

I'm not exactly a Jeff Gordon fan, but I was happy to see him win tonight and have one last chance at the big trophy.

If Gordon wins it all, it would be a career storybook ending....BUT...Keselowski and Harvick ain't out yet....I'd say 'right now', the odds are with Harvick....

[Daveroo]

looked to me that kesolowski turned into kenseth and that was the last starw for matt...and no ed..joey did not need to move matt..everyone blocks..its a part of racing at eny level...moving a guy to get an easy win is just chicken****,i thik matt did what he should have...lagoano took matt ut of the chase the way a child would...like earndhart,wallace and gordon have done many times.....and all three were hated before one was killed...blocking btw...one retired and the other won today....but hes been wrecked many times for his actions...as will joey.....he and brad drive the way they do now..they will be hated..not just by fans but by competitors...and it could very well get em hurt.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Uh no Dave watch the video. The 2 did not turn into the 20 - the 41 is pushing the 2 and gets him loose and into the 2. Brad wanted to let Joey in front of him the 41 had other ideas. Only fair the 41 gets in the wreck too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRrxxXQlBk

The 20 turning the 22 was absolutely deliberate. The 20s tire did not go down. The 22 turning the 20 at kansas was completely fair. You (the 22) do not let a slower car (the 20) blocking you win in this kind of racing - the win is too important. If you can put him away you do. We don't season long points race anymore - that is the old failed way.

-Ed-

[stansdds]

But the reality of what happened and perception by the "victim" at the time of the incident can be two very different things. NASCAR wanted excitement, high pressure, high drama, and now they have it.

[Terry]

In NASCAR what goes around comes around. It's been like that since 49, and should be left alone!

[Roxane-21]

I don't care if his move was bonhead or not, even if he was right or wrong : Kenseth is my hero today since he wrecked the two drivers I wanted to see out of title contention ! :encouragement:

[joe bob]

I am not sure everyone gets the subtleties of on track behavior in NASCAR. Go to any dirt short track on a Friday or Saturday night and you see little dramas play out.

I remember a guy at my home track, quite the gentleman, every Saturday he would show up with his rebuilt car, and every Saturday he would drag the wreckage home to start again.
He never said a word and he never seemed angry. He was just a very patent nice guy with good manners. That is why he was wrecked every week. Every guy who came up on him saw him as an obstacle to victory, not as a competitor.

At some point a guy has to say enough is enough. When another guy all hyped up on adrenaline comes up behind you, you want him to think twice about how he races you.
That has always been part of NASCAR from it's very beginnings an at it's lowest levels. NASCAR embraces the rubbin' is racin' reputation.

Like many things in racing it is a balance though. Take it too far and they step in. Make it dangerous and rules will be made. NASCAR would never want to totally be free of this type of drama though, it is arguably it's bread and butter .
One guy knows the potential price he will pay for making a rough pass, the other guy knows the price he will pay for the payback. Both decide if it is worth the cost.

If you are going to get payback then a short flat track like Martinsville is the place to do it.

The original Logano pass is debatable, but the interview I saw him do afterwards did bring to mind a Kurt Bush type need to be brought back down to earth a notch. Matt gets my thumbs up.

[Panther_99FS]

Patrick: She needs to work on this whole payback thing. She should talk to Kenseth, get a few pointers...


So PRB, let me ask you this. IF Kenseth gets a stern punishment, should Danica get a lighter punishment?



After the caution was thrown, Patrick sped down the front straightaway and drove hard into the back of Gilliland's Ford. The contact heavily damaged the hood, nose and right front fender of Patrick's car.


-> http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/danica-patrick-david-gilliland-martinsville-speedway-wreck-feud-sprint-cup-stewart-haas-110115

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Yeah well lots of people like dirty drivers - like Kenseth, Edwards and the like.

Logano and Keselkowski are two of the faces of NASCAR of the future - race real hard give no quarter in "playoff" races - do not get obviously emotional - consummate professionals - like Jimmie Johnson another great in the same mold. Harvick gets it and and is capable of it - Earnhardt would have thrived even more today than in his era - drivers that do it old style will and should be gone. The days of doin it like Allison and Yarborough at the 500 in 79 while cute and quaint are dead and should be. People who admire that kind of man to man are well just old fogeys.

Larry Mac gets it and wants big penalty on Kenseth.


After rightfully praising Jeff...

Now on the flip side of things, well I was pretty shocked and surprised with what I saw Sunday with the continuing Matt Kenseth (http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/matt-kenseth-driver) and Joey Logano (http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/joey-logano-driver) feud. I was speechless when I saw it happened. In my mind I was going, 'did I just see what I thought I saw happen?'


Let's face it; Matt purposely took that kid out. It is blatant as the day is long. Now I've had a little time to reflect. Let me state once again this week that I am a huge Matt Kenseth and Joey Logano fan. I have to take my fan hat off and put my TV analyst hat on. To me, what Matt did was so classless, so far across the line and so far across the line of 'Boys, have at it' that it's unbelievable.


I simply can't believe a former champion and veteran of our sport did that Sunday. I don't want to hear about all the past issues. This was a driver that was riding around nine or 10 laps down, slow around the track waiting for his chance to take Joey out. When the chance came he did exactly that, he took the kid out. I'll tell it to you straight, if NASCAR doesn't drop the hammer on Matt Kenseth well shame on them.


Let's be clear, I'm not talking about a fine. A monetary fine isn't going to send any kind of message. Who cares about points now? He's not in the championship hunt any longer, so what if he drops from eighth to 10th. I swear to you if I hear the word probation, I'm going to find the nearest trash can and throw up. Probation means nothing in our sport. It's a hollow word used in our sport.

The only way you keep your credibility as the sanctioning body is to park his butt. Even though I think it should be long, I'd be okay if they keep him out of one race. It's pretty darn close to what happened a few years ago with Kyle Busch (http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/kyle-busch-driver) and Ron Hornaday in the Camping World Truck series race and we know what they did that weekend.

I know NASCAR like me is okay with two guys beating and banging on each other. I worked for Dale Earnhardt Sr., who would wreck his Mom if he had to just to finish 10th, but what Matt Kenseth did Sunday to Joey Logano at Martinsville isn't racing.

I think the entire sports world is watching to see how NASCAR is going to handle this and what they are going to do with Matt Kenseth.

From Fox sports

Nascar needs to get this one right.

-Ed-

[PRB]

So PRB, let me ask you this. IF Kenseth gets a stern punishment, should Danica get a lighter punishment?

Well, she didn't hit him as hard, so I suppose so. It was a bit of a flippant remark, as is this one. Kyle Busch made a comment that the degree to which you can get away with that sort of thing has a lot to do with the name on the side of the cars involved. Maybe he's right. The radio guy on the Race Hub show made an interesting observation. He said he was in the stand when the crash happened, and everyone was cheering for Kenseth, but the next day on his radio show, everyone was after Kenseth's head, and he wondered "how does that work?" I think beer has a little to do with it... I agree with those who think NASCAR officials are secretly loving this. They wanted manufactured drama, and they found a way to manufacture it.

[Panther_99FS]

Well, she didn't hit him as hard, so I suppose so.

Well, she definitely didn't deny it on the radio:



Patrick responded: "Damn it, I was meaning to take him out. I'll have to next time."


-> http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm#20151102c

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

A couple comments...

PRB I don't buy that this is manufactured drama. It is real - these guys genuinely want to win championships not drama contests. NASCAR has changed the rules to fit the times - rightfully so. You can't make people respect the past or the old ways. People realize they are just - well - old. The drivers who have the best physical, emotional and rational makeup to fit the times will be the winners. This is the way it is - the old do not rule the day.

Now about Danica - she is an amateur at this revenge game and if she is smart and I think she is she will give it up. Losers like Gilliland who seem to basically think Danica has no place in NASCAR are just - well - losers. She has earned her way getting sponsorships and all and is not taking a seat from a more talented racer. NASCAR should sanction her but her transgression is nowhere near the magnitude of the Kenseth move. Let boys be boys for 26 races and among out of contention racers is maybe fine - but not ever under caution and not if you are in the chase. That is something to think about. The basic idea believed by some that zero tolerance is the way forward are really out of touch.

-Ed-

[Daveroo]

i think its all bs,if any one thinks that the driver of the 2 and 22 are innocent ,good drivers,yer delusional,remember who started the crap between bad brad and carl?..yup brad did,who ended it?..carl did.....

and the wet bread fella in the 22?..anyone remember why denny hamlin ended up head on into a wall breaking his back?...yup lil wetbread dumped him....why??..he was mad because denny raced him hard prior and he got revenge...i dont care if it was in the chase or not..wetbread...soggyass?...took matt out of the chase himself..so he was fair game..ive already quit the fan counsel and i wont watch or support nascar in anyway from now on...ive had it...nascar used to talk about pairity and fairness....i havent heard anything about that anymore...now its just we'll do as we want ,when we want,even if it favors one driver over another or not...its bs...

[Daveroo]

sorry ed,,,but when the 2 spins the 20,,those two cars were alone in racing terms,,,,bad brad could have esily backed off a bit,but did he?..no he wanted to wreak the 20,so the 22 could win....ed?..i once said i wouldnt argue with you any more just because of your fire fighting back ground...but dude...you have vision of only what you want to se...watch the video in slow motion...yeah the 2 was pushing the 22,the 41 touches him...but he gets into the 20,,,and doesnt lift at all..just spins the 20.....bad brad and milktoast will will be brought to thier knees in future...they will continue to make emimies and will continue to be wrecked..





Hey All,

Uh no Dave watch the video. The 2 did not turn into the 20 - the 41 is pushing the 2 and gets him loose and into the 2. Brad wanted to let Joey in front of him the 41 had other ideas. Only fair the 41 gets in the wreck too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRrxxXQlBk

The 20 turning the 22 was absolutely deliberate. The 20s tire did not go down. The 22 turning the 20 at kansas was completely fair. You (the 22) do not let a slower car (the 20) blocking you win in this kind of racing - the win is too important. If you can put him away you do. We don't season long points race anymore - that is the old failed way.

-Ed-

[eddie]

Matt gets suspended for 2 races and Danica gets fined $50K for her antics.

[Panther_99FS]

Matt gets suspended for 2 races and Danica gets fined $50K for her antics.

Consistently inconsistent!
Pretty much tells me that if you're outta The Chase, you've got free reign to wreck any non-contender

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Nothing inconsistent.

Circumstance decides - not the action itself

Brian France gets that.

You do realize that with this chase format drivers have to be smart and constantly aware of where they are and where their competition is.

Take JLo at Kansas - already punched his ticket to the next round. Going for a win but I have no doubt knew that with kenseth blocking he could use the bumper just like Dale earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, jAWS and others. He can't hurt himself as he is into the next round but maybe one of the other fast cars in the chase won't advance. Like yeah do it! Now kenseth he's dumb holding up a faster car that could put him out. See? Then Kenseth well he's dumb and puts JLo in a wall and gets suspended and will be watched. And JLo has two races to make it anyway - with the Penske cars maybe he will - I'd not bet against it. An well Kenseth he ain't doin that again not this year or next.

You see the driver code - I race you like you race me has to knuckle under to the France chase rules - the driver code does not and should not rule. You can if your smart think through all kinds a strategies and such - Penske I bet has - as has the Harv. It's all about getting to the next round. And these drivers have been warned at every drivers meeting but have they really thought through all the implications?

And that is the point the penalties for Danica and Matt were and should be very different - as stated by Brian France - and as in life it is all about the circumstances. There is no black and white - it is all 50 shades of grey.

I luv it - racing should be strategy first. I always go for smart drivers.

Otherwise just get in the fastest car and go win the race - boring. Lets get excited about who gets 10th!! What racing series is that boring?

So does this mean there are two classes of drivers on the track for the last 10 races of the year in NASCAR? Yes absolutely! But if racing hard for a win a "second class" car can use the bumper or lean - that is fair and I've no doubt Brian France supports that. So again situational awareness is everything. - as it should be. Who is the car behind or beside you and where do they stand in the chase or the race determines your action - better be smart not like Kenseth.

The old ways are dead - get over it.

-Ed-

[joe bob]

Brian France is going to listen to ratings, Brian France gets business.
What you call the old ways are still NASCAR's bread and butter.
For every Iceman like Labonte or Martin, there is the Earnhardt or Stewart.
Both have their place and both are great racers.
If NASCAR were nothing but Jimmy Johnsons roboting their way to victory then NASCAR wouldn't have any ratings in days gone by or next weekend.
Good sports is about the passion, you know "The thrill of victory the agony of defeat"
No one is looking for headlines like "Johnson again really thankful for crews efforts, second only to his appreciation of his sponsors"

Martinville antics are going to be a part of NASCAR as long as there is a NASCAR. They will punish it to keep it under control but they would never want to stifle it.
Look what we are still talking about mid week. Bad boys, fines, mediocre mid-pack drivers only getting 50k fines. It is all fodder for the hype machine that NASCAR thrives on
If you think that is a thing of the past then I have doubts you have been to a race. (or you just have to have the last word :untroubled:)

[Panther_99FS]

If you think that is a thing of the past then I have doubts you have been to a race. (or you just have to have the last word :untroubled:)

I can honestly say that I've never been to a race - but with Texas Motor Speedway "just up the street" from me, a truck race is on my "to do" list....:mixed-smiley-010:

[Panther_99FS]

Oh I forgot...
I can't wait for Gilliland to get payback on Danica since he now knows he won't get a harsh punishment...In fact, unlike Kenseth but just like Danica, Gilliland can state his actions on the radio, execute them, and still escape harsh punishment...Just like Danica...:mixed-smiley-010:

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Did you even watch the race? Danica hardly touched Gilliland and then hurried to the garage not trying to catch Gilliland. You don't get huge penalties for this or talk. Go watch the video. Heck here watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t9XbEdaZBY

And you consider this to be as serious as what Kenseth did? Zero tolerance is dumb and will never be enforced nor should it. It is all about the circumstance.

-Ed-

[Panther_99FS]

Now this guy is SPOT ON!!!

Opinion: NASCAR should've given same penalty to Danica, Kenseth


-> http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/matt-kenseth-appeal-penalty-joe-gibbs-racing-chase-for-the-sprint-cup-danica-patrick-110515



Just make sure those different rules apply equally to all 43 drivers, or the real-world consequences could be a lot uglier than what we saw at Martinsville.

[Panther_99FS]

Another commentator that sees the bigger picture...
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/matt-kenseth-joey-logano-martinsville-wreck-penalty-danica-patrick-david-gilliland-110215

[PRB]

Now this guy is SPOT ON!!!


-> http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/matt-kenseth-appeal-penalty-joe-gibbs-racing-chase-for-the-sprint-cup-danica-patrick-110515



Maybe NASCAR is looking at it like criminal sentencing guidelines. For example, you wouldn't go to San Quentin for ten years for stealing a candy bar from a 7/11. You get 10 years for stealing a million dollars from the bank on Main Street. Even though both crimes are acts of deliberate theft. In the same way, what Kenseth did was "worse" then what Patrick did. Heck, she actually failed to wreck the 38 car, only herself! Kenseth, after his appeal was turned down, said he didn't know there was a rule that said he couldn't pile drive the 22 car into the wall at 150 MPH, so how could be punished? Brilliant! But it seems to me that these two incidents, Danica's and Kenseth's are "beyond" the rule book. When they each decided to wreck the object of their displeasure, they were no longer racing. Is there a rule in the baseball rule book that says the pitcher can't slug the umpire in the face because he made him angry?

O.T. Remember last year when Kenseth tackled Keslowski after a race, claiming he was so angry because BK hit him after he had unbuckled his seat belts? After Well, after last week can we agree that was a BS excuse? Just say he p**sed you off and you wanted to kick his butt. We all get that. Why make up a story about being all concerned about safety? To quote Kenseth himself, when talking about Logano, I used to be a fan...

[Panther_99FS]

PRB,
Point taken but what if in Danica's mele, say Harvick got taken out by either Gilliand or Danica - then what?

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Like anatomy everybody has an opinion. I agree with the idea that in the case of NASCAR the punishment must fit the circumstances not just the crime. We never want NASCAR to be open wheel with fenders. The whole idea of NASCAR racing in essence being about the car and the driver pressuring the car in front into a mistake would be boring boring boring - like F1 is the vast majority of the time. In every drivers meeting the drivers are warned about all of this on track retaliation and any back of the pack antics to help teammates and if the Danica/Gilliland continues to escalate NASCAR will step in harder. NASCAR is watching and has I'm certain thought through the vast vast majority of scenarios. And yes when there are 43 cars on the track any driver can be a victim of circumstance - like poor Denny when Kevin had that incredibly unfortunate accident at talledega to advance.

-Ed-

[PRB]

PRB,
Point taken but what if in Danica's mele, say Harvick got taken out by either Gilliand or Danica - then what?

Then her penalty would be greater, and she'd have to fight Harvick... :biggrin-new: I'm not saying drivers should not be penalized for these particular shenanigans, I'm just saying the penalties don't have to be, and should not, be consistent.

[Panther_99FS]

Then her penalty would be greater, and she'd have to fight Harvick... :biggrin-new: I'm not saying drivers should not be penalized for these particular shenanigans, I'm just saying the penalties don't have to be, and should not, be consistent.

LoL!
Well, the unequal-ruling tells me and apparently, I'm not the only one (see my previous posts) that "boys have it" still applies if you're a back marker and not in the chase....

Imagine if the NFL only penalized late hits on teams whose opponents had playoff chances...

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

NASCAR got it right refusing the 20 appeal. Hopefully they told him do it again and you get suspended for a month.

Danica's treatment was just right.

-Ed-