Volkswagen

[Rudyjo]

Does anyone else here own a VW diesel that will included in the recall?
I just bought a 2015 VW TDI Sportwagen 3 weeks ago.
This doesn't look good for VW. Reported today that the recall may now reach 11 million cars around the world.

[Terry]

They may pack up their toys and go home without paying the outrageous penalty. I sure would not blame them.

[lownslo]

The penalty was made outrageous to keep manufacturers from doing something so stupid and dishonest. Won't do them any good if they pack up and go home... there will be plenty of prosecutions, fines, and penalties throughout the world. Starting with their own turf in Germany. My only question is will the Feds prosecute Winterkorn? These sleazy CEO's just seem to be able to do whatever they want. Tired of it all!

Greg

[ViperPilot2]

Cutting corners to gain revenue will come back to bite every time, whether it's VW, Takata (air bags), or GM. In the end, it's always the consumer left holding the bag, while Corporate justifies their actions with weak apologies and doubletalk.

50 million cars out there subject to one Recall or another... most of them on the road, and all built like crap.

Alan :banghead: :dizzy:

[Allen]

I hate to go there but I'm going there.

When this is all said and done VW's fines cheating on test are going to be more than GM's cover up of the ignition flaw that KILLED people.

What the :censored: is wrong with this country?!?!

[lownslo]

When this is all said and done VW's fines cheating on test are going to be more than GM's cover up of the ignition flaw that KILLED people.

Ahh, but VW isn't an American Blue Chip with strong union ties, and a company the current administration naturally wishes to see succeed (based upon that very sweet U.S. structured 2009 bankruptcy).

Greg

[huub vink]

So far I have never had a car which was capable to meet the fuel consumption which was mentioned in advertising. I have driven several brands, does this mean they were all lying? And should they all pay a penalty?
Or are car manufacturers allowed to be dishonest about consumption figures, but not about environmental related figures?

BTW I am driving my first Volkswagen, best car I have ever owned so far :encouragement:

And to be honest, I bought it as I thought it was a nice and reliable car and not because I though driving a car was good fro the environment *big wink*

Cheers,
Huub

PS On my country in general, a car salesman isn't really regarded the most reliable person.

[Allen]

Ahh, but VW isn't an American Blue Chip with strong union ties, and a company the current administration naturally wishes to see succeed (based upon that very sweet U.S. structured 2009 bankruptcy).

Greg

Lets not forget that the engine for the bailout was started by the past administration.


So far I have never had a car which was capable to meet the fuel consumption which was mentioned in advertising. I have driven several brands, does this mean they were all lying? And should they all pay a penalty?
Or are car manufacturers allowed to be dishonest about consumption figures, but not about environmental related figures?

BTW I am driving my first Volkswagen, best car I have ever owned so far :encouragement:

And to be honest, I bought it as I thought it was a nice and reliable car and not because I though driving a car was good fro the environment *big wink*

Cheers,
Huub

In the US they aren't supposed to lie but the EPA testing is so poor that it seems no on gets what MPG that is listed. They put a car on a treadmill and test it. I don't know but I'm going to guess that they use 100% gasoline that will give a better MPG. The 90% gasoline / 10% ethanol blend will cut MPG down by 4% if not more.

[Rudyjo]

This is about the eighth new car I have owned and like it was mentioned here, they never get the mileage indicated on the window sticker.
This VW diesel is no way close to what it "should" get.
The window sticker says "35 city---43 hwy".
I do a 9 mile trip each morning ,city driving only, it gets 38 mpg.
I have done 5 highway trips of between 30 and 175 miles, it gets between 52 and 57.5 mpg.
And it doesn't even have 1000 miles on it. The break in period is around 10,000 miles, and they usually get better mileage after the break-in period.

This is what the majority of complaints are at the VW TDI forums.... in order to now meet the EPA standards, if it can be done, the power, mileage and reliability will more likely be cut way down from what it is now.
I just paid close to $25,000 for this car 3 weeks ago, and now it looks like I will be told that the power it has will be reduced, the reliability will be reduced and the mileage will likely go down by 25-30%.
That is not the agreement I had when I bought this car.
There is some talk that if VW has to reduce all these figures in order to meet the EPA standards, then they may be forced to buy all these cars back. On top of that, they could be fined up to $37,500 for each Diesel car sold in the U.S. going back to 2009. That alone would run close to 18 billion dollars.
It is going to take many years for VW to recover from this.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

No No Not Herbie the Luv Bug!!! Say it isn't so...

Hey I drive a wrangler jeep. I burn a quart of oil every 1500 miles like many Mexico built engines. I get crappy fuel economy 17 to maybe 22 mpg. But it's a jeep and it suits me - I'll live with it. This after 11 years with the best built vehicle I've ever driven next to an 84 Honda Accord. That was an Xterra never burned a drop of oil and was super stout. Fuel economy was about the same as my jeep.

I certainly feel for those who drive Vdubs - it ain't right. Wonder how widespread this is.

-Ed-

[Allen]

This is about the eighth new car I have owned and like it was mentioned here, they never get the mileage indicated on the window sticker.
This VW diesel is no way close to what it "should" get.
The window sticker says "35 city---43 hwy".
I do a 9 mile trip each morning ,city driving only, it gets 38 mpg.
I have done 5 highway trips of between 30 and 175 miles, it gets between 52 and 57.5 mpg.
And it doesn't even have 1000 miles on it. The break in period is around 10,000 miles, and they usually get better mileage after the break-in period.

This is what the majority of complaints are at the VW TDI forums.... in order to now meet the EPA standards, if it can be done, the power, mileage and reliability will more likely be cut way down from what it is now.
I just paid close to $25,000 for this car 3 weeks ago, and now it looks like I will be told that the power it has will be reduced, the reliability will be reduced and the mileage will likely go down by 25-30%.
That is not the agreement I had when I bought this car.
There is some talk that if VW has to reduce all these figures in order to meet the EPA standards, then they may be forced to buy all these cars back. On top of that, they could be fined up to $37,500 for each Diesel car sold in the U.S. going back to 2009. That alone would run close to 18 billion dollars.
It is going to take many years for VW to recover from this.

I hope they are hammered hard but we know if GM can kill people and get slapped on the hand so the only hammer VW will get hit with is this one.

29336

and find people like you self will be left with junk car and maybe after the class action lawsuit is done a free oil change coupon.

[lownslo]

...and find people like you self will be left with junk car and maybe after the class action lawsuit is done a free oil change coupon.

+This! Sorry Rudyjo, but you're just part of the middle class of consumers... we exist so the rich can get richer.

Greg

Edit: The first lawsuit has been filed in the U.S. Hopefully more to come... we all know no government will do the right thing.

[gman5250]

Let the bailouts begin.

VW stock took a 20% hit on the news and with the prospect of the massive cost of the recall, fines, legal costs, loss of faith and the state of the Euro, VW may be on the ropes.

Bailouts may stave the inevitable, but what is more important here is the fact that VW was operating a fraud over a period of years by utilizing an algorithm to intentionally cheat the technology put in place to ensure emissions standards.

The recent conviction and 28 year sentencing of Peanut Butter Corporation of Americas former CEO, Stewart Parnell, shows that corporate officers are not immune from felony prosecution. Let's hope this trend continues...its a long waiting list. Anyone remember Bayer/Factor 8...where are those guys now?

For years auto makers have evaded harsh consequences when knowingly producing faulty or dangerous products. The Pinto gas tank was a known design flaw but Ford had run the actuarial tables and realized that paying legal settlements for a few dead customers was cheaper than fixing the flaw.

The recent video of the "Self Parking" Volvo running over the reporters sent to cover it's debut illustrates how technology can be flawed, even if it was not intentionally designed to lie although the car was allegedly later overheard saying " I frickin' hate dudes in pink".

https://youtu.be/_8nnhUCtcO8

If this car goes to production, liability for passenger and pedestrian safety is directly attributable to the designers and corporate officers of that company.

When criminals in the corporate world start looking at hard time rather than fines less than their yearly bonus, they may look more closely at their own personal consequences rather than annual reports.

Of course a more likely scenario may go something like this.

VW gets a massive infusion of quantitative caiptal courtesy of the EU "community", VW workers are replaced with "affordable labor" while watching their pensions go down the austerity rathole, certain corporate executives resign after skimming off most of the bail out money in the form of gozillion dollar bonuses and disappear quietly to a private Greek island that they recently picked up on the cheap, suffer a conveniently timed Myocardial Infarction...and live happily ever after.

IMHO...let the beatings begin. :rocket:


Side note...the HD gets 50 MPG, the wife's Honda Element 30+
I haven't driven my Silverado in almost two years.

[jbtate]

Been trying to get my 1985 Volkswagen Golf GTI repaired since late May. I've always given it premium gas at the pump. Current mechanic says parts are on order.

[CG_1976]

I dont have any issue's with my 67 VW Bug nor my newer one unless I accidentally drive into CA lol which never happens. It breaks down call the VW graveyard in Tampa, cheap parts. Other then that my Canadian Built Bombardier Spyder F3 gets 45 mpg.

[wombat666]

I stand to be corrected but I gather this started in California, if so, is the EPA still State or has it become Federal?
California had the most draconian EPA regulations (IIRC) around 1980 or so, friends of mine were involved in developing metal coatings to meet proposed Victorian EPA legislation which was combined with the Californian regulations.
Almost impossible!.

Back to VW, if this issue develops in a full on inquiry, it will probably include Audi, Skoda and SEAT, as the smaller Audi's (S3) are a VW Golf in a party frock, while Skoda and SEAT built on assorted VW platforms.
The latest reliable figures are not good, VW shares are down 30% and do not appear to be moving anywhere but further down.
And I owned a Golf TDI a few years ago, one the best small hot hatches I've driven.

As for the fuel consumption figures mentioned here (why?), if you are capable of driving a vehicle correctly a manufacturer's claims are easily met.

:kilroy:

[Daveroo]

arroding to the local news..the CEO has stepped down.

[Ickie]

1 in 7 from Germany are affected by this industry and a $20 BILLION loss will sure hurt the people, they need to jail and strip them of all their money, all who knew of this crime. To save faith.
It wasn't a small amount but 40 times bigger then allotted amount of pollution these cars emitted.

[rhumbaflappy]

I just paid close to $25,000 for this car 3 weeks ago, and now it looks like I will be told that the power it has will be reduced, the reliability will be reduced and the mileage will likely go down by 25-30%.
That is not the agreement I had when I bought this car.


This is a software issue. You'll probably get a notice to go to the dealer for a new rom chip, or a re-programming. If you don't take the car in, it won't get fixed, and then you'll still get the great MPG... The 'fix' may actually cause more net pollution than leaving it alone. Less MPG means more trips to the pump, burning more fuel, which causes more net pollution.

Dick

[Allen]

This is a software issue. You'll probably get a notice to go to the dealer for a new rom chip, or a re-programming. If you don't take the car in, it won't get fixed, and then you'll still get the great MPG... The 'fix' may actually cause more net pollution than leaving it alone. Less MPG means more trips to the pump, burning more fuel, which causes more net pollution.

Dick

That is what I was think rhumbaflappy but thats the EPA and CARB for ya.

[gman5250]

This is a software issue. You'll probably get a notice to go to the dealer for a new rom chip, or a re-programming. If you don't take the car in, it won't get fixed, and then you'll still get the great MPG... The 'fix' may actually cause more net pollution than leaving it alone. Less MPG means more trips to the pump, burning more fuel, which causes more net pollution.

Dick

At first this looks like the case, but then I read this article.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/09/22/the-tech-behind-how-volkswagen-tricked-emissions-tests/

The fact that the software anticipates certain tests raises the question of what happens after the cheater software is neutered. The variance in performance and emissions is dramatic when the cheater is disabled.

How will the engine(s) respond when actually being required to meet the various requirements without the cheater. I'd wager that they are not going to be able to pull it off without major mechanical mods like replacing EFI injectors or solenoids which can translate into big problems with exhaust/cat converters.

Bear in mind that these engines were very likely designed entirely around the cheat. I see big problems.

I wonder how the newly chipped vehicles would read out on a real world dyno. :pop4:

Interesting stuff to ponder...and watch as things develop.

[Naismith]

Between VW, the recent Toyota scandal and GM trying to kill us all, who can we trust...... I'll get the bus .... who builds that? :encouragement:

[Ickie]

I sure am glad I have a 3/4 ton dodge van 1978 model with zero pollution stuff on it from the factory with a 4 barrell carb. humm gets 12 MPG,

and I also have a dodge v6 Dakota 1999 full of sensors on it and all the other stuff and it gets 13 MPG

looks like newer isn't better

[KellyB]

arroding to the local news..the CEO has stepped down.

Well, there. that's better.
I'm betting he gets off with a slap on the wrist, when actually, he should be stripped down to nothing and sent to jail for awhile.

[rhumbaflappy]

There's not a lot of difference between your average corporate official, a politician, and a sociopath. None of them feel too bad about screwing up the rest of us.

Dick

[Blackbird686]

I had a 1964 Beetle, very dependable, always started, even in sub zero temps. A buddy of mine has a 2006 VW Passat and he says it's one of the best autos that he's ever had. Wonder what will become of the gas powered VW's? Are they under the same scrutiny as the TDI diesel models? The whole bit could up like the original VW Beetle which is still available in Mexico, I believe. So you want a VW...? you have to go south of the Border to get one? If this incident was deliberate on VW's part then I agree with KellyB... the fullest extent of the law should apply. I don't see how it could have happened by accident.

If you want to talk mileage figures, I have a 1992 Toyota 4X4 pickup, it had 8 miles on it when I bought it new. It now has 173,000 and still runs like a top. It was rated at 18MPG in town and 25MPG on highway on the sticker, which I still have. The truck gets an impressive 23MPG in town, and about 30MPG highway. It has the 2.4 liter "22R" fuel injected 4 cylinder engine. So as far as what the sticker says and what the car gets in terms of MPG, my sticker fell short of the actual figures and the inaccuracy was in my favor. Regular tune-ups, premium fuel, scheduled oil changes and maintenance all play a part.


BB686:US-flag:

[Rudyjo]

So far this is confined to Diesel engines made between 2009 and 2015. The recall will also be issued on one smaller model of Audi, which is owned by VW.
By the way,....VW also owns Porsche, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborgini and a few other companies that make trucks.

The CEO quit today. He had not been in power for that long, just as Mary Barra at GM was new to the job when the ignition switch scandal started. Makes me wonder if the people before them knew trouble was coming and someone else is "Elected" to be the fall guy .

I'll believe that there is a crackdown on CEO fraud when someone like Jamie Damon of Chase Bank is put on trial.

Some owners are saying they will not have the software redone and enjoy the cars as they are. The problem is that the VIN numbers will be given to the State DMV's. If you are required to have an emission test before registering your vehicle every year or so, you will not be able to register it. You may have a car that gets great mileage, but it will just be a matter of time before you get pulled over for expired tags.

The amount of excess NOx emissions is UP to 40%, not a set 40% figure. One thing that may help VW is these cars are required to run on Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, the testing agency now admits that they used only low sulfur fuel.
It is a great car, like most German engineered cars, they are well put together even though they are assembled in Mexico. The engines, transmissions and most of the heavy duty equipment are made in Germany.

[SPman]

We've got a Hyundai i30CW diesel, so, hopefully, this "problem" hasn't spread to other car firms....although, Hyundai has a lot of ex VW employees working on their designs these days...........:dizzy:

[wombat666]

“It is an outrage that VW would take advantage of its consumers by purposely deceiving them on their mileage on diesel vehicles. . . . There ought to be some prosecutions, and corporate executives that knew this and have done it ought to be going to jail,” Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said in a speech on the Senate floor Tuesday, citing the repeated failures of automakers. “And I lay this not only on the corporate culture, I lay it at the feet of the U.S. regulatory agencies who ought to be doing their job, ought to be doing it in a forceful way.”

Interesting attitude here, the primary angst directed at VW is concerned with emission deceptions, not fuel consumption figures.
And really, emission levels are of great concern to any level headed citizen.
The 'P' in EPA stands for 'Pollution'.
As for the 'Toyota Airbag Problem', with only two suppliers to choose from they were SOL and picked the wrong one.
Once the knee jerk reaction calms down the investigations might be more than interesting, for example, the EPA 'testing' seems to have used the wrong grade of diesel......................:banghead:

[Blackbird686]

The "particulate' in diesel emissions does not stay airborne, like the gasses from nitrous oxides and CO emissions from gasoline powered engines. It settles to the ground eventually. So I recon that one could call it "ground pollution"? (For lack of better reasoning).

In Colorado, USA for example, State emissions testing is done on gasoline powered vehicles every two years, while diesel powered vehicles have to be tested every year. The ratio of gasoline powered vehicles to diesel powered vehicles is about 1 1/2 to one, considering that a lot of folks are keeping their older cars running. To me, the major pollution issue would be with gasoline powered engines since the emissions from those remain in the air we breathe.

Still, it'll be interesting to see who is found guilty, and takes the major hit from this latest fiasco.

BB686:US-flag:

[Ickie]

Just a few minutes ago I seen a VW commercial on TV offering $1200 off a new VW, lol

[gman5250]

Just a few minutes ago I seen a VW commercial on TV offering $1200 off a new VW, lol

It that weren't so funny in a pathetic corporate marketing kind of way I'd have a good laugh over that one.

Considering the track record of the EPA in the last few years, I'm not entirely confident that they will be of much help, but one can always hope.

[Willy]

Years ago, I had a VW Rabbit Diesel. VW advertised mileage in the high 30s. I got over 50 on the highway. Tough and reliable car that I drove for years until it got totaled in a wreck. And when it did have problems, it was pretty easy to fix (former diesel mechanic). A couple of years ago, I looked at a new Beetle diesel. No way. Wouldn't have the darn thing.

For the VW owners, I hope VW's recall works out better than any Chrysler ones I've had to deal with. I've still got an outstanding one on my van that they say the part is available, but no one can seem to get one. Reminds me of Fiats back 30 years ago last time they were in this country. Even the dealers couldn't parts, but while you're here, let's trade in your broken one for another one. At your cost of course.

[b52bob]

Corporate mindset...
if it's cheaper to settle law suits than spend the money to fix it, let it ride.

Even the FAA does it when they come across commercial airliner problems.

The pursuit of the almighty dollar!

[Ferry_vO]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Ferror/12027591_535771789914321_3993903993994627840_n_zps dfozflya.jpg~original (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/Ferror/media/12027591_535771789914321_3993903993994627840_n_zps dfozflya.jpg.html)

No car gets the mileage according to the factory, as the test designed to measure CO2 emissions (Which is then calculated back to fuel consumption.) is completely ridiculous. There is a lot of running at 70 kmh, and very little simulated urban or highway traffic. The acceleration from 0-100 kmh lasts 70 (!) seconds in the test, almost a minute more than any normal family car will do these days. And since fuel consumption is a large selling factor these days (Even with the current low oil price I still pay $6.50 USD for a gallon.) I'm not surprised manufacturers try to cheat the test. And I use the plural because I'm sure others will have done the same as Volkswagen has.

Right now in Europe there are a lot of smaller cars (VW Rabbit/Ford Focus-sized and smaller) that have relatively small turbocharged engines that (In the standard test!) get great mileage. Why? Because during the test the turbo is hardly used. Once you drive a car like that in daily traffic you will use the extra turbo power, and the fuel consumption shoots up.

[wombat666]

I expect we might get some facts once the media frenzy eases off.
And I'm inclined to look at Europe for those facts, not California.
FWIW, my daily driver is a Volvo, a C30 2L Turbo Diesel, and it gets good fuel consumption despite my driving style.
:redfire:
Speed limit??? What speed limit???

[Naismith]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Ferror/12027591_535771789914321_3993903993994627840_n_zps dfozflya.jpg~original (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/Ferror/media/12027591_535771789914321_3993903993994627840_n_zps dfozflya.jpg.html)

.

Don't know about VW but that (hilarious) pic reminded me of a Peugeot I once owned in the UK - awful car.

[gman5250]

Utt Ohhhhh.....looks lilke BMW may be sucked into the vortex........

[wombat666]

Utt Ohhhhh.....looks lilke BMW may be sucked into the vortex........

How so?
Completely unrelated company with different target markets.
Can't find anything so far on the net.

Edit: Apparently a single BMW 'SUV' has recorded some very high emission levels, this while being driven off road and up a steep incline...................:banghead:

[Willy]

Things have changed for diesel car owners here in the States from what it was when I owned my Rabbit back in the 80s and early 90s. Back then, diesel was cheaper than gas and "what emission controls?" on the cars. Yeah, they were noisy, hardy to start (not so much the Rabbit) and most people found the exhaust "stinky". And diesel fuel was a bit harder to find these days from what it is today. I usually refueled at truck stops and got strange looks from the truck drivers with my little black car at one of "their" pumps.