A question for the Dutch guys/Navy people!

[JensOle]

Hi,

I'm removing some dust from my old R81 Karel Doorman carrier repaint for making a ship for the Flyingstations Sea Fury and the great Dutch repaints by Huub Vink. After seeing some pictures on the net of the HO4S helicopters the MLD started to use from Doorman in 1953 I got the idea to paint up the Whirlwind (British build H-19) from the HMS Victorious 1958 package as the MLD HO4S 8-3 "Cleopatra" to act as plane guard helicopter for the aicarrier formation with Karel Doorman.

Now to the question: Which side would the plane guard HO4S be flying when on plane guard duties? Most other straight deck ai formations put the heli on the right side, but it would be nice to get some more information.
My bet is that they did not want the plane guard heli on the left side as the aircraft do left circuits when landing and therefore would put the heli on the flight path of a wave off. When the angled deck arrived I understand that the plane guard was moved to the left side for faster response.

[DaveB]

Ours tend to go on the left side aft (last 3rd of the ship).. a suitable distance from the carrier to be out of the way but close enough should the worst happen.

ATB
DaveB:)

[JensOle]

Did the royal navy have the plane guard heli on the left side in the pre angled deck period with fixed wing flying(early 50's)? The issue as i can see it is that on the left side it will be straight in the wave off flight path. Or it could be placed far out on the left side to keep clear. Of course when the angled deck came along the aircrsft could of course just follow the flight path of the angled deck and it was no collision danger sith the heli on the left side

[DaveB]

In the absence of Skippy jumping in.. I'll have a dig around.;)

ATB
DaveB:)

[delta_lima]

Photos suggest stbd side for straight deck period for Dutch ...

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karel_Doorman_Launching_Sea_Fury_NAN10-56.jpg

I've only seen photos of port on USN, whether straight or angled.

DL

[Cees Donker]

Where's Huub? He'll know it! But DL is probably right.

:wavey:

Cees

[huub vink]

Cees,

You have too much faith in me. But in this case I can confirm Delta_Lima is right. The starboard side is correct.

(The helicopter on the pictures is the Salomé)

Cheers,
Huub

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29002&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29003&stc=1

[DaveB]

I agree.. that shot speaks a thousand words.

Looking back through shots of RN carriers of the same era.. even though we still had straight decks, the angle was painted on so landings weren't straight down the deck. I found one shot of Albion during the Suez Crisis and her helo is aft/left. I presume that should an aircraft go over the end on a straight deck configured carrier.. the procedure would be for the ship to go hard to port though whether it would get out of the way in time to miss the aircraft is doubtful. Regardless.. you gotta have a plan;)

ATB
DaveB:)

[JensOle]

Thanks!


Bellow are some shots of the K-L, Sea Fury and "HO4S" plane guard. Any idea of my current British C-class destroyer escort was used by the Dutch at the time or do I need to find something more modern?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/JensOle/Europe/Scrshot1583.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/JensOle/Europe/Scrshot1587.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/JensOle/Europe/Scrshot1592.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/JensOle/Europe/Scrshot1597.jpg~original

[JensOle]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/JensOle/Europe/Scrshot1600.jpg~original

[DaveB]

That destroyer looks perfect for the job JensK. While the Dutch had some 4 destroyers of their own design in the 50's (ordered pre-WWII) they also had a number of ex-RN units. The one in shot looks just fine:encouragement:

ATB
DaveB:)

[Cees Donker]

Great work Jens! Will it be available for download sometime?

:wavey:

Cees

[hertzie]

Oh Jens, you would make me VERY happy with a KaDO !!

Cheers, hertzie.

[JensOle]

Hi,

I'm working tomorrow, maybe I'll get the files up in the evening.

For people interested you can start with downloaded the additional model files:

-HMS "C-class destroyer" 1950
-HMAS Sydney
-Flying stations HMS Victorious (rebuild 60's) for the S-55/H-19

All files should be here at the SoH I think.

[ian elliot]

On the strength of those screenshots, ive just bought the Flying stations Sea Fury, worth 10 pounds of anyone's money, thanks guys, best prop in my hanger :ernaehrung004:

cheers ian

[JensOle]

Hi,

As promised, here is the beta for the Karel Doorman group with texture and config files. The readme is rather basic, but the file setup should be familiar with any one which have seen the FSX file structure before. Enjoy!

29037

[DaveB]

Nice one JensOle:encouragement:

http://daveb.cbfsim.org/public/kd.jpg

ATB
DaveB:)

[Cees Donker]

Off to install......

:encouragement:


Cees

[Cees Donker]

Closing the throttle to idle of the Sea Fury makes the plane loose it's spinner and the plane topples and crashes. Has anybody experienced the same phenomenon?

Cees

[JensOle]

Never seen or heard about something like that! Maybe try a fresh install?

There is also a P3D update for the Fury in the P3D forum which fixes a major fps issue.

[JensOle]

Something I forgot to write is that you need to change the speed/acceleration of the HMAS Sydney to match the helicopter or the plane guard will accelerate past the ship. Look up the sim.cfg file and make the adjustments.

[DaveB]

Nope.. not seen anything like that either. Just loaded it up to make sure and all remains intact.

One thing I noticed when installing the carrier paint yesterday.. there may be more than one version of the Sydney knocking around. The AICarriers ref:
[fltsim.xxx]
title=Karel_Doorman_1954
model=Sydney_50
texture=KD

.. shows model=Sydney_50. My Sydney is a 'standalone' and the model= line is just that.. model= so I changed the AIC entry for Karel Doorman to read the same as it uses the same model. Looking at the mdl.cfg and the mdl's.. they do ref Sydney_50 but pointing the paint to the model folder is enough:)

ATB
DaveB:)

[JensOle]

Good catch, i have a joint folder for all of the colossus class carriers.

[DaveB]

That's not a bad idea. With the amount of ships in my boats folder.. I wonder just how many duplicates I have which reference the same models but in different folders! A job for a rainy day me thinks;)

ATB
DaveB:)

[Cees Donker]

Closing the throttle to idle of the Sea Fury makes the plane loose it's spinner and the plane topples and crashes. Has anybody experienced the same phenomenon?

Cees

It does this on both my installs. Could it be fsuipc in combination with the throttle?

Cees

[JensOle]

Very strange indeed, I have never seen this problem before. I'm no expert in FSUIPC, do you have the latest version and / or have you tried to start FSX without the controls?

I'm painting up F-31, it got a cold cat launch in February 1954 and went into the sea. My Dutch is limited to the words which are similar to Norwegian and German, any one which can give a quick translation about the cause of the cold cat launch? From what I can read so did the pilot, van der Kop survive and was later picked up by the plane guard HO4S. Did the carrier pass over him?

http://www.kareldoormanr81.nl/html/oefenreis_middellandse_zee_195.html

[mgr]

Very strange indeed, I have never seen this problem before. I'm no expert in FSUIPC, do you have the latest version and / or have you tried to start FSX without the controls?
I'm painting up F-31, it got a cold cat launch in February 1954 and went into the sea. My Dutch is limited to the words which are similar to Norwegian and German, any one which can give a quick translation about the cause of the cold cat launch? From what I can read so did the pilot, van der Kop survive and was later picked up by the plane guard HO4S. Did the carrier pass over him?


Yes, or just past him, the carrier was running high speed, the pilot surfaced in the wake of the carrier.

The source of the accident was the braking of the braking-ring of the catapult too soon (does this make any sense? ;-) ) so the speed of the plane was not high enough.

Marcel

[TARPSBird]

The translation I got gave me the same thing as Marcel. The hold-back (shear) ring sheared before the cat was up to full pressure. Not enough speed at the end of the cat stroke so the bird went in the drink and was then run over by the Doorman. The pilot HJE van der Kop miraculously surfaced behind the ship and was rescued by the helo. This same scenario has happened to USN pilots who have ditched or punched out in front of the ship and then did the "frog in a blender" routine under the ship and through the screws. Nowadays the shear rings have been replaced by pins like this one (see pic) used by F-8 Crusaders.

[hertzie]

Hi Jens,

Thanks VERY VERY much for the KaDO. Just a question: is it correct that the flags (nor the British on the Sydney, nor the Dutch on the KaDo) show up or is it something with my FSX ?

Regards, hertzie.

[DaveB]

hertzie..

I don't recall ever seeing flags on the carrier. The Destroyers have them though:encouragement:

ATB
DaveB:)

[JensOle]

Only the destroyer, or torpedobootjager in dutch, has a flag. No flag on the carrier model as far as i know.

[JensOle]

Cees, how is it going with the Sea Fury? SkippyBing should be the man to ask if you still have issues.

[Cees Donker]

Cees, how is it going with the Sea Fury? SkippyBing should be the man to ask if you still have issues.

Hi Jens,

I noticed that my throttle's zero value is beyond the zero value of the throttle in the Fury. When I go beyond that value the described phenomenon occurs. No other plane has that.

It's probably fsuipc, as I used the registered version to get my Rhino X55 to work properly. Maybe I can fiddle with the aircraft.cfg to solve this.

Cees

[huub vink]

It must be it Cees. I have tried several things with my Sea Furies, but they all kept flying.

Cheers,
Huub

[JensOle]

The translation I got gave me the same thing as Marcel. The hold-back (shear) ring sheared before the cat was up to full pressure. Not enough speed at the end of the cat stroke so the bird went in the drink and was then run over by the Doorman. The pilot HJE van der Kop miraculously surfaced behind the ship and was rescued by the helo. This same scenario has happened to USN pilots who have ditched or punched out in front of the ship and then did the "frog in a blender" routine under the ship and through the screws. Nowadays the shear rings have been replaced by pins like this one (see pic) used by F-8 Crusaders.

Thanks for the info! I have read about some amazing survivals from F-8 cold cat shots, must have been a very frightening experience to sink with the plane, watch the carrier pass by and then swim up to the surface.. Maybe even more so for van der Kop as the Sea Fury would probably not sink as fast as the dart like F-8 and the wreck would be in direct collision course with the carrier.

[JensOle]

Do anybody know why the Sea Furies had both white and orange spinners on the pictures from the 1954 cruise? (I know orange is the Dutch color.. :-)

From the 1954 cruise, a quick look at the pictures shows that several including F-5 and F-44 have the orange and several including F-22 and F-31 have the white. Was it a flight section marking?

http://www.kareldoormanr81.nl/html/oefenreis_middellandse_zee_195.html

[DaveB]

That's a logical assumption and the only one I can think of considering they were all the same squadron:)

ATB
DaveB:)

[huub vink]

JensOle,

The spinners were painted in different colours to recognise the squadrons. Orange for 860 squadron, white for 3rd squadron (both Sea furies) and blue for the Fireflies of 2nd squadron and red for the Fireflies and Sea Furies from 4th squadron.

The colours were introduced in 1951 when the Karel Doorman was on a trip over the Mediterranean and the spinners from the 860sqn were painted orange to make the more easy to recognise.

Cheers,
Huub

[JensOle]

Huub,

Only VSQ 860 is listed for the cruise, is the logical conclusion that 860 flew former/borrowed VSQ 3 Sea Furies?

[DaveB]

I'm giving up on this.. my Dutch is zero:biggrin-new:

Two of the aircraft in your link seem to show different coloured spinners (F31 and F44) and both are listed as VSQ860. I've only found one reference to VSQ3 Sea Furies and I don't understand the page.

ATB
DaveB:)

[huub vink]

Huub,

Only VSQ 860 is listed for the cruise, is the logical conclusion that 860 flew former/borrowed VSQ 3 Sea Furies?

Sorry JenOle, but I can't answer that question. I have checked the whole book "Camouflage and Markings of the Aircraft of the Dutch Forces" by Mr Greuter, which can be considered as the standard on this topic, but I was not able the answer.

The only thing which came up was that perhaps some spinners were not yet repainted, as the paintjob was done during the trip or that the pictures from F-22 and F-31 were taken on another occasion. For photo 0474 from the F-31 this is almost certain. For the picture of the F-22 this is a guess.

Cheers,
Huub

[Cees Donker]

Thanks for a wonderful carrier JensOle!

:wavey:

Cees