Cera Sim UH-60L or Bell 412?

[malibu43]

Having just added rudder pedals to my flight sim set-up, I've been looking at getting a fun new Helo to fly in P3D (I know this is the FSX forum but I think I'll get more info here). I've been eyeing both the UH-60 and Bell 412, and see that they're both on sale for the weekend. I know they're different helicopters with different roles and different flight/control characteristics. And further still, how well those are modeled in the simulator could be different between the two.

I can't decide which one I want. I'd like something to compliment what I already have and enjoy (or don't enjoy) which is as follows:

DCS Huey - Different platform and feels way "livelier" than anything I've tried in FSX/P3D. The chopper feels/sounds alive and is totally stick and pedals flying. I like Huey's so the Bell 412 seems tempting, but I'm concerned it may not compare to the Huey I've flown in DCS and maybe it would be redundant and even a little disappointing.

R22 included with P3D - I like the way it flies and feels. Doesn't seem like it's "on rails" but isn't too difficult to use. Definitely have to dance on the rudder pedals to keep it where I want it.

Stargate Studios AH-1W - Flight model seems OK. Feels way more stable than the R22 and especially the DCS Huey. I feel like I can get away with less rudder work to keep it in a hover or taxi. Not sure if this is because it's a more advanced helicopter or a simplistic flight model.

EH101 in FSX - Was OK, but felt way to stable. I could hover without any use of rudder or maybe just by using the twist on my old joystick. Could have been realistic, but wasn't very fun.

I think I'm leaning toward the UH-60L. My guess is that the 412 will feel a little simplified compared to the DCS Huey. The question that I have about the UH-60 is how "lively" does the flight model feel? I'm sure it won't be like the DCS Huey (both because it's a different sim platform and because the UH-60 is bigger and more modern, so my guess is should be a little more stable), but is it going to be more challenging than the FSX Acc EH101?

Thanks!

PS - Just moved to Southern California and my commute takes me past Pendleton every day. Been seeing lots of Seahawks and Jayhawks, which makes the UH-60 even more tempting!

[JimmyRFR]

I rather like the CeraSim birds, I have them all. The UH-60 is stable, but very nice to fly out of the box. I believe that there may be a HTR config available for it, but I've never bothered. All of their products are rather good; I don't know if I could pick a favorite.

Not sure if you're aware, but there's a program called Helicopter Total Realism (HTR) available at hovercontrol.com; it replaces the FDE on any helicopter so long as there's a profile available. It goes a long way to making the helicopters in FSX a bit more challenging. I'm not totally a fan; some helicopters are marvelous with it, others less so I've found.

Also, if you're more concerned with the flight model than the eye candy, there's a 206 made by Dodosim that's pretty much the pinnacle of helicopter flight modelling in FSX. It's older however, and not quite at the graphical standards of more recent releases. They are working on an update however.

The later two options bring FSX helicopter flying closer to DCS; however, the modelling in DCS is quite a step above. In fact, it's to the point where I don't really enjoy it without a dedicated cyclic and collective. Too much like work...

My platform of choice for helicopter flying is currently X-Plane. It does a decent job with flight modelling, and has some absolutely top of the line helicopters available. The updated R22 from Dreamfoil is absolutely my favorite, but the 412 from XTrident is also extremely well done. In addition to the flight modelling, there's also quite a bit of systems replication present in quite a few of the available helis that add to the package. Add silky smooth framerates and a richly configurable view system, and it's very well suited for flying helicopters.

Edit: I just noticed you said P3D... I have no idea how well HTR works in P3D, or how well the CeraSim birds install into it!! Your mileage may vary.

[malibu43]

I rather like the CeraSim birds, I have them all. The UH-60 is stable, but very nice to fly out of the box. I believe that there may be a HTR config available for it, but I've never bothered. All of their products are rather good; I don't know if I could pick a favorite.

Not sure if you're aware, but there's a program called Helicopter Total Realism (HTR) available at hovercontrol.com; it replaces the FDE on any helicopter so long as there's a profile available. It goes a long way to making the helicopters in FSX a bit more challenging. I'm not totally a fan; some helicopters are marvelous with it, others less so I've found.

Also, if you're more concerned with the flight model than the eye candy, there's a 206 made by Dodosim that's pretty much the pinnacle of helicopter flight modelling in FSX. It's older however, and not quite at the graphical standards of more recent releases. They are working on an update however.

The later two options bring FSX helicopter flying closer to DCS; however, the modelling in DCS is quite a step above. In fact, it's to the point where I don't really enjoy it without a dedicated cyclic and collective. Too much like work...

My platform of choice for helicopter flying is currently X-Plane. It does a decent job with flight modelling, and has some absolutely top of the line helicopters available. The updated R22 from Dreamfoil is absolutely my favorite, but the 412 from XTrident is also extremely well done. In addition to the flight modelling, there's also quite a bit of systems replication present in quite a few of the available helis that add to the package. Add silky smooth framerates and a richly configurable view system, and it's very well suited for flying helicopters.

Edit: I just noticed you said P3D... I have no idea how well HTR works in P3D, or how well the CeraSim birds install into it!! Your mileage may vary.

Thanks. I used HTR on FSX a few times, but I actually had to stop using it because I was using a joystick twist without rudder pedals. I was too difficult, but with rudder pedals now maybe it's worth another try. A quick google search resulted in some reports that HTR works in P3Dv2, so I may give it a try. I try to avoid extra programs that need to be started along with my flight sim, though.

Still leaning toward the UH-60L, even if it's "stable". But I'm interested to see what others have to say still.

Oh, and regarding the Dodo 206 - I've heard it's the pinnacle of FSX helo flying. But, the 206 just doesn't strike my interest. Not as "cool" as a UH-60 or 412, for me anyway.

[SeanTK]

Keep in mind that the UH-60 has an extensive Stability Augmentation System (SAS) that really negates a lot of the finer control and stability concerns that are common in most helicopters. To me, Cera's flight models (I have the UH-60, Bell 222, and Bell 212) all seem way too easy and simplified, but if you use HTR and/or Jordan Moore's flight dynamics updates for the 212 and 412, things are improved).

JM's flight dynamics:
http://www.hovercontrol.com/flightdynamics/flightdynamics.zip

[Victory103]

Systems wise Cera has the H60 on par with the real thing. Not sure about the 412, but I have the 222 and 212, both seem to have most systems modeled. HTR is a must for FS helos, sadly an external program will still need to be used to get the most out of the rotary flight dynamics that MS seem to have forgot in the sim. Do recommend pedals, one can get by with a twist stick, but to truly get the helicopter immersion down, buy pedals. There are few other gauges I would add, like force trim and Dirk F's helo autopilot.

[DaveB]

I can't choose one over the other here and I have them all. The least one I fly is the 222 followed by the 212 then the UH60 then the 412 but there's little to choose between any of them. They all have strengths and weaknesses so do what I did.. buy the lot while they're in a sale;)

ATB
DaveB:)

[malibu43]

Thanks for more feedback everyone. I think I'm going to grab the blackhawk later today. I found some USN and USGC paints at ozx that will make it work in pretty much any setting. I'm sure even with the SAS it will be enough of a challenge for my helo skills. If not I'll give HTR a shot.

If I feel a Huey itch I'll go to DCS to scratch it.

And, btw Victory, in the OP I mentioned that I just got pedals, and that's what inspired me to buy a helo. :untroubled:

[SeanTK]

Thanks for more feedback everyone. I think I'm going to grab the blackhawk later today. I found some USN and USGC paints at ozx that will make it work in pretty much any setting. I'm sure even with the SAS it will be enough of a challenge for my helo skills. If not I'll give HTR a shot.

If I feel a Huey itch I'll go to DCS to scratch it.

And, btw Victory, in the OP I mentioned that I just got pedals, and that's what inspired me to buy a helo. :untroubled:

I presume you've read about the issues with the hydraulic reservoir #2 caution lights and the limitations of how you set up a free flight with it. In short, ensure that your default/saved flight starts with engines running prior to switching to (or starting with) the UH-60. This product requires that the engines are running when first loaded for everything to function correctly. You can then shut it down using an animations / flying state menu, and do a manual start up (or automated).

[Christoph_T]

Can anyone say something about the compability of the UH-60 with P3Dv2??
Would be cool to give that workhorse a place in my hangar...

[hae5904]

Christoph, works like a charm within P3D2, not any different than FSX. :encouragement:

Hank


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28722&stc=1

[Christoph_T]

Christoph, works like a charm within P3D2, not any different than FSX. :encouragement:

Hank


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28722&stc=1


Thanks Hank.
Maybe its time for some heli-practice:wiggle:.

[malibu43]

Thanks for all the responses folks. I picked it up and got it installed, but haven't had much of a chance to try it out yet. I did do my standard "load up the sim and make sure it installed correctly" thing, and it looks like it did. I also did the other thing I usually do if I don't have time for a full test flight (with controllers connected) and tried to take off and fly using the F1 and F4 keys and mouse yoke. Believe or not, a lot of helos in FSX/P3D are flyable this way (and those are also usually the ones with disappointing FMs). But not the UH-60! Uncontrollable spinning was all I could get. I take that as a good sign! I'll have to actually fly it!

[Victory103]

Well you can actually hover the 60 with your feet on the floor, see how you feel once you get your controllers running.