Justflight purchases of MV products.

[Katoun]

Hi,

We are sad to say that we're no longer going to be supporting any items from Justflight.

There are two main reasons:

1) there are many of these items, boxed and otherwise, being sold as secondhand items and we're having to support multiple clients on one sale.

2) Justflight, on at least one item, broke the installer such that it never worked "out of the box".

So, it is with sadness that we cannot provide support for these items any longer.

Thank you.

Kat

[Meshman]

In before the thermo-nuclear war erupts and the thread's eventual locking...:icon36:

[RAS_JF]

No problem. If anyone is having any issues with these products then please come direct to us as we will happily continue supporting you.

No need for thread locking I hope. Keep up the good work over at Milvis, chaps.

[Roger]

We'll be watching but as long as it stays civil it'll stay open.

[Maj Kong]

Folks at MilViz are among the best in all respects. Sorry someone took advantage of your trust.
Best Wishes
Neal H

[ce_zeta]

if they still have support...No problem. :encouragement:

But Kat, you should know that your reason 1 oppose the EU Directive 2009/24/EC.

[Desert Rat]

Hi,

We are sad to say that we're no longer going to be supporting any items from Justflight.

There are two main reasons:

1) there are many of these items, boxed and otherwise, being sold as secondhand items and we're having to support multiple clients on one sale.

2) Justflight, on at least one item, broke the installer such that it never worked "out of the box".

So, it is with sadness that we cannot provide support for these items any longer.

Thank you.

Kat

Kat,

surely a matter for behind closed doors? Sure, state the intent, but the reasons need not be aired in public?

Point 1: Not JF fault, you must have agreed to boxed product sales before they happened. Not surewhat 'otherwise' entails, the mind boggles. :dizzy:

Point 2: Definitely a case of technical support behind closed doors that should not involve public outing. A modicum of dignity is always appreciated, especially from those that seek respect from their peers.

kind regards,
Jamie.

[DaveSHQ]

If i had a box for every add on i bought for FSX.....

[strykerpsg]

Kat,

surely a matter for behind closed doors? Sure, state the intent, but the reasons need not be aired in public?

Point 1: Not JF fault, you must have agreed to boxed product sales before they happened. Not surewhat 'otherwise' entails, the mind boggles. :dizzy:

Point 2: Definitely a case of technical support behind closed doors that should not involve public outing. A modicum of dignity is always appreciated, especially from those that seek respect from their peers.

kind regards,
Jamie.

Jamie, I disagree with the sentiment of taking the issue be a behind closed doors conversation. Milviz is being open and honest about their reasons behind not supporting, for their current and future clients. The fact that Milviz has been openly honest about much of their internal affairs over the years and how they wish to resolve them, makes them head and shoulders above many other developers that are less honest or sincere about their consumers interest, in my opinion.



No problem. If anyone is having any issues with these products then please come direct to us as we will happily continue supporting you.

No need for thread locking I hope. Keep up the good work over at Milvis, chaps.

And finally, it's the fact that these two powerhouse teams can openly agree about the grievance makes them both very honorable and will keep my investment futures in their products very secure indeed. Kudos to both Ras of Just Flight and Katoun of Milviz for working this amicably and openly.

[Katoun]

Hi,

We feel that there is no animosity between JF and us at this time.

Just as an FYI, we are not in the EU and are therefore not bound by their laws. Same for the States.

Thank you.

Kat.

[Jafo]

Hi,

We feel that there is no animosity between JF and us at this time.

Just as an FYI, we are not in the EU and are therefore not bound by their laws. Same for the States.

Thank you.

Kat.
Sometimes it's good to be neither in the EU nor the States ...;)

[Katoun]

Hi,

Yes, being in Canada has it's good points. One of them is the healthcare system.

Of course, there are some very bad things. Like the weather. Very VERY bad.

Kat.

[Jafo]

Hi,

Yes, being in Canada has it's good points. One of them is the healthcare system.

Of course, there are some very bad things. Like the weather. Very VERY bad.

Kat.
Madly derailing this thread but...
I was in Canada in 2009 ....did the Red Leaf trip....only complaint was the lack of wildlife....[I think those bears are closely related to leprechauns]...;)

I'm from Oz....born and [in]bred [from Tassie] ...;)

[Dumonceau]

No problem. If anyone is having any issues with these products then please come direct to us as we will happily continue supporting you.

No need for thread locking I hope. Keep up the good work over at Milvis, chaps.

And I've found JF support to be absolutely top-notch! And friendly at that!

Johan

[dhasdell]

And I've found JF support to be absolutely top-notch! And friendly at that!
Me too. When the Chipmunk was first released and had problems JF immediately offered me a refund, even though it was installed and I could have simply accepted but kept it, at least until a new install was needed.

[ce_zeta]

Hi,

We feel that there is no animosity between JF and us at this time.

Just as an FYI, we are not in the EU and are therefore not bound by their laws. Same for the States.

Thank you.

Kat.

:jawdrop:
OMG. FYI where you from is not the fact. If you make business with EU and/or US companies, you are bound to some laws. In this case JF is a British company. If you sell to US and EU customers, maybe you should respect some laws too.
You shouldn't play with fire. Respect the laws and everything will be fine :encouragement:
with this deal with JF you had luck, but in the future nobody knows and we want to enjoy our hobby with new developments from Milviz all our life.

P.S. contact with your lawyers for more info.

[dougal]

:jawdrop:
OMG. FYI where you from is not the fact. If you make business with EU and/or US companies, you are bound to some laws. In this case JF is a British company. If you sell to US and EU customers, maybe you should respect some laws too.
You shouldn't play with fire. Respect the laws and everything will be fine :encouragement:
with this deal with JF you had luck, but in the future nobody knows and we want to enjoy our hobby with new developments from Milviz all our life.

P.S. contact with your lawyers for more info.

Oh dear.... Silly post!

My thoughts are ONLY that I wish developers OR vendors, when posting such as the OP and followup by what 'APPEARS' to be JustFlight'????, would let others know WHO you are;-) Not everyone knows (or cares) which indidvidual works for which company. Surely a commercial member should be marked as such?

Does that make sense. I sort of know what i mean;-)

[ce_zeta]

Oh dear.... Silly post!

My thoughts are ONLY that I wish developers OR vendors, when posting such as the OP and followup by what 'APPEARS' to be JustFlight'????, would let others know WHO you are;-) Not everyone knows (or cares) which indidvidual works for which company. Surely a commercial member should be marked as such?

Does that make sense. I sort of know what i mean;-)
Ignorance is dangerous Bro! You should think more about the topic. It's not a silly question when an unfavorable court decision can have a deep impact in financial results of any developer. I mean, it's better prevention than cure.

As a FAN, I want a strong community of developers.
As a CUSTOMER I want that all developers respect my rights.

[dougal]

Ignorance is dangerous Bro! You should think more about the topic. It's not a silly question when an unfavorable court decision can have a deep impact in financial results of any developer. I mean, it's better prevention than cure.

As a FAN, I want a strong community of developers.
As a CUSTOMER I want that all developers respect my rights.

I really DON'T want to derail this thread, as its done extremely well, BUT.... Having tried to be a vendor through internet sales, I can confirm with assurity, that if EVERY developer and vendor had to conform to EVERY countries laws that they sell to, then they could NEVER be in a posision to sell ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

Just ask Francoise. He has some recent first hand experience of this.

[Katoun]

HI,

We do not, as a Canadian company, have to comply with any other countries methods, taxes, laws or what have you.

All of the vendors that we go through MUST comply with their own countries methods, taxes, laws or what have you.

We provide support for ALL of our products as long as you are the original purchaser(s).

Thank you.

Kat.

[Dumonceau]

I really DON'T want to derail this thread, as its done extremely well, BUT.... Having tried to be a vendor through internet sales, I can confirm with assurity, that if EVERY developer and vendor had to conform to EVERY countries laws that they sell to, then they could NEVER be in a posision to sell ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

Just ask Francoise. He has some recent first hand experience of this.

Well the law and taxes are there for everyone.

[ce_zeta]

I really DON'T want to derail this thread, as its done extremely well, BUT.... Having tried to be a vendor through internet sales, I can confirm with assurity, that if EVERY developer and vendor had to conform to EVERY countries laws that they sell to, then they could NEVER be in a posision to sell ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

Just ask Francoise. He has some recent first hand experience of this.
Well.... at the moment when you show a disrespectful behaviour you derailed this thread.

For this reason, I said "Contact with your lawyer". We can start a fight in this thread but will be sterile, for this reason I wrote, Contact with your lawyer for more info.
:banghead:

[dougal]

Well.... at the moment when you show a disrespectful behaviour you derailed this thread.

For this reason, I said "Contact with your lawyer". We can start a fight in this thread but will be sterile, for this reason I wrote, Contact with your lawyer for more info.
:banghead:

I've no idea what's going on here so I'm out of here. Don't think i've been disrespectful but anyone else thinks i have then please tell me and I'll promptly apologise. ta ta!

[DaveB]

It was always going to get untidy and I see it has. Kinda ironic that the 2 parties concerned are completely amicable about the issue. Not so the lower deck lawyers:biggrin-new:

ATB
DaveB:)

[roger-wilco-66]

@ce_ceta:

Oh come on. Sorry but:

Kat made an official statement. That was all and should be appreciated.

There's no need to involve lawyers and legal stuff about it. If you want to make a suggestion to MILVIZ, this is very private and in my opinion you should write them an E-Mail. If you air that in the public you can expect opposition.


Cheers,
Mark

PS: normally I don't engage in that kind of mud slinging, but I couldn't resist.

[hschuit]

It was always going to get untidy and I see it has. Kinda ironic that the 2 parties concerned are completely amicable about the issue. Not so the lower deck lawyers:biggrin-new:

ATB
DaveB:)

+1, can the admins please close this topic, I think it has run it's course.

[Roger]

We'll be watching but as long as it stays civil it'll stay open.

Come on now, I really hoped this could remain open, but I don't know for how much longer it will.

[dougal]

Come on now, I really hoped this could remain open, but I don't know for how much longer it will.

I REALLY had no intension of offending anyone Roger, and don't see how i did. If I did, in ANY way, then please acept my apolgies.

[mal998]

Many of us have seen these kinds of discussions before; that is a public airing of disclaimers, disagreements or statements of non-support between developers and/or retailers. They never end well. It is my humble opinion that such changes in developer support be handled off the air waves. We in the public need only know a decision to end support has been made without hearing all the details about why. It's a business relationship between two companies that really does not concern us outsiders. I for one am satisfied to simply hear that support for a particular product has been terminated. I really don't care to hear all the sorted details about why. "He did this" and "they did that" and so on and so forth.

For what little it's worth, my 2 cents.

[Katoun]

Hi,

The problem with that is that we have recently gotten well over 50 support requests for second-hand products which, in all good faith, we cannot support.

So we are telling as many people/clients as we can so that they do not a: buy second-hand products and expect to get support and b: that those who have done so will not try and get support.

To be clear, we do not have ANY issues with Justflight. This isn't about them but about some of the products that have been sold by them for us.

Every support request takes up time and effort. This is time that is taken away from actually building products.

So, the decision was made to make an announcement here as well as on all our available venues.

There was no problem until someone started claiming that we're not allowed to disallow support on those sales.

Just as an FYI, we don't actually HAVE to supply support at all. We do so because we believe in our products.

Thank you.

Kat.

[Desert Rat]

Many of us have seen these kinds of discussions before; that is a public airing of disclaimers, disagreements or statements of non-support between developers and/or retailers. They never end well. It is my humble opinion that such changes in developer support be handled off the air waves. We in the public need only know a decision to end support has been made without hearing all the details about why. It's a business relationship between two companies that really does not concern us outsiders. I for one am satisfied to simply hear that support for a particular product has been terminated. I really don't care to hear all the sorted details about why. "He did this" and "they did that" and so on and so forth.

For what little it's worth, my 2 cents.


Thank you.

[ce_zeta]

@ce_ceta:

Oh come on. Sorry but:

Kat made an official statement. That was all and should be appreciated.

There's no need to involve lawyers and legal stuff about it. If you want to make a suggestion to MILVIZ, this is very private and in my opinion you should write them an E-Mail. If you air that in the public you can expect opposition.


Cheers,
Mark

PS: normally I don't engage in that kind of mud slinging, but I couldn't resist.
Of course, it's appreciated. And I want to call attention to one issue that should be treated carefully.
If I have opposition in order to prevent some bad suprises in the future for some developers...I accept that. And this is not a private question, surely is interesting for other developers.
They cannot make some statements in public.


The problem with that is that we have recently gotten well over 50 support requests for second-hand products which, in all good faith, we cannot support.
We know that your industry is very exigent. Simmers demand high quality addons at lower prices and fully support. In this industry noboby win millions. We know that. Software business have some dark zones about second hand market and support. When you buy a car or a PC, you have support and a guarantee....In software all is more blurred.

You are focusing the problem in the customers...but support is focused in the product (each unit sold). What is the expected cycle of life of your product? Maybe it's a nonsense provide support for products with X years in the market ( X= any number above 2 years for example) or better... don't provide support for a unit sold 2 or three years ago...like a guarantee more or less.
You can find solutions without enter in conflict zones.

[mmann]

You can find solutions without enter in conflict zones.

That's peculiar; I didn't perceive any conflict, just a statement of fact clarifying a position taken with respect to product support.
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[mal998]

Kat,
Understood! Onwards and upwards....

[stovall]

I will keep the thread open until all seem to have expressed their opinions. Again Kat made an official announcement that is all. Comments should be directed along those lines.