FSAddon European sales will stop

[Francois]

Dear customers, dear flightsim friends,

due to some new and incredibly stupid regulations pressed upon us by the European Commission, it is now impossible for me personally to continue digital sales in Europe. The new VAT regulations are so complex and time consuming that it is impossible for small companies with a limited budget and even more limited time to adhere to them.

I am sorry for you, for my authors, and for myself. I worked 10 years to set up a means to make some money for us all and provide you with stellar Flight Simulation products and sell them in my OWN little shop, so I could accompany the products with stellar support and the occasional ‘freebie’ ! Alas, our politicians and tax bureaucrats have decided that they will rather have people go to welfare and spend tax payers money than to work hard and make an honest buck.

I will also take the MAIN WEBSITE off-line and switch to the new one. Unfortunately I can NOT take the current forum along. I have tried, but it is technically too hard. On the new webshop I will only sell DVD’s internationally (these are exempt so far from the new VAT rules…… not for long probably) and downloads to NON-EU customers !

Our FSAddon products for DOWNLOAD can still be found on simMarket.com, Aerosoft.com and FSPilotshop.com

The new shop will be here: http://fsaddon-publishing.myshopify.com/
The new website is here: http://fssupport.com/fsaddon/

These URL’s may change yet over the next weeks……

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you and thank you for sticking with us all these years !

Francois

[PHo17]

Dear customers, dear flightsim friends,

due to some new and incredibly stupid regulations pressed upon us by the European Commission, it is now impossible for me personally to continue digital sales in Europe. The new VAT regulations are so complex and time consuming that it is impossible for small companies with a limited budget and even more limited time to adhere to them.
...


I am sorry for you and us - customers to hear that. I couldn't more agree with you that European Union is consistent with it's "lose - lose" politics. One actual example being these Russian sanctions. Everybody lose not least my own country Finland. It is more or less like shooting own leg.

Almost every morning when I open my morning's newspaper I can read of these stupid regulations that highly payed EU officials have invented. Today's news was that because of a in 2010 announced directive Finnish museum authorieties ware forced to reveal in public all coordinates of the known wrecks in our sees. By today many of them has been robbed. For what we need this kind of Union?

Pekka

[roger-wilco-66]

Hi Francois,

this is shocking, I'm really sorry to read this. These over-regulations are getting worse every year.

Maybe you should have moved to Barbados (...) and set up a global FSADDON shop there??


Cheers,
Mark

[Dumonceau]

François,

Wouldn't it be able for us EU citizens to buy online from you through a proxy or the Tor network?

I mean, if my IP address is one from Kuala Lumpur or Malaysia, there would be no problem, is that correct?

Cheers,

Dumonceau

[gray eagle]

François,

Wouldn't it be able for us EU citizens to buy online from you through a proxy or the Tor network?

I mean, if my IP address is one from Kuala Lumpur or Malaysia, there would be no problem, is that correct?

Cheers,

Dumonceau


I dunno, have you read this article? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/29/nsa_gchq_internet_security_pet_hates/

to quote for the article "Very naughty people use Tor" bear in mind, not my words but a quote from the article......

[Roger]

Sorry to hear this Francois! yet again the Eu blunders with bureaucracy.

[roger-wilco-66]

Just hiding the IP-adress won't cut it. You have to fake your whole identity (and subsequently risk loosing your customer rights).
That also might put the seller in harms way if some tax MIB show up and probe the sales figures.


Cheers,
Mark

[dougal]

Ain't you just gotta love the bleepin Eurocrats:dizzy: Sorry to hear that Francois, I know how hard you work too.

[JensOle]

Sorry to hear this. I'm from the "No" country Norway and this is another typical reason for not joining... The EU is killing its population with bureaucracy.. Sadly for Norway we are taking on most of the rules and regulations even if we are not a member nation to be compatible and due to the EFTA agreement..

[Bjoern]

The EU is killing its population with bureaucracy..

Yes, the streets are clogged with piles of bodies!

[Francois]

Part of the new regulations is that companies are FORCED to not only REGISTER all customer details (which in my view is against quite a number of privacy laws from the same EU), but they also need to PROVE the location and correctness of those customers !! That is one of the reasons I cannot comply.... I don't have the time, nor the means to do such things.

And it is rumoured that the same laws will come into effect in 2016 for ALL goods (so not only digital downloads as it is now). That will stop ALL of my direct sales to Europe, including DVD's.

[stovall]

Hopefully Europe is not using the U.S. as an example in bureaucracy. We definitely know how to create bureaucracy. Not sure I completely understand the problem. Using the Internet, only people outside Europe can buy your creations? Hard to understand why government would want to suppress sales that only bring in monetary gain for them in the form of taxes. The world is getting very complex.

[mal998]

Geez,
When are people going to learn that they hold the power, the power of the vote. If they don't like what the bleepin' politicans are doing they can kick the fools out on their arses!

[DaveB]

Geez,
When are people going to learn that they hold the power, the power of the vote. If they don't like what the bleepin' politicans are doing they can kick the fools out on their arses!

I'm not quite sure how that would work mate. When the EEC was originally formed (the European Economic Community).. the idea was sound. Unfortunately, the EEC 'as was' is all but gone and has morphed into what we now know as the EU which is something completely different. One thing is for sure.. the EU seems to cause more problems than it solves!

ATB
DaveB:)

[huub vink]

Sorry to hear this Francois. But at least we are still able to purchase your nice products.

And a gentle reminder; please do not turn this in discussion about the European Union, politicians and/or bureaucrats. This is a forum to discuss FSX related subject, lets limit to that.

Thanks,
Huub

[Francois]

I only explained that I will stop selling download products to EU customers and why. Basically, I can no longer afford it because of the exorbitant administrative and financial burden laid upon me. No discussion with people here...... although I AM discussing with politicians and their 'executives'.... :wavey:

[Dumonceau]

Part of the new regulations is that companies are FORCED to not only REGISTER all customer details (which in my view is against quite a number of privacy laws from the same EU), but they also need to PROVE the location and correctness of those customers !! That is one of the reasons I cannot comply.... I don't have the time, nor the means to do such things.

And it is rumoured that the same laws will come into effect in 2016 for ALL goods (so not only digital downloads as it is now). That will stop ALL of my direct sales to Europe, including DVD's.

François,

Given the fact that all your sales are registered on your site, wouldn't a "dump" of the database be enough? The proof on location of those same customers is in their IP addresses which can be logged quite easily in the same database.

Surely you are not responsible for the surfing "behaviour" of those customers?

Also, seeing that the new rules are focussed on VAT, and the fact that us EU citicens pay VAT when buying from your site, if you would just pay the VAT to the state administration where you live, AND provide those details in your database, you should be ok, not??

Dumonceau

[DaveB]

But at least we are still able to purchase your nice products.

Yes.. that's the main thing:encouragement: Your re-sellers are already geared up for VAT and while I understand your 'cut' will be diminished publishing via them.. it will be something for you and the team and we still get our hands on the goods.;)

ATB
DaveB:)

[Mickey D]

Yes.. that's the main thing:encouragement: Your re-sellers are already geared up for VAT and while I understand your 'cut' will be diminished publishing via them.. it will be something for you and the team and we still get our hands on the goods.;)

ATB
DaveB:)

Yup. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-supplying-digital-services-to-private-consumers is quite clear. Final paragraph

"Digital portals, platforms, gateways and marketplaces

If you supply e-services to consumers through an internet portal, gateway or marketplace, you need to determine whether you are making the supply to the consumer or to the platform operator. If the platform operator identifies you as the seller but sets the general terms and conditions, or authorises payment, or handles delivery/download of the digital service, the platform is considered to be supplying the consumer. They are therefore responsible for accounting for the VAT payment that is charged to the consumer."

It's the portal's responsibility to charge VAT. But I can see sales to any EU country ceasing. But hey ho there's the rest of the world. :jump: With luck Britain will be on her way out come May.

[DaveKDEN]

The slow ever enveloping creep of Socialism. Before you know it, you don't have any freedoms left.

[Naismith]

The slow ever enveloping creep of Socialism. Before you know it, you don't have any freedoms left.
Actually it is the complete opposite of Socialism.

[DaveKDEN]

Actually it is the complete opposite of Socialism.

You're joking right? The overwhelming evidence throughout history is the more power given to government, the less freedom the individual has. I think you need to re-examine the definition of Socialism as it's been PRACTICED in our times, vs. how it's been sold to you by liberal professors that permeate Universities. Government control and eventual state ownership of the ways and means of production and distribution of goods and services. Doesn't sound like individual freedom to me.

Undergrad in Political Science 1987, Masters in Public Administration 1995.

One of the best quotes ever - and it sums it up in one sentence:

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" - Margaret Thatcher

[Dangerousdave26]

You're joking right?

...And the topic of discussion here is FSAddon selling products in Europe not any other Political discussions.

Leave them at the door when entering SOH.

[Francois]

".... Also, seeing that the new rules are focussed on VAT, and the fact that us EU citicens pay VAT when buying from your site, if you would just pay the VAT to the state administration where you live, AND provide those details in your database, you should be ok, not?? ...".

I'm afraid it is more complicate than that. With the new rules I need to calculate 75 different tax rates depending on where a customer lives and what he buys...... 29 rates at the very minimum. My current shop software can only calculate 3, and I cannot change that.

But in addition I need to be able to show TWO bits of proof regarding every customer's location, his/her full credentials and address, IP address and all order details.

I need to do this twice. Once for the regular VAT for citizens of my own country, and then once for all other EU customers separately.

Furthermore I have only 20 days (was 30) to report after end of quarter, I need to have a special permit for it AND I need to keep all records for 10 years.

Folks, it is just TOO MUCH bother for those very few Euros I make with this, believe me. I just turned 62, I want a life... for what's left of it, and have some fun! Ideally I'd love to USE FS a little myself the next few years, too..... :biggrin-new:

[Bushpounder]

I am so sorry to hear this, my old friend. This has been your life. But this is only for European sales, correct? Can't you still develop and market the items through other FS outlets to remain in the game?

Don

[Snurdley]

I'm sorry to hear this as well. But thank you for sorting out the website issue for me. I'm thoroughly enjoying the Liz and Glad! :applause:

Todd

[Francois]

It is 'just' my own shop, yes and just for European downloads. Still, it is part of my independence and what I worked on for the past 10 years.

But as a famous character said repeatedly: I'LL BE BACK !

[Lawman]

Jeesh, I didn't know this was the Daily Mail-forum:banghead:. Fact is you're all blaming the wrong organisation; the real culprits are the national politicians:toilet_claw:.

[Dumonceau]

Jeesh, I didn't know this was the Daily Mail-forum:banghead:. Fact is you're all blaming the wrong organisation; the real culprits are the national politicians:toilet_claw:.

I agree. But the national policians "blame it on Europe"... Have that repeated enough in the mainstream press, et voilà: misinformation!

But, a happy 2015 to all!

D.

[n4gix]

It is 'just' my own shop, yes and just for European downloads. Still, it is part of my independence and what I worked on for the past 10 years.

But as a famous character said repeatedly: I'LL BE BACK !

Francois, have you considered using this firm? http://www.taxamo.com/
They will handle all of the work for you

Taxamo is completely free to use up to 20 transactions a month.

After that, fees begin at €0.20c per transaction, and decrease based on the volume of transactions. There is no sign-up fee and no ongoing monthly fees.

[Francois]

Yes, I have considered quite a few options. Fact remains the responsibility will remain on MY doorstep and I will have to deliver a lot of documentation to my local tax inspectors...... it just doesn't add up.
So for now I will only sell our products through other distributors, and take the financial hit of that..... until there is no longer a profit worth working for.

I hope to open up a new shop..... as soon as I can figure out how to prevent Europeans buying from it.

[Dave Torkington]

I hope to open up a new shop..... as soon as I can figure out how to prevent Europeans buying from it.

Francois, my Grandfather was Welsh so does that make me non-European?

Sometimes I think the 'red tape' should be on the mouths of those in charge... :a1310:

Keep up the great work sir!

Dave.

[PHo17]

What these new practices mean from customer's point of view?

This morning (1.1.2015) I had in my EMail box a newsletter from Simmarket. Went to the Internet shop and found out that now I have to pay Finland's overhelming 24% VAT for any purchase! That's among the biggest in whole EU. Well, I must now consider where to buy or buy at all because whole EU is now as expensive as Finland (one of the most expensive countries in the whole world).

As I told in my first message. EU is shooting it's own leg with this "lose-lose" politics.

Pekka

[Mickey D]

What these new practices mean from customer's point of view?

This morning (1.1.2015) I had in my EMail box a newsletter from Simmarket. Went to the Internet shop and found out that now I have to pay Finland's overhelming 24% VAT for any purchase! That's among the biggest in whole EU. Well, I must now consider where to buy or buy at all because whole EU is now as expensive as Finland (one of the most expensive countries in the whole world).

As I told in my first message. EU is shooting it's own leg with this "lose-lose" politics.

Pekka

If one repeatedly shoots oneself in the foot then one should at least shoot through the same hole.

I have contacted our vendors and it does seem to mean that as the retailers it is their responsibility to charge VAT at the rate according to the country in which the purchaser resides irrespective of where the store is based. Also they have to keep full details of the purchase and the purchaser for 10 years as I read it. Many retailers may decide to bar sales to EU countries altogether due to the hassle. At the very least it means that EU customers will be discriminated against and prices will rise by around 20% or so. Developers who supply the retailers are not affected as they don't sell direct. Happy New Year. :(

[DaveB]

I've been charged VAT (at the going rate) by Simmarket for ages so there's nothing new in this. Disappointingly.. the price quoted by default in Euros is generally what you end up paying in GBP which hardly seems right. How some folk have managed to avoid this in the past (and I know a few that have) is beyond me but there you go. The only sure fire way to know what you're gonna end up paying is to buy (in the UK) from UK vendors as these generally publish the total cost including VAT.

ATB
DaveB:)

[Smudge]

The difference now is that Simmarket's VAT charge will be dependent on the country the buyer is located in, rather than the country Simmarket is based (Germany as far as I recall). For Miguel and Team I think it's more admin, or at least changes to the store to cover the individual VAT charges per EU member country rather than the blanket x percent for Germany.

For non EU stores it's business as usual really. :)

Here's a handy table I found online.. :)

http://www.happybootstrapper.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/VAT_changes_2015.png

That all being said, I feel for Francois, everyone has a line in relation to how much admin is too much for the return you get.

[Dumonceau]

For non EU stores it's business as usual really. :).

So in other words relocating the store to a place/server outside the EU would do the trick?

Dumonceau

[DaveB]

The difference now is that Simmarket's VAT charge will be dependent on the country the buyer is located in, rather than the country Simmarket is based (Germany as far as I recall). For Miguel and Team I think it's more admin, or at least changes to the store to cover the individual VAT charges per EU member country rather than the blanket x percent for Germany.

For non EU stores it's business as usual really. :)

Here's a handy table I found online.. :)

http://www.happybootstrapper.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/VAT_changes_2015.png

That all being said, I feel for Francois, everyone has a line in relation to how much admin is too much for the return you get.

Rgr that Dave. If I'm not mistaken.. we've been hit here for 19% VAT regardless of what our VAT rate was so this may actually make things a little more fair (not that I'm saying having to pay VAT on flightsim software is fair anyway)!!!

ATB
DaveB:)

[nigel richards]

My sympathy is with you, Francois - take courage from these words;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uKm5pD7GWM

[Smudge]

So in other words relocating the store to a place/server outside the EU would do the trick?

Dumonceau

Not really, as what's coming in now is already the norm for non-EU businesses.

[Francois]

So in other words relocating the store to a place/server outside the EU would do the trick?

Dumonceau

Nope.

Although it will be difficult for the EU to 'attack' foreign sellers, officially ANY store selling to a EU citizen needs to charge the VAT in that citizen's country and PAY the respective government its share. It does NOT make a difference whether you are in the EU, the US or China !
Of course having a store and paying taxes inside the EU makes it that much more easy for them to fine you into oblivion if you do not adhere to these unfair tax law !

But it is a mistake to believe that US companies do not have t pay. In fact, they HAD to pay already since 2003 ! But most just ignored it and it wasn't well known to the majority of store owners and customers.

[Francois]

Developers who supply the retailers are not affected as they don't sell direct. Happy New Year. :(

Not true either.

1. Depending upon location of the retailer's customer and the retailer's shop, products MAY become more expensive for the consumer. And hence deter from buying !

2. Developers may be forced to go to a retailer/distributor that charges more than their previous one (!)

3. Remaining retailers will get a larger share of the market, enhancing their 'monopoly' and allowing them to take an even bigger cut of the developer's share. Not saying they will, but they could. Less competition !

This new law is bad for ALL involved: customers, developers and small companies.

The only ones benefiting are the EU governments and the larger retailers.

It does NOT change anything for customers OUTSIDE the EU buying from within. It does not change anything for the ones downloading pirated software. And it does not change a thing for Amazon.com, which was the primary goal of this law !

[Francois]

I've been charged VAT (at the going rate) by Simmarket for ages so there's nothing new in this. Disappointingly.. the price quoted by default in Euros is generally what you end up paying in GBP which hardly seems right. How some folk have managed to avoid this in the past (and I know a few that have) is beyond me but there you go. The only sure fire way to know what you're gonna end up paying is to buy (in the UK) from UK vendors as these generally publish the total cost including VAT.

ATB
DaveB:)


Unfortunately it was correct. The UK is part of the EU and hence EU companies were forced to charge their local VAT to UK customers all along. Not simMarket's fault.

[PHo17]

...
This new law is bad for ALL involved: customers, developers and small companies.

The only ones benefiting are the EU governments and the larger retailers.


I couldn't agree more.



It does NOT change anything for customers OUTSIDE the EU buying from within. It does not change anything for the ones downloading pirated software. And it does not change a thing for Amazon.com, which was the primary goal of this law !


Even that may not be true in near future. Didn't you know that EU and USA are planing a free trade pact. This is made in secret. At least in my country (Finland) politicians don't speak anything about this (though those that are at the top of hierarcy must know it). I think it is the same thing in other EU countries. If this comes true this new taxing system will possibly be used also in trade between EU and USA.

Politicians say that they are conserned of constantly growing unimployment. This policy increases it because small companies are the ones that emply most! Only bureaucrats can have confidence in their jobs.

Pekka

[Mickey D]

The new rules only affect direct sales of digital data. If you sell through a third party site the new regulations do NOT apply to the developer. See the UK government Flow Chart. It is quite plain. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/390300/VAT_MOSS_Flow_chart.pdf

[TheGrunt]

Even that may not be true in near future. Didn't you know that EU and USA are planing a free trade pact. This is made in secret. At least in my country (Finland) politicians don't speak anything about this (though those that are at the top of hierarcy must know it). I think it is the same thing in other EU countries. If this comes true this new taxing system will possibly be used also in trade between EU and USA.
Just for the record, the free trade negotiations between EU and USA are by no means a secret. The fact is that those negotiations just started and most likely will take several years IF an agreement is finally achieved. There is probably not much to tell at this point and free trade agreement is a package where practically every industry sector will be dealt separately and both parties do have interests they would like to protect. It is and will be a sweaty negotiation. Most likely the most difficult areas concern all heavy industry products, such as cars and industrial machinery and possibly agriculture products. Local politicians aren't informing people also because the negotiations aren't made on a national level, but solely between EU and USA. The aim is clear, remove the protectionism such as customs and other import-export limiting factors between these two parties.

I'm all for free trade and removing protectionism so I really hope that an agreement is achieved, even if it takes a decade.

I also agree that EU is doing stupid things with many of its regulation. It seems that in most cases these regulations hurt the smaller companies and entrepreneurs the most and larger ones with proper accounting and legal resources thrive. In the long run this drives smaller companies out of business or it simply moves away outside of the EU, where companies don't have to adhere to these rules. All this again decreases competition within EU, diminishes tax revenue and increases unemployment. Improved competition was paradoxically one of the main goals of the EU with its one economic area. Not good.

[Francois]

The new rules only affect direct sales of digital data. If you sell through a third party site the new regulations do NOT apply to the developer. See the UK government Flow Chart. It is quite plain. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/390300/VAT_MOSS_Flow_chart.pdf

Indeed. And maybe you haven't noticed, but 'third parties' cost money.... and are more expensive then providing one's own shop. Not to mention the lack of control over support and possible special deals.
I sell through third parties and will of course continue to do so, but it is NOT the same as having one's own webshop......

[Bunker_Buster]

our politicians and tax bureaucrats have decided that they will rather have people go to welfare and spend tax payers money than to work hard and make an honest buck. Welcome to the beginnings of the new world order, one world government.How many here in the states are finding the "affordable health care act" isn't so affordable.Its a shame we as citizens have lost sight of what the USA was so strongly fought for when we first broke away from the British controls. Now we all have been reeled back in, and everyone is just letting it happen. One day that Constitution of our is going to be all but a memory; a piece of paper in a glass cabinet in some Museum we can go view and think of what once was.You probably think I'm full of it, crazy talk: We all need to wake up!!

[trucker17]

Sorry to hear that Francois (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/member.php?30030-Francois)......
That really sucks.....Hope you an find away for them to keep getting your products....

[IanHenry]

From what I can understand, the British Government are trying to "fix it" so that this doesn't apply to small retailers. It's the big boy's like Amazon and Apple that their gunning for.


Ian

[Francois]

Yes...... Amazon only pays 3-7% in Luxembourg..... But the 'fixing' does not apply to every shop owner and certainly NOT for those outside of the UK. Also, if you have other activities as well, you will not 'fit in' :-(

[Mickey D]

Indeed. And maybe you haven't noticed, but 'third parties' cost money.... and are more expensive then providing one's own shop. Not to mention the lack of control over support and possible special deals.
I sell through third parties and will of course continue to do so, but it is NOT the same as having one's own webshop......

Well of course I've "noticed" and it's my choice if only I don't have the "hassle" of dealing with the EU. Any "cost" is built in to the price and I can let someone else do all the leg work of marketing etc. while I relax and let someone peel me a grape. :)

[Francois]

YOU don't have the hassle in any case, buying from me or elsewhere, but my authors and I have the financial loss in an already skinny business. That is why I am not happy with the EU rulings...... nothing to do with the customers of course.

[bazzar]

I understand your frustrations Francois and as a supplier outside of the EU it is going to affect us as well.

Where previously we sold with no tax to overseas (non Australian) customers, we now have to include the VAT of the country or state of the purchaser.

We have to join a "One Stop Shop" of our choice, selected from a list given by the VAT centre in Europe and report quarterly with payments. If we don't do this we have to register and report separately to every country or sate in which the customer resides. Can you imagine the paper work? This will no doubt incur transaction costs for banks, exchange rates and so on. And all for a taxation system that does not exist in Australia. We have GST at 10% payable on locally consumed goods. Bet that is going to change this year too now.

Great environment in which to attempt to make a small business fly.

Now we have bloody great flocks of government crows pecking at us the second we leave the ground. Another great move forward by the bureaucrats. Thanks very much fellas.

I can't believe however, that withdrawing sales of any kind is going to help anybody. The idiots win, the consumer loses. And you my friend lose most of all. OK we all become tax collectors for a country we have never visited. So what's new these days?

[Francois]

Hello there Down Under !! Yes, exactly !

Well, I am not withdrawing sales altogether, but I AM having to close my shop (already did) to implement another with software that is capable of VAT shenanigans..... and even after doing so, I will NOT sell to European customers because of the added administrative burden (you described it very well). It is just too much work for one guy alone who ALSO has to do other things to stay afloat !

My new shop will sell to non-EU citizens and also non-download products to everybody. Using the 'old VAT system'. Until next year when they probably will also include tangible products nuder the same rules.

The irony of it all is that they THOUGHT they were catching Amazon from not paying taxes. They wanted to punish THEM..... instead Amazon is laughing their heads off, because not only are they not paying ANYTHING in addition..... the CUSTOMERS are paying for the extra taxes ! But ALSO they are getting LOTS of small businesses to sell VIA THEM now and hence generate even more income for them!

This is a LOSE-LOSE plan for small business and indeed, individual FREEDOM of labor, brough upon us by the morons from Brussels !

Don't fear..... FSAddon products can be found on simMarket.com and Aerosoft.com (who both have the VATMOSS arrangement in place I am told) and by FSPilotShop.com (I will need to check their VAT arrangements though, because I am not convinced they are fully licensed for EU sales yet)

Onwards through the fog .......

[bazzar]

What worries me most Francois is that somebody actually thought this would be a good idea. Remind me not to share a lifeboat with them.

Have a great year anyway and bugger the lot of 'em.

[Francois]

Roger that !!! :encouragement:

[huub vink]

What worries me most Francois is that somebody actually thought this would be a good idea. Remind me not to share a lifeboat with them.

Have a great year anyway and bugger the lot of 'em.

As already correctly mentioned by Lawman, this isn't an "European" idea born in the European Parliament . It is there just because the National Ministers of Finance want to have their own share of the taxes. The only way to arrange this for all countries in the European community is in the European Parliament.

Although the practical implementation perhaps doesn't deserve the price for the best Idea of the Century, I think in general it isn't a very odd idea that (local) VAT is applicable on internet sales as well. Especially as tax-rates are decided on National level, based on National circumstances.

The only way to get the implementation much easier is to agree on one single tax-rate inside the European community. But I don't think the readers of the Daily Mail and similar newspapers, will like these sort of decision to be taken in the European Parliament.

I understand the decision taken by Francois and I respect his choices in this, but its a personal decision and really not bigger than that.

Cheers,
Huub

[Dumonceau]

As already correctly mentioned by Lawman, this isn't an "European" idea born in the European Parliament . It is there just because the National Ministers of Finance want to have their own share of the taxes. The only way to arrange this for all countries in the European community is in the European Parliament.

Although the practical implementation perhaps doesn't deserve the price for the best Idea of the Century, I think in general it isn't a very odd idea that (local) VAT is applicable on internet sales as well. Especially as tax-rates are decided on National level, based on National circumstances.

The only way to get the implementation much easier is to agree on one single tax-rate inside the European community. But I don't think the readers of the Daily Mail and similar newspapers, will like these sort of decision to be taken in the European Parliament.

I understand the decision taken by Francois and I respect his choices in this, but its a personal decision and really not bigger than that.

Cheers,
Huub

I couldn't agree more with you Huub! Thanks for sharing this.

Dumonceau

[Francois]

I doubt there will be ANY change taken on this, in spite of growing protest and a growing number of small businesses going out of (European) business.

I have initated request for the additional VAT registration program (MOSS) now, because splitting the shop (ANY shop) into EU and non-EU, digital and non-digital is even a BIGGER burden than the added administration.
I am in no way certain I will be able to manage it all, but refuse to give up without a fight.

[bazzar]

It will affect everybody. Not only EU members. The devs and publishers will need to add the VAT rate of the particular location of a customer to their pricing so care will need to be taken on setting the base price so that the offering is still appealing to a customer. Where a customer did not pay tax (as on our products) they will from now on. For them that is a price hike. Unless they can claim the tax back somehow. With some tax rates exceeding 20% that is effectively an average rise of that amount. Of course the supplier can always reduce the base price to compensate but that means a 20% drop in revenue. And who can afford that these days?

Our government has openly stated that it will be chasing down ways of applying GST (10% goods and service tax in Oz) to all ebay purchases. It will not be too long before a reciprocal agreement is made between Australia and the EU and that GST (or higher) will have to be paid by any Worldwide customer buying ebay goods from Australia.

They are closing the doors on just about every advantage that electronic "shopping" represents to a consumer.

This is a massive opportunity to gather revenue to cover the inadequacies of various governments' financial management of spiraling infrastructure costs, massive public service salary hikes and poor capital purchase decisions.

It is nothing new, the public will bear the burden as usual.

[ejoiner]

why dont you just join with an American partner and host everything on a US or 3rd country web site then sell online?

[bazzar]

Because...

Quote from Taxamo site:

The rules have actually been longstanding, since 2003. If you are, for example, an American digital service supplier to the EU, then you should be already registered for the non-Union MOSS scheme. In the UK, currently, this is called the VAT on eServices (VOES) scheme. This scheme becomes the non-Union scheme on January 1, 2015.
There is already an obligation to level the playing field. The fact that you are in America or China, the obligation and requirement is the same.
What we [HMRC] and other EU tax authorities are doing is if we found that one of these businesses is non-compliant then through treaties arrangements that we have with the jurisdictions, through information exchange or debt recovery, we would then approach the authorities in those other states to take action to help us to get the debt paid.
Those arrangements are going to be reinforced, and strengthened, effectively in the coming months and years to make sure that there aren’t jurisdictions out there where someone could effectively hide and make those supplies without properly declaring.

[Francois]

why dont you just join with an American partner and host everything on a US or 3rd country web site then sell online?


Actually e-shops in the US ALSO have to collect and distribute the VAT of the country in Europe they are selling to ! In fact it is mandatory to do so since 2003 already ! But most chose to ignore that ruling ;-)
It is believed that the EU is having talks with the US to help them enforce that rule from now on !! :dizzy:

[hairyspin]

Actually e-shops in the US ALSO have to collect and distribute the VAT of the country in Europe they are selling to ! In fact it is mandatory to do so since 2003 already ! But most chose to ignore that ruling ;-)
It is believed that the EU is having talks with the US to help them enforce that rule from now on !!

Time for a Boston e-party then? LOL http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/styles/custom/smilies/stirthepot.gif

[vl82m]

At least in the EU you can sue people like PMDG for accidentally (or intentionally) deactivating your product and then not answering to their mails regarding the matter, and generally breaking the EU consumer law regarding software refunds and reselling. Friend of mine from Finland claims to have sued them for this. EU at least has some consumer rights that doesn't allow companies to rip off or inflate their pricing or mistreat their customers, this is a good thing.

No fan of the EU myself though, despite these good things there is way too much bureocracy and many policies that just end up hurting themselves. There is too many for me to go on about, and too political. If certain companies decide to stop selling to EU, they can do so. But I am warning you, not only to EU. To Belarus you also can't sell legally to it's citizens unless you applied for a permission to do so and pay VAT to their government. Even worse :very_drunk::very_drunk::very_drunk:

[Francois]

Hahaha ! Boston e-Party sounds good :untroubled: