VA-12 A-4E Unusual Markings

[Duckie]

VA-12 Flying Ubangis have a couple of interesting distinctions in the A-4 community.

1st, they are the only line unit to fly the A-4E with the forward fuselage makings of the A-4C retained. That is, the US national insignia (star and bar) had the forward fuselage placement same as the "C" and because of this the rescue arrows were also placed as the "C".

VA-12 began flying the A-4 in 1957 and converted from the A-4C to the A-4E in 1965 in just prior to their 1st Westpac cruise aboard USS FDR from June 1965 thru February 1966. Their 2nd distinction was having to give up their "E" models and revert back to the A-4C in March of 1966 upon rotation back to their home port of NAS Cecil.

According to a4skyhawk.com they flew the A-4C thru March 1971 and converted to the A-7E in April 1971.

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-12_zpsf1ece67a.jpg

[expat]

Very interesting Steve - and a nice looking paint as well. Was not aware that squadrons ever "traded down" on variants of the same a/c, nor has it ever registered with me that the stars&bars moved between the C and E models.

[Victory103]

Very interesting Steve - and a nice looking paint as well. Was not aware that squadrons ever "traded down" on variants of the same a/c, nor has it ever registered with me that the stars&bars moved between the C and E models.

Happens in recent times as well with the VFA shuffle, some squadrons trading in F-18C's to A++'s. VF-11 was a "D" Tomcat squadron that had to revert to "B's".

[Duckie]

Very interesting Steve - and a nice looking paint as well. Was not aware that squadrons ever "traded down" on variants of the same a/c, nor has it ever registered with me that the stars&bars moved between the C and E models.

Thanks, expat. Glad you like it.

Re the revert, never thought much about it either until I was reading I up on VA-12. Couldn't find a stated reason but have to assume that at the time VA-12 was sent into harms way they were given the "latest and greatest" available and then, because production of the E/F was not keeping up with demand, they had to leave their "E"s for front line use. The Es that VA-12 flew were among the very first of this version.

Generally, one of the easiest ways to distinguish the early marks (A, B, C) from the later ones at a distance is the location of the star and bar. Of course, within theses two broad subcategories the eye needs to be much sharper the closer they get!

[expat]

For the non-hump I look first at the lines around the canopy and nose first. Fantastic Heineman design (like the others of the period). Of all, the "C" is probably best looking to my eye.

[Deacon211]

Thanks, expat. Glad you like it.

Re the revert, never thought much about it either until I was reading I up on VA-12. Couldn't find a stated reason but have to assume that at the time VA-12 was sent into harms way they were given the "latest and greatest" available and then, because production of the E/F was not keeping up with demand, they had to leave their "E"s for front line use. The Es that VA-12 flew were among the very first of this version.

Generally, one of the easiest ways to distinguish the early marks (A, B, C) from the later ones at a distance is the location of the star and bar. Of course, within theses two broad subcategories the eye needs to be much sharper the closer they get!

There is probably some truth to that.

Even in non-war times, it isn't unheard of to "trade in" the squadron's jets. Depending on where the aircraft are in their maintenance cycle, a deploying squadron might take their jets with them or just send the pilots and leave the planes with the returning squadron doing the same. Alternately, a deploying squadron might, if the planes aren't to be traded in, steal some aircraft from a not about to be deployed squadron, so that they don't take any hangar queens into what might be harm's way.

If the planes are fairly different, then that's less likely. If they are mostly similar, then it saves dragging a whole squadron's planes via tanker(s) across the pond...twice.

[fsafranek]

VA-12 Flying Ubangis have a couple of interesting distinctions in the A-4 community.

1st, they are the only line unit to fly the A-4E with the forward fuselage makings of the A-4C retained. That is, the US national insignia (star and bar) had the forward fuselage placement same as the "C" and because of this the rescue arrows were also placed as the "C".
That is interesting about reverting back to an older model. In times of war...

I used to always use the insignia location as a quick guide as to whether it was a C or an E but from all the research for the Virtavia release I found a few exceptions. VA-72 "Blue Hawks", VA-81 "Sunliners", and VA-93 "Blue Blazers" all had a few A-4E's with the stars-n-bars on the forward fuselage. Haven't checked to see if they were of a particular serial number range or transferred from another unit.

Another example was VA-46 "Clansmen" off the USS Forrestal.

13636

This WIP was started after I had finished my F textures for the release so it was too late to beg for a change in the texture mapping so textures going around the top would still work. These don't so it will probably not be finished. But who knows.

Thanks for painting VA-12. :encouragement:
:ernaehrung004:

[Duckie]

expat, I'm also fond of the C's. They certainly had some of the most colorful markings.

Interesting insight, Deacon211 and Victory103. Thank you for sharing.

[Duckie]

That is interesting about reverting back to an older model. In times of war...

I used to always use the insignia location as a quick guide as to whether it was a C or an E but from all the research for the Virtavia release I found a few exceptions. VA-72 "Blue Hawks", VA-81 "Sunliners", and VA-93 "Blue Blazers" all had a few A-4E's with the stars-n-bars on the forward fuselage. Haven't checked to see if they were of a particular serial number range or transferred from another unit.

Another example was VA-46 "Clansmen" off the USS Forrestal.

This WIP was started after I had finished my F textures for the release so it was too late to beg for a change in the texture mapping so textures going around the top would still work. These don't so it will probably not be finished. But who knows.

Thanks for painting VA-12. :encouragement:
:ernaehrung004:

Hey Frank, thanks for that info. From a purely aesthetic point of view, one of the reasons I like the C is the star and bar placement. I was stoked to find the VA-12 markings but until now was not able to find anymore Es like this. Definitely will look into it. Thanks :jump:

[delta_lima]

Generally, one of the easiest ways to distinguish the early marks (A, B, C) from the later ones at a distance is the location of the star and bar. Of course, within theses two broad subcategories the eye needs to be much sharper the closer they get!

The nose on the C and E are markedly different, the C had a windscreen wiper, the E did not, 3 pylons on the C, 5 on the E, etc. And of course, the national markings, which brings me to my comment - I learned for the first time, that the VA-12 and others' Es were painted like a C ... I never knew that! Visually, it makes that space kinda busy, and see why they were moved aft. But hey, to each their own, and as it turns out, was historically accurate - so I think we'll see a few Es with fwd-painted national insignia.

Thanks Steve and Frank!

oh, and yes - nice livery ... goes without saying .... :ernaehrung004:

dl

[ejoiner]

For the non-hump I look first at the lines around the canopy and nose first. Fantastic Heineman design (like the others of the period). Of all, the "C" is probably best looking to my eye.

A-C to me are easy to distinguish because of the shorter stubby nose. Nice look IMHO. E had a sharper, angular nose and of course eventually the hump.

[ejoiner]

VA-12 Flying Ubangis have a couple of interesting distinctions in the A-4 community.

1st, they are the only line unit to fly the A-4E with the forward fuselage makings of the A-4C retained. That is, the US national insignia (star and bar) had the forward fuselage placement same as the "C" and because of this the rescue arrows were also placed as the "C".

VA-12 began flying the A-4 in 1957 and converted from the A-4C to the A-4E in 1965 in just prior to their 1st Westpac cruise aboard USS FDR from June 1965 thru February 1966. Their 2nd distinction was having to give up their "E" models and revert back to the A-4C in March of 1966 upon rotation back to their home port of NAS Cecil.

According to a4skyhawk.com they flew the A-4C thru March 1971 and converted to the A-7E in April 1971.

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-12_zpsf1ece67a.jpg

based on the tail number, I wonder if that is a CAG bird with unusual markings? Seems not all the VA-12 E's had the front markings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/A-4E_Skyhawk_from_VA-12_in_flight_over_the_Med_in_1965.jpeg

[Duckie]

Very informative guys. I have to more ways to search the www because I sure not finding some of this stuff and, believe me, I've looked!

[fsafranek]

A-C to me are easy to distinguish because of the shorter stubby nose. Nice look IMHO. E had a sharper, angular nose and of course eventually the hump.
Some images don't provide a clear shot of the nose. And something with a hump could also be an "L". And you can't always trust image captions.


based on the tail number, I wonder if that is a CAG bird with unusual markings? Seems not all the VA-12 E's had the front markings.
From my experience CAG birds are numbered with 00 and it's the nose number to watch for. Like 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, etc. And if it is the real CAG and not just the squadron CO's aircraft they will have the usual rainbow of colors included somewhere in the scheme to distinguish them (and CAG spelled out, they like everyone to know who they are). The tail number is just the last four digits of the serial number.
:ernaehrung004:

[Deacon211]

Some images don't provide a clear shot of the nose. And something with a hump could also be an "L". And you can't always trust image captions.


From my experience CAG birds are numbered with 00 and it's the nose number to watch for. Like 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, etc. And if it is the real CAG and not just the squadron CO's aircraft they will have the usual rainbow of colors included somewhere in the scheme to distinguish them (and CAG spelled out, they like everyone to know who they are). The tail number is just the last four digits of the serial number.
:ernaehrung004:


The 00 birds were generally referred to as "Double Nuts". In the Training Command CNATRA actually had a jet with 000, referred to as "Triple Nuts".

[Duckie]

Couple of E's and...

A-4E VA-12 Flying Ubangis

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-12_2_zpsc99b5d23.jpg

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-12_1_zps969b2c4d.jpg

A-4E VA-93 Blue Blazers

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-93_E_1_zps9bb5fc00.jpg

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VA-93_E_2_zps0065b452.jpg

...

[Duckie]

... and an F


A-4F VMA-322 Fighting Game Cocks

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VMA-322_1_zps4cbc1369.jpg

http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586/Duckie1021/VMA-322_2_zpsf4853e04.jpg

[expat]

Steve - these are exceptionally nice!

[Duckie]

Steve - these are exceptionally nice!

Thank you expat.

[Victory103]

Some images don't provide a clear shot of the nose. And something with a hump could also be an "L". And you can't always trust image captions.


From my experience CAG birds are numbered with 00 and it's the nose number to watch for. Like 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, etc. And if it is the real CAG and not just the squadron CO's aircraft they will have the usual rainbow of colors included somewhere in the scheme to distinguish them (and CAG spelled out, they like everyone to know who they are). The tail number is just the last four digits of the serial number.
:ernaehrung004:

CAG:x00
CO: x01
XO: x02

The "rainbow" is supposed to represent each squadron in the air wing, although this doesn't always work out if 2 squadrons share the same primary colors. Marines do something entirely different, but don't they always???

[delta_lima]

Just saw you posted these to the library Steve - muchas gracias, man! :applause:

dl

[Duckie]

Just saw you posted these to the library Steve - muchas gracias, man! :applause:

dl

De nada, amigo!